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Could "DAoT Mankind" and "Imperium Empowered" armies actually work in-game?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




DAoT Mankind: somewhat self-explanatory; basically humanity as it was during the Dark Age of Technology and before the Age of Strife with all its tech that could challenge the Aeldari and maybe even the Necrons
Imperium Empowered: no Horus Heresy, all Primarchs alive and loyal, Emperor leading mankind, no religion nonsense, much less technophobia, a little less xenophobia (at least towards non-hostile races)


Could such armies as these actually work in the 40k game? Even I think it might be crossing the border into straight-up over-powered. Nevertheless I'm keen to hear from others on the subject.

Imperium Empowered would be something to see: Space Marines with the numbers of the Astra Militarum would be a thing. Now imagine them all with Primaris stats (thanks Cawl ol' buddy) and equipped with Plasma Guns and Power Swords as standard issue.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sure they could work.

Whether they are overpowered or underpowered would somewhat depend on point costs and army weaknesses, really.

Superior technology translating presumably into better / more offensive (and defensive?) stats in the game would presumably mean more points per model at the most basic level of game-balance, no?



Now, fielding Primaris in "Guard-Numbers" (game-play wise) would undercut that idea. But miniature-numbers on the table in the game don't really reflect the lore one on one.

The, say, Marines vs. Orks or Tyranid Horde battle in the lore is surely even more skewed in numbers in any given BL novel or so, then it would be in the game. Similarly, a 2000 points Imperial Guard army, while it can by relatively high-model count in the game, is a far cry from what the "Astra Militarum war maschine" would be in the lore in any given battle.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/16 07:20:44


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Imagining all 18 Primarchs on the field with 9th edition rules (courtesy of another website) - it'd be insane, but the fun kind of insane. It's still a thought of mine to get all 18 Primarch models (once Jaghatai Khan finally gets one!), and use the aforementioned converted rules for them in a homebrew game against as many players as would be fair. Moving on...

I made the topic because I've been typing up a DIY chapter that breaks from the status-quo in a number of ways, lore-wise and game-rules (nothing terribly OP though). It got me thinking about the concept of an army where almost everything goes right for mankind; we get our former level of science and technology back, no one goes traitor, and the Emperor continues to lead mankind well into M42. An army that fields Astartes in Guard numbers with Necron-like weaponry, and Tau-like robots ranging from big to OMFG.

It's fun to think about it.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ok, but what's the idea?

Primarchs tend to be 400-ish points?


So are you planning to make Mortarion, Magnus, etc.. 110-ish points with the current stats to fit 18 into 2000 points? Sure, that's incredibly OP and I don't really see the point.

Are you planning to play a 7,500-ish points game to fit 18 Primarchs? That'll probably get the Primarchs killed really quickly and again seems somewhat pointless?

Neither version seems to make for very interesting games IMO.

Same for the super-Marines at Guardsmen-point equivalents (assuming the opposing army isn't also equally changed to provide a balanced match-up).



For a one-sided "these-guys-steamroll everything"-fantasy, a novel or short story might be the better outlet than a tabletop game (and even there the lack of stakes and risk will make it difficult to create an interesting narrative).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/16 08:48:35


 
   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




"Imperium Empowered" is actually called the Great Crusade and basically in 40K rules Primaris with Forgeworld tanks would come pretty close . Primaris because of special and heavy weapons squads.

I'm not sure Dark Age of technology humans could rival the Eldar, let alone Necrons. They were superior to the Imperium for sure, but still so insignificant that the Eldar empire didn't care for them.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







So...you want to play 30k?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




So...you want to play 30k?


It's a thought, sure. The heresy30k website has converted the rules to 9th edition.
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






Sgt. Cortez wrote:
"Imperium Empowered" is actually called the Great Crusade and basically in 40K rules Primaris with Forgeworld tanks would come pretty close . Primaris because of special and heavy weapons squads.

I'm not sure Dark Age of technology humans could rival the Eldar, let alone Necrons. They were superior to the Imperium for sure, but still so insignificant that the Eldar empire didn't care for them.


That's quite untrue, lorewise. The peak of humanity during the DAoT was quite trivially capable of reorganizing solar systems, building stellar superstructures, obliterating empires on a whim and so on, with the poetic note of flying too close to the sun like Icarus before everything comes down in flames due to their hubris remaining the core moral of the story. It's not that the Eldar didn't care about them as a galactic superpower, it's more about the Eldar as a galactic superpower themselves being too preoccupied with their millenia-long descent into degenerate insanity that was about to go down and give birth to Slaanesh a bit later. Somewhere between M20-M25 as the Men of Iron went into full on murder mode where eating stars was an average Tuesday it took a galactic alliance of many species and civilisations to stop them. Humanity had plenty of tech that was individually just as much space magic as that of the oldest races, even if it wasn't yet at the scale that they'd had during the War in Heavens.

I can't remember the name of one pretty cool novel off the top of my head that was set during the present M40 timeline but included a starship of immense age, which turns out to be a sentient DAoT machine that some techpriests manage to communicate with while they are under attack by an Eldar fleet. After some cooing, the ship basically goes "ugh, fine I'll save you dummies, but it's not like I like you or anything" and casually takes over the whole fleet before surprising the Eldar with space magic BS weapons that split the alien ships into various chronological versions of themselves and forces them into the same space, annihilating most of them in a spectacular shower of wibbly wobbly quantum dynamics while poor physics students cry in the corner.

DAoT was pretty intense

If we're thinking about these things in game, sure. What game is another matter entirely, as is the subject matter of the battle being modelled. If you want to have a slugging match between enhanced super soldiers or robots beating regular folks, it's not too different from Custodes hacking Guardsmen, it's about points and mission objectives. If you want to reflect super weapons, AI ships, robot legions or swarms of nanoscale killer bots you'd be better off playing BFG or Epic, but there's nothing inherently more difficult in representing human space magic tech in games than space elf space magic or space skeleton robot space magic as such.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/16 09:26:46


#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Falls Church, VA

I remember in one of the Gods of Mars books there was a duel between a DAOT human battleship (the Mechanicus didn't even know what it had until it had to go beastmode) and an Eldar voidcruiser.

The Eldar vessel does well until the ship in question goes into "DAOT" mode and starts employing everything it had (which the Mechanicus didn't know existed/didn't fully understand). The Eldar ship is finally hit (since its maneuverability and holofields had protected it entirely thusfar) and damaged - though not destroyed - by a black hole cannon that reverses time (essentially, the voidcruiser dodges the shot, and then time is locally reversed around the ship to make the dodge less effective, pulling the Eldar ship back to where it was before the shot landed). The Eldar ship, still capable of maneuvering and firing, decides then it is better to land boarding parties and withdraw, which it accomplishes successfully.

This indicates to me that DAOT humanity was likely a match for the Eldar, but a battle between them would be amazing, like watching two incredibly skilled fighters duel.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/16 13:15:09


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Can you come up with rules to insert a modern Stryker Brigade Combat Team into De Bellis Antiquitatis? Probably.

Is a game system intended to model ancient warfare going to do a good job handling how a modern force operates? Definitely not.

DAoT is supposed to be a whole different era of technology; you might be able to shoehorn it into the 40K system but I don't think you could both do it justice and have a fun game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/16 13:33:37


 
   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

 Sherrypie wrote:
I can't remember the name of one pretty cool novel off the top of my head that was set during the present M40 timeline but included a starship of immense age, which turns out to be a sentient DAoT machine that some techpriests manage to communicate with while they are under attack by an Eldar fleet. After some cooing, the ship basically goes "ugh, fine I'll save you dummies, but it's not like I like you or anything" and casually takes over the whole fleet before surprising the Eldar with space magic BS weapons that split the alien ships into various chronological versions of themselves and forces them into the same space, annihilating most of them in a spectacular shower of wibbly wobbly quantum dynamics while poor physics students cry in the corner.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I remember in one of the Gods of Mars books there was a duel between a DAOT human battleship (the Mechanicus didn't even know what it had until it had to go beastmode) and an Eldar voidcruiser.


That's the Ark Mechanicus Speranza from the Forge of Mars trilogy (which they 'found' buried beneath a forgeworld, and destroyed that forgeworld while taking off...). There's also a DAoT space hulk in Death of Integrity...
One of the Ollanius Persson short stories has him stuck backwards in time, witnessing the effects of DAoT weapons (which includes taking 'bites' out of the warp).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic - "UR-025, Imperial Robot" from Blackstone Fortress is a
Spoiler:
Man of Iron, and his tabletop rules aren't too bad (but he's much more dangerous in the novels).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/10/16 13:47:09


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Falls Church, VA

My memory of that event is considerably different from sherrypie. I only remember a single eldar ship, and I only remember it getting damaged before landing boarding parties and withdrawing.

I do remember the timey-wimey shenanigans and black hole cannons though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/16 14:45:39


 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My memory of that event is considerably different from sherrypie. I only remember a single eldar ship, and I only remember it getting damaged before landing boarding parties and withdrawing.

I do remember the timey-wimey shenanigans and black hole cannons though.


It's the same story we're talking about anyway, so something along those lines. Main point remains, the timey-wimey cannon from a singular DAoT ship that's not operating seriously can scare the living daylights out of both the Eldar and general relativity

#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Falls Church, VA

 Sherrypie wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My memory of that event is considerably different from sherrypie. I only remember a single eldar ship, and I only remember it getting damaged before landing boarding parties and withdrawing.

I do remember the timey-wimey shenanigans and black hole cannons though.


It's the same story we're talking about anyway, so something along those lines. Main point remains, the timey-wimey cannon from a singular DAoT ship that's not operating seriously can scare the living daylights out of both the Eldar and general relativity


That is certainly true!
   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

Spoiler:
Priests of Mars wrote:The flanks of the Speranza shuddered as a weapon system built into its superstructure ground upwards on heavy duty rails. A vast gun tube rose from the angled planes of the Ark Mechanicus like the great menhir of some tribal place of worship being lifted into place. Power readouts, the likes of which had rarely been seen in the Imperium since before the wars of Unity, bloomed within the weapon and a pair of circling tori described twisting arcs around the tapered end of the unveiled barrel.

Elements of the technology that had gone into their construction would have been familiar to some of the more esoteric branches of black hole research and relativistic temporal arcana, but their assembled complexity would have baffled even the Fabricator General on Mars. Pulsing streams of purple-hued anti-matter and graviton pumps combined in unknowable ways in the heart of a reactor that drew its power from the dark matter that lurked in the spaces between the stars. It was a gun designed to crack open the stately leviathans of ancient void war, a starship killer that delivered the ultimate coup de grace.

Without any command authority from the bridge of the Speranza, the weapon unleashed a silent pulse that covered the distance to the Starblade at the speed of light.

But even that wasn’t fast enough to catch a ship as nimble as one built by the bonesingers of Biel-Tan and guided by the prescient sight of a farseer. The pulse of dark energy coalesced a hundred kilometres off the vessel’s stern and a miniature black hole exploded into life, dragging in everything within its reach with howling force. Stellar matter, light and gravity were crushed as they were drawn in and destroyed, and even the Starblade’s speed and manoeuvrability weren’t enough to save it completely as the secondary effect of the weapon’s deadly energies brushed over its solar sail. Chrono-weaponry shifted its target a nanosecond into the past, by which time the subatomic reactions within every molecule had shifted microscopically and forced identical neutrons into the same quantum space.

Such a state of being was untenable on a fundamental level, and the resultant release of energy was catastrophic for the vast majority of objects hit by such a weapon. Though on the periphery of the streaming waves of chronometric energy, the Starblade’s solar mast detonated as though its internal structure had been threaded with explosive charges. The sail tore free of the ship, ghost images of its previous existence flickering as the psycho-conductive wraithbone screamed in its death throes. Blue flame geysered from the topside of the eldar vessel and the craft lurched away from the force of the blast.

Its previously distorted and fragmentary outline became solid, and the circling captains of the Kotov Fleet wasted no time in loosing salvo after salvo of torpedoes at the newly revealed warship.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Falls Church, VA

Yeah, so it was a single Eldar warship, which initially dodged the shot, and then was chronometrically reverted to be hit, at which point it was catastrophically damaged but not outright destroyed. Indeed, it even survives the ensuing barrage of weapons fire from the rest of the fleet and manages to bring its holofields back online and escape (based on a longer excerpt I was able to find).

Scary stuff! Thanks beast_gts.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/19 15:38:45


 
   
 
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