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Are eradicators all that good?

I see 'every one' say they are bonkers. But somewhere on here a thread pointed out they compare porly to landspeeder melta, and presumably the humble attack bike. I could not find the thread so I thought it better to start a new one now that we have all the points.

How do they compare? I certanly like them more then devestators with melta. They cost less, have T5, assault weapons and can shoot twice if they stand stil. That last one seems strong to me, doubling the damage output.

If you happen to think they are that good, what is the reason? And will they be getting a huge nerd or point increase in the future?

A little bit of conspiracy theory but I have seen reditthreads by previus GW employees being asked to price new models cheaply to sell product. In the 'old days'. From a game perspective that makes little sense. After they introduction on 8th edition they have focused on good gameplay and a balansed game, and sales are through the roof. I do not know why they missed the ball on eradicators. Everything else in necron/sm codex seems balansed.

Eradiacators can shoot if they move but they can not advance and shoot(anymore). they 6 can do 21.3 damage to a knight in 1 turn.
Here is a good goonhammer article about the ridiculous damage they can do.
https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-eradicators/

 nordsturmking wrote:
Eradiacators can shoot if they move but they can not advance and shoot(anymore). they 6 can do 21.3 damage to a knight in 1 turn.
Here is a good goonhammer article about the ridiculous damage they can do.
https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-eradicators/

They are an asset to each SM army.
Never go out without Eradicators is the saying.
This is the unit which is always on top of my enemy priority list.
Other armies can be a bit jealous about such a unit.

OK. But is the consus that things dies easaly in 9th edition, or that those are really udercosted?

How do they compare to the other usual suspects?

What would they need to cost to be within the regular baseline?

 Niiai wrote:
OK. But is the consus that things dies easaly in 9th edition, or that those are really udercosted?

How do they compare to the other usual suspects?

What would they need to cost to be within the regular baseline?

they are so undercosted that obliterators look positively bad in comparison.

 Niiai wrote:
OK. But is the consus that things dies easaly in 9th edition, or that those are really udercosted?

How do they compare to the other usual suspects?

What would they need to cost to be within the regular baseline?

Undercosted. 60 pts would be more suitable.
Other suspects in the realm of Eradicators: Invader ATV and Firestrike Serve-Turrets.

Show me an efficient, clean way to kill gravis armor.

There isnt one. The closest is Rokkitz, as its a 10pt S8 Ap2 3D gun, but on a super squishy model and also inaccurate.

Every army is trying to find ways to deal with gravis because its so difficult to kill them without spending far more points than the gravis armor was worth in the first place getting rid of them. Which is fine if theyre not a hyper-lethal unit in the first place, which eradicators are.

Yes, eradicators die easily. But keep track of WHAT kills them and you will notice it takes an unusually expensive amount of dakka to do it. Its an aspect of 40k that most people dont really pay attention to.

Meanwhile Eradicators shoot literally once at just about any non-chaff targets and boom they made their points back, or damn close to it. Ordinarily this conversation would also apply to necron Skorp Destroyers as theyre the same level of durability...but theyre also dedicated melee so they have a pretty high chance to do nothing BUT draw fire.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Show me an efficient, clean way to kill gravis armor.

There isnt one. The closest is Rokkitz, as its a 10pt S8 Ap2 3D gun, but on a super squishy model and also inaccurate.

From shooting, certainly not. Twisted Helix GSC Acolyte Rock Cutters can do it pretty well, they waste less attacks on killing each model because the cutter ability occurs after each unsaved wound, meaning you do D3 damage, then roll a D6 if they haven't already been killed and if you roll higher than their remaining wounds they are removed. The downside is -1 to hit but GSC have a handy 2-in-1 tool for raising CC efficiency in the Primus, so they'll be back up to 3+ to hit, wounding on 2+ and rerolling wounds, -4 ap so no save allowed. There's also the option of Might From Beyond for 12 attacks instead of 8 in a squad, that will likely kill 6 Eradicators in one combat, for maybe 2/3rd the cost of the squad, including the characters they need to buff them? Don't have my book to confirm those points but it seems right.

A min squad of three Shining spears with expert crafters and hunters of ancient relics, assuming they can shoot before charging in, comfortably kill a min squad of Eradicators for 15 points less.

So is it a case of rock beeing everywhere, paper is good and nobody are brining scissors?

Right, everything that can take them down better do it first, because they can take down anything in return fire. The new Heavy Meltas allow them to do 4-10 damage, per shot, in under 12 inches. They shoot better than Custodes Terminators Punch with their Power fists. They are literally the most game breaking unit since Castellans and that isn't hyperbole. I also hope they get nerfed JUST as hard, but they won't until GW comes out with another faction that they want to see sell well. Apparently the Sporegar faction that is slated for early 2020 is going to be entirely new, so expect them to have day 1 broken stuff to entire buyers.

The closest ork equivelant to gravis is probably killa kanz, They get +2 wounds,and a quasi melee buff of +1 attack in groups of 3 or more, a couple kustom jobs (+3 move, -1 to hit, +1 BS) and the ability to shoot non blast in combat. They also get LD6, BS4+ WS5+, don't get core, a malus for objective camping and cover, (vehicle keyword), are explicitly forbidden from taking any non core rule (apply to everyone) strategems and do not benefit from faction rules unless your running grot mobs ) 6++ and reroll 1s to hit, or tin'eads (+1 to hit in melee). If equipped with rokkits they are 55 pts and each do a single str8 ap-2 d3. if you want to make them 50 each they are forced to use big shootas 3 str5 ap-0 shots. For more expensive options that bring them to 60 pts you get skorchas (autohit d6 str5 ap-1 flamer with 8" range, or for 55 pts you can use grotzookas (D6 Blast str6 ap-0). Despite all of this they are around 10-20 pts more expensive per model then eradicators or aggressors, which both heavily outshoot them and, in the case of aggressors, can probably match them in melee no problem, let alone with all of the strategems and buffs you can dump into them.

I don't know wraithguard/wraithblades off the top of my head but a comparison there would be pretty handy as well.

Lets not do this thread again..

There is also this thread about Eradicators:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791574.page

I actually don't think the Eradicators would have a very high impact in the game. Honestly, with the already existing AT tools every facrions got, like Fire Prisms and Dark Reapers, Harlequin Skyweaver Jetbikes, Repulsor Executioner, Slannesh Obliterators, Kronos Hiveguards, etc., bringing large models without a decent invulnerable save has already been pretty much a waste of points for quite a long time now. What large vehicles / monsters you are seeing running around the table are mostly Plagueburst Crawlers, Lord Discordant, IK/CK, Maggy /Morty and the "oh so OP" Iron hand Levithan Dreadought. All those who already have 5++ at the very least, most of them are even running a base 4++ and /or having FnP and can be buffed by -1to hit. These are already not so vunerable to the attacks of "traditional AT", which category includes the Eradicators.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I actually don't think the Eradicators would have a very high impact in the game. Honestly, with the already existing AT tools every facrions got, like Fire Prisms and Dark Reapers, Harlequin Skyweaver Jetbikes, Repulsor Executioner, Slannesh Obliterators, Kronos Hiveguards, etc., bringing large models without a decent invulnerable save has already been pretty much a waste of points for quite a long time now. What large vehicles / monsters you are seeing running around the table are mostly Plagueburst Crawlers, Lord Discordant, IK/CK, Maggy /Morty and the "oh so OP" Iron hand Levithan Dreadought. All those who already have 5++ at the very least, most of them are even running a base 4++ and /or having FnP and can be buffed by -1to hit. These are already not so vunerable to the attacks of "traditional AT", which category includes the Eradicators.

You still see those kind of vehicles/monsters in a lot of armies because some armies don't have any choice. The idea that the only vehicles you see always have an invulnerable save is pretty much a myth. Your list of things that push non-invulnerable save vehicles out of the meta includes a number of targets that Eradicators are brilliant against, for example. Even if we accept your premise, Eradicators are still so undercosted that they've got a very high chance of finding a good target in any army and they'll make their points back in one shooting phase a very high percentage of the time. That's a level of efficiency other armies just can't compete with. In addition, they're cheap enough that there's not really any drawback to including at least one unit in any SM army.

I have a felling they will go up in points in the near future. GW likes pushing New model sales for a little before they increase points or nerf. I Like the prospect of plasma inceptors or Relic Levi with storm cannons. The plasma inceptors are now carrying blast weapons so will automatically get 3 shots each gun when firing at a 6man squad of eradicators. They deepstrike for free so can be a counter shooting unit that you bring down after the eradicators appear. Or using Auspex scan with Relic Levi boosted by MOH spell. He will be T9 4++ with -1 dmg. His flamers are 12” now so between that and the cannons should have no problem clearing them. For not two much more then 6man squad. And should take a lot of dedicated to take down. I wish the space wolf strat chooser of the slain was still a thing. Basically Auspex scan anywhere on board in range of firing unit.

It's not just vehicles that are vulnerable to Eradicators. The answer to the question above of what takes down gravis armor cheaply and readily is...Eradicators.

Yes, a melta rifle is overkill against gravis. But I gotta say with all the space marine armies I see out there that depend so heavily on aggressors, and with those armies soon expecting to depend on heavy intercessors, that having a cheap unit that can come on from reserve and basically be guaranteed to wipe or cripple a chunky unit of aggressors or heavy intercessors is something that's a no-brainer to put in your army.

And with nearly every space marine army taking at least one unit (everybody bought Indomitus, right?), until the inevitable nerf, we might see people shelving their aggressors and dusting off the terminators.

This is the problem with updating a game based off everyone being a single wound model unless they are a character. Literally half the factions in the game are not equipped to deal with swaths of t5 w3 models easily. 8th was about reacting to "Knights=like" How fast can you drop a T8 20+w model? That's what 8th was geared around. Now 9th came along and basically made vehicles useless, and core shattered the concept of Buff bots, so there is no way to deal mass D2 wounds out to SMs. Unless you get extremely lucky, d1 mass fires or heavy melee units is the only way. Flamers are useless. Plasma is pointless for the cost. Autocannons take out maybe 1 Gravis per turn. You need extremely luck d3 or better yet d6 shooting or melee to have a change against gravis. And that just does not exist. Also these guys practically invalidate Smite heavy armies and Assassins.

So how does the eradicator compare to the attack bike?

For 15 points more you can always shoot twice. You have 1 more wound. And you have 9(!) more in movement at a whopping 14.

Are they not better or at least comparative?

 Niiai wrote:
So how does the eradicator compare to the attack bike?

For 15 points more you can always shoot twice. You have 1 more wound. And you have 9(!) more in movement at a whopping 14.

Are they not better or at least comparative?

Probably comparative. Situationally potentially better due to the higher movement.

Realistically in a roster of ludicrously undercosted 2 shot MM being relatively common, Eradicators are not completely unreasonable.
Or rather - there are lots of Marine units with MMs that stand up reasonably well and will be slotted in to serve the same purpose if Eradicators alone get nerfed.

And it might be that the rest of the game see's their "anti-tank" get a similar boost - in which case eradicators are just a thing, and essentially die like 1 wound scouts, and every vehicle/monster over about 100 points is declared obsolete.

But my *feeling* is that this imbalance is both obvious and unpleasant - and GW's desire to still sell said vehicles/monsters will eventually see a general nerf - to both eradicators and MMs in general. Probably a significant points hike. Probably around April next year - assuming the global situation allows enough games to be played.

I would think that the infantry keyword would make a difference for some defensive auras and strategems, depending on chapter. Raven Guard, for example.

Dark Angels might prefer the bikes for the Deathwing jink save (they get that again, right?).

It’s a good argument, though.

I honestly think the Eradicator hype is overblown. They're strong, but that's O.K. There's nothing wrong with a faction having strong tools in its arsenal. They ARE intruding on the design space of Custodes so I dunno what GW is going to do there, but they're manageable for most factions.

A fun thought is that, if Eradicator and anti-elite-infantry spam gets too prevalent, the meta might very well swing back to hordes. The melta rifles are fairly wasted on cheap 1W models.

Well I am assembling my GSC list. It does have 6 ridgerunners and 3 charracters, 10 heavy weapon teams. Besides that it has 123 singel wound models. It would not be scared of eradicators weapons. But T5, 3 wound 3+ save is very cheap for 40 points.

I like that the attack bike is fairly comparable to eradicators. Itvis evidense against a justefied hyperbole. If they are premium anti tank a very binary list would be 3 maxed units or eradicators, 3 maxed units og melta attack bikes. And then you spend the rest of the points on anti infantery.

Besides the attack bike, are there any other comparable units? Regular bike squad with 2 meltas, 1 combi melta (or powerfist?) and an attack bike with multimelta? How about landspeeders with melta? The gocart?

Do necrons have anything similar to eradicators?

Good luck with Horde armies in the new edition. Honestly. Even by tournament clock rules, you will likely run out of time by turn 3. Even mid tier elite armies like Space Marines run out of time easily. GW is pushing hard against hordes for some reason that I won't speculate on, but they don't like Orks, Daemons, Cultists, or Conscripts. All got nerfed in one way or another. Likely because GW was shocked at how boring it was watching 5 hour games of one guy moving 40model squads only to lose half to Morale. For instance if you have 40 conscripts with a LD of 5, lets say they take a round of shooting from a squad of intercessors with assault bolters. 15 shots, 7 hits, like 3 wounds, Then you roll a d6. average is 3, so that makes 6, you only loose 1 to morale. That's not bad, whereas before you could lose a lot more. Can't wait to see what IG and Chaos shake out as.

 Niiai wrote:
Well I am assembling my GSC list. It does have 6 ridgerunners and 3 charracters, 10 heavy weapon teams. Besides that it has 123 singel wound models. It would not be scared of eradicators weapons. But T5, 3 wound 3+ save is very cheap for 40 points.

I like that the attack bike is fairly comparable to eradicators. Itvis evidense against a justefied hyperbole. If they are premium anti tank a very binary list would be 3 maxed units or eradicators, 3 maxed units og melta attack bikes. And then you spend the rest of the points on anti infantery.

Besides the attack bike, are there any other comparable units? Regular bike squad with 2 meltas, 1 combi melta (or powerfist?) and an attack bike with multimelta? How about landspeeders with melta? The gocart?

Do necrons have anything similar to eradicators?

You seem to be unable to grasp that a single squad of Eradicators are putting out 4 Multimelta shots and 4 Heavy Melta Rifle Shots. To equal this you would need four attack bikes, two of them within melta range. The former costs 140 points. The latter weighs in at 220 points, requires two separate FoC slots, and is acutely susceptible to the kind of damage 2 weaponry thats being heavily deployed in the new 2W marine environment. The math gets even worse if you run them for Speeders, who also give up gobs of VPs thanks to being easy to pop vehicles.

Eradicators are brokenly undercosted for what they do, to the point that even newly viable units like ABs and Speeders (the former of which I am *very* keen on now for 9th) are squeezed out of consideration.

You're never going to see eighteen Eradicators outsided of meme lists because there is absolutely no reason to run that many. The points are far better spent on anti-horde options, which Marines have absolutely acres of very good options for.

While 140 point of shots i very cheap you are assuming that they are within range, and that they can shoot twice.

Wheras if you take 3 attak bikes with meltas the ods increase dranatically that they are within range, and herpaps even half range.

When you arr building lists would you rather spend 280 on 2 units of eradicators that will not be online before turn 2 earliest, or 340 points on 2 units of attack bikes that have a good chance of being a threath turn one?

Depending on what your opponent brings 60 ooints for the bikes might just be better. How soon do do you need the shots? They are also more though with more wounds. While D2 does not care so much, D3 cares quite a lot.

 Niiai wrote:
While 140 point of shots i very cheap you are assuming that they are within range, and that they can shoot twice.

They allways will, sorry to say this. Their innate limitation to the double shooting is NO limitation at all especially on a supposed specialist unit.

Wheras if you take 3 attak bikes with meltas the ods increase dranatically that they are within range, and herpaps even half range.

1 CP allow you to strategic reserve 2 squads of eradicators which are still cheaper then the attack bikes... So no, that is not a valid concern.

When you arr building lists would you rather spend 280 on 2 units of eradicators that will not be online before turn 2 earliest, or 340 points on 2 units of attack bikes that have a good chance of being a threath turn one?

the 280 pts have the distinct advantage that they are also gravis, you can also decide on the fly if you field them in reserve or field them directly, the 24 inch min range alone with the 12 " deployment and movement (potentially advance aswell since assault ) is more then enough threat range on the smaller tables

Depending on what your opponent brings 60 ooints for the bikes might just be better. How soon do do you need the shots? They are also more though with more wounds. While D2 does not care so much, D3 cares quite a lot.

D2 is infinetly more available then D3, that alone makes durability actually quite a bit more in favour of the gravis lads.

You are not contradicting a lot of what I am saying.

Claiming that they will always be within range and can always shoot twice is just a claim it is not demonstrated.

Yes you can reserve 2 squads, and they come in on turn 2 while bikes are available turn 1.

Yes they have the distinct advantage that they are gravis. Are there any stratagems I am misisng? If you are running them you have worse BS and can not shoot twice. Attack bikes have the distinct advantage that they are attack bikes.

When you say D2 is more avilable then D3 what are you refering to? Number of weapons entries in codexes or number of weapons fielded in the battlefield? Because only the later is relevant. 8th edition had a lot of smash captains, they are D3. Worse vs attack bikes, better vs eradicator. If people grab a lot of eradicators then having D3 ranged damage weapons will help a lot. Helblasters can do this. Redemptor dreadnoughts can do this. Also, eradicators will probably be matching up against eradicators quite often. Bikes match up against eradicators better because the ekstra wound might help you out, and the ekstra range means you can shoot first.

While this is not to say eradicators are not good. They are quite good. They certanly winn out vs devestators. It might just seems like attack bikes in many situations are better.

there are like 3 threads out there about eradicators already, do we really need to flood another subforum with it?