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So I know the answer is because it would make the model line very complicated but fluff wise it’s a bit strange that old marines can have their weapons upgraded to the new bolters or use the new bikes or ATV or armour etc. Also the tactics of primaris are very strict as opposed to the war gear flexibility that old marines had.

Is there any Fluffy reason for this. And before anyone says that primaris are stronger, for that to work that would mean that the new bolt rifles are super heavy and powerful, more so that a heavy weapon like a heavy bolter or a heavy plasm or multi melts. You know what a heavy weapon is.

I suppose why aren’t old marines integrated into primaris units etc, the level of segregation seems over the top

Because Cawl is a prima donna and won't let his special Mary Sue's share their toys.

Not even being facetious. Mary Sue Marines have speshul extra glands and stuff which make them stronger and tougher than The Most Holy Emperor Of Mankinds Filthy Flawed Attempts At Astartes, so their wargear is literally too much for Oldmarines to handle.

Oh, and when Rowboat came back from the dead via Xenos Witchcraft, from a species of Xenos explicitly known for their mental control powers, everyone just went "Ok that seems fine" when he decided to totally up-end over 10,000 years of Tradition that HE HIMSELF WROTE, and then do the exact thing Horus did (take command of multiple legion sized formations of Astartes) right before he went on his Humbug and crippled the "on track to a second golden age of humanity" civilisation of Mankind.. Because, as we all know, the Imperium is very much a "It's ok to admit you made a mistake, you'll do better next time, also WTF we love Xenos now" form of Governance.

When a "Primarch" magically comes back from the dead with the help of Xenos witches and every single High Lord didn't Cyclonic Torpedo every single world of Ultramar and any world within a trillion light years of such was the point I realised that the 40k writers simply didn't care anymore.

In short, don't try to come up with non-setting breaking canonical explanations because GW sure as heck didn't.

Because the classic marines are smart and don't want to screw with their elegant logistics chain that doesn't have to track ammunition for 235 different types of Bolt weapons, and shares munitions with their common ally (and occasional foe) the Imperial Guard/PDF forces.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because Cawl is a prima donna and won't let his special Mary Sue's share their toys.

Not even being facetious. Mary Sue Marines have speshul extra glands and stuff which make them stronger and tougher than The Most Holy Emperor Of Mankinds Filthy Flawed Attempts At Astartes, so their wargear is literally too much for Oldmarines to handle.

Oh, and when Rowboat came back from the dead via Xenos Witchcraft, from a species of Xenos explicitly known for their mental control powers, everyone just went "Ok that seems fine" when he decided to totally up-end over 10,000 years of Tradition that HE HIMSELF WROTE, and then do the exact thing Horus did (take command of multiple legion sized formations of Astartes) right before he went on his Humbug and crippled the "on track to a second golden age of humanity" civilisation of Mankind.. Because, as we all know, the Imperium is very much a "It's ok to admit you made a mistake, you'll do better next time, also WTF we love Xenos now" form of Governance.

When a "Primarch" magically comes back from the dead with the help of Xenos witches and every single High Lord didn't Cyclonic Torpedo every single world of Ultramar and any world within a trillion light years of such was the point I realised that the 40k writers simply didn't care anymore.

In short, don't try to come up with non-setting breaking canonical explanations because GW sure as heck didn't.

While I fully agree with your opinion, I think they have (often retroactively) added enough story to help explain many of those issues.

The new Primaris armour I belive has hardware compatability issues with old marines (ie:not backwards compatible with the black carapace). Some of the books do talk about issued with the older power armor (Mk II/III) having difficulty working with new versions, so I can accept Primaris having similar problems

There are other times Eldar and Imperium have worked together and it not be declared Heresy as long as goals where shared (Crimsom Fists, Fulgrim pre HH was willing to sit and talk with them) and the tech did come with/from Crawl, so it was not Xenos tech. No one knows how the Eldar were involved except Gilliman, the Eldar themselves, and "maybe" Crawl. So no one to call Xenos witchcraft.

Gilliman wrote the codex right after the HH, as it's now been 10,000 years and the situation has changed, him amending it to fit the change does make some sense.


While I fully agree to your position, and I myself am not a big fan of all the the new Primaris Marines OP/Mary sue stuff, there are ways to in-universe explain without breaking the story as bad as the new Star Wars did

Okay but come on, they can’t even get new bolters???

mrFickle wrote:
Okay but come on, they can’t even get new bolters???

No.

Now, please report to your local Inquisitor for... education.

 Dysartes wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Okay but come on, they can’t even get new bolters???

No.

Now, please report to your local Inquisitor for... education.

You are to sit in the BLUE chair.

There is no in-universe explanation. The explanation is "because those are the models we sell".

There is litteraly no reason. It's all game mechanics.

It doesnt even make sense why primaris units cant use different guns, let alone first born marines using primaris guns.

The primaris unit structure works in legion sized forces, but not the tiny chapters we have in 40k, where sending even a full company of a mere 100 marines is a rare thing

 BaconCatBug wrote:

When a "Primarch" magically comes back from the dead with the help of Xenos witches and every single High Lord didn't Cyclonic Torpedo every single world of Ultramar and any world within a trillion light years of such was the point I realised that the 40k writers simply didn't care anymore.

This isn't quite what happened. One of the BL books notes about how several of them resumed politicking after his return; their problem was that whilst they did this, he wandered in to see the Emperor and was confirmed as his acting voice/regent/authority. Given that all their positions are derived from the decree of the Emperor, this effectively undercut any legal power play they could make. Combined with the Primarch's unholy ability to wow most of them into submission by sheer presence? No chance. The Fabricator-General was the only one who might have had that level of independent power, and Rowboat is too astute a politician to alienate him to the point that he felt the need to assert himself that strongly.

This is where I think GW dropped the ball, having Primaris just be a new type of Space Marine, rather than their own new thing. Where Space Marines would be the stop-gap attempt at a transhuman super-soldier the Primaris could be the replacement program that had been in development hell because they were going for mass production on the level of the Great Crusade without all the psychological issues and without the tainted geneseed of the existing Imperial transhuman lines. Making Primaris a force in-between the Astra Militarum and the Astartes Chapters they wouldn't be functionally immortal like the Astartes, but they would be fielded in more numerous forces and contain both enhanced men and women.

I think your suggestion would be a wonderful way to start a civil war among the Original Space Marines and the Primaris one (do you remember the fate of the Thunder Warriors?) and I think this explain why the Games Workshop didn't do that: they didn't wanted create such civil war in the Imperium; at least not in this moment.
Nevertheless that scenario is intriguing and the decision to give to the Primaris Space Marine a better equipment than the Original ones keeps open the gateway to such possibility.

The point of primaris was to sell new models, they should have just re sculpted the whole marine range to the quality of primaris.

Or
I’d quite enjoy a story line where the primaris all turn in the first born marines and wipe them out. Having both just doesn’t make sense.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
There is no in-universe explanation. The explanation is "because those are the models we sell".

And, more specifically, because they wanted to invalidate the entire secondary market.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Because the classic marines are smart and don't want to screw with their elegant logistics chain that doesn't have to track ammunition for 235 different types of Bolt weapons, and shares munitions with their common ally (and occasional foe) the Imperial Guard/PDF forces.

^^^^ This.

Actually, I think the question is: why don't the primaris
muscleheads have the good sense to learn from their more experienced predecessors? Like maybe have one guy in each squad bring along an anti-tank weapon just in case, I don't know, they run into an enemy tank? Or maybe bring some melta-bombs? Why can't the big goofballs figure out how to use a jump pack? Or cram their slightly larger bulk into the beautiful classic lines of a Land Raider instead of those ugly floaty metal bawkses. I mean, if terminators and centurions can do it......

It's possiable all the differant boltguns fire the same bullet. or a remarkably similer amount, take for example the Incursor and infiltrators. the differance mainly seems to be stuff like the scope etc. chances are the BULLET is the same

BrianDavion wrote:
It's possiable all the differant boltguns fire the same bullet. or a remarkably similer amount, take for example the Incursor and infiltrators. the differance mainly seems to be stuff like the scope etc. chances are the BULLET is the same

The magazine clearly isn't, so the supply chain is at the very least clogged up with Servitors having to load/unload/reload magazines depending on which bolt weapons they need more ammo for.

Same as most of the other primaris lore... It's dumb.

Did Gman get the Primaris upgrade? Is it possible to "upgrade" a Primarch? I would think no, but CAWL is CAWL.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did Gman get the Primaris upgrade? Is it possible to "upgrade" a Primarch? I would think no, but CAWL is CAWL.

Canonically, no. So it won't happen until GW decides they want to sell another Guilliman mini.

Hecaton wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did Gman get the Primaris upgrade? Is it possible to "upgrade" a Primarch? I would think no, but CAWL is CAWL.

Canonically, no. So it won't happen until GW decides they want to sell another Guilliman mini.

So does that mean RG can only use an old school bolter and not a new primaris one?

mrFickle wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did Gman get the Primaris upgrade? Is it possible to "upgrade" a Primarch? I would think no, but CAWL is CAWL.

Canonically, no. So it won't happen until GW decides they want to sell another Guilliman mini.

So does that mean RG can only use an old school bolter and not a new primaris one?

gulliman uses his own custom crafted equipment. Primarchs have NEVER used the mass manafactured tools of their followers. each piece of his wargear is a custom crafted artifact

Can Gman get any bigger? I mean he is already bigger than a Rhino, and a Landraider, and a Repulsor now that I think about it.

But honestly, can you see the lore writers at GW going, "Yeah, so when Bobby wasn't looking, Cawl slipped something in his drink, and when he woke up he had all new parts and was about 3 feet taller"?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because Cawl is a prima donna and won't let his special Mary Sue's share their toys.

Not even being facetious. Mary Sue Marines have speshul extra glands and stuff which make them stronger and tougher than The Most Holy Emperor Of Mankinds Filthy Flawed Attempts At Astartes, so their wargear is literally too much for Oldmarines to handle.

Oh, and when Rowboat came back from the dead via Xenos Witchcraft, from a species of Xenos explicitly known for their mental control powers, everyone just went "Ok that seems fine" when he decided to totally up-end over 10,000 years of Tradition that HE HIMSELF WROTE, and then do the exact thing Horus did (take command of multiple legion sized formations of Astartes) right before he went on his Humbug and crippled the "on track to a second golden age of humanity" civilisation of Mankind.. Because, as we all know, the Imperium is very much a "It's ok to admit you made a mistake, you'll do better next time, also WTF we love Xenos now" form of Governance.

When a "Primarch" magically comes back from the dead with the help of Xenos witches and every single High Lord didn't Cyclonic Torpedo every single world of Ultramar and any world within a trillion light years of such was the point I realised that the 40k writers simply didn't care anymore.

In short, don't try to come up with non-setting breaking canonical explanations because GW sure as heck didn't.

Calm down there Anon; you are not on the correct channel.

OP: As an old man myself, firstborn would not want to adapt the tactics of the Primaris because they are too rigid for each unit. Tactical marines would certainly balk at giving up everything that they trained for to just become basic riflemen, the flexibility is what they trained for over a century for.

For wargear; a little less sense is made. While firsborn simply couldn't fit in Mark X armor, they would have no problems with the guns. Vehicles would also be a non-issue for either to drive/ride unless there was an incompatibility with the armors(which would not make any sense for transports). It should be completely feasible for Tactical Bill to trade his Plasma gun for a Plasma Incinerator, or for the Devastator squad to all take Accelerator Autocannons. Even Bjorn the fell handed could have his sarcophagus plugged into a Redemptor dreadnought (although the fluff might still have Redemptors burning out pilots so he may not want to do this).

In short: Firstborn are trained to be tactically flexible at all time while Primaris are dogmaticly locked into the role they chose for the day. There is little reason for why wargear othan that power armor to be segregated.

I personally think it's stupid to moan an' bitch about the Primaris because they surpass the original Marines the Emperor created. Because as far as I know, the original Astartes were sort of like beta-version of Astartes. And eventually even in 30k era they were eventually going to introduce Primaris.

As for how Cawl surpassing the genious Empz in making a better Astartes design? Well he had 10000 years as opposed to Empz's two centuries. And there's still the superior Custodes that no one has matched. I get that understanding of technology, etc... has dwindled from 30k era to 40k era, but does it always have to be so grim derp level that absolutely nothing new and better gets done in 10000 fuсking years. It's preposterous that it would be pure downhill for that long a time for an Imperium of millions of worlds were no innovation would happen. It's just not realistic.

Its also worth remembering that the Emp allowed Corax to play with the marine coding and the new marines were slightly larger and tougher (and became wracked with mutations thanks to alpha legion sabotage)
They sound familiar to me. So with 10K years he managed what Corax did in a few, updated a few designs and did a lot of stockpiling. And didnt get alpha-ed

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
I personally think it's stupid to moan an' bitch about the Primaris because they surpass the original Marines the Emperor created. Because as far as I know, the original Astartes were sort of like beta-version of Astartes. And eventually even in 30k era they were eventually going to introduce Primaris.

As for how Cawl surpassing the genious Empz in making a better Astartes design? Well he had 10000 years as opposed to Empz's two centuries. And there's still the superior Custodes that no one has matched. I get that understanding of technology, etc... has dwindled from 30k era to 40k era, but does it always have to be so grim derp level that absolutely nothing new and better gets done in 10000 fuсking years. It's preposterous that it would be pure downhill for that long a time for an Imperium of millions of worlds were no innovation would happen. It's just not realistic.

Of course there are those out there who make technological discoveries and innovations and have done so for the past 10,000 years. The issue is that the Imperium considers it heresy and slaughters the people that did it, their families, friends, and probably anyone who has seen the new device. That is the whole point of the "grim dark." The Imperium has become so backwards that it actively weakens itself by shunning and destroying anything new even if it could help them.

Then Primaris came and all of that lore and history went out the window essentially.

what I find funny is that statistically speaking, the fluff says that the Astartes aren't even the best. The Thunder Warriors were FAR superior even to the Astartes. Only the Custodes were capable of beating them in combat. It wasn't until he created the Primarchs that the Astartes started coming into their own. Do I have the fluff even close on that? (Going of Lexicanum/memory here)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
what I find funny is that statistically speaking, the fluff says that the Astartes aren't even the best. The Thunder Warriors were FAR superior even to the Astartes. Only the Custodes were capable of beating them in combat. It wasn't until he created the Primarchs that the Astartes started coming into their own. Do I have the fluff even close on that? (Going of Lexicanum/memory here)

Also going from memory here, I thought the Thunder Warriors were physically more powerful than the Space Marines, but the Marines were more stable and would effectively live longer which made them the better option for sending possibly millions of them into the far reaches of galaxy to forge the Imperium.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
what I find funny is that statistically speaking, the fluff says that the Astartes aren't even the best. The Thunder Warriors were FAR superior even to the Astartes. Only the Custodes were capable of beating them in combat. It wasn't until he created the Primarchs that the Astartes started coming into their own. Do I have the fluff even close on that? (Going of Lexicanum/memory here)

The Thunder Warriors were bigger and stronger, but they were not built for space combat and their bodies often broke down relatively rapidly, leading to either insanity and/or deformities and death.