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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I've just been pondering, wargames in general have a very cut & dry "kill the enemy, take objectives while you're at it" approach. They seldom give more in-depth plots to the games.

I was just thinking about if one side was tasked with the old "bring them to me, alive!" and the other was just trying to escape, how would this translate to a wargame? Obviously the attacker would need the numbers and the defender the advantage of knowing they won't kill you but you can kill them.

There's also scope for capturing enemy generals to gain knowledge on enemy deployments, that sort of thing.

I suspect that the more simulation-like wargames, like historical ones, would have the option to capture prisoners instead of just mowing them all down like in 40k and such.

It would also give some really good interaction with opposed missions, like (for example) the attacker has to get in and steal the launch codes, and the defender has a mission to capture them, or to keep them out, or to let them escape with false launch codes, but then they might actually have been planting a bomb.

It may even make for rock-paper-scissors matchups of missions, where both sides have 3 missions to choose from which are easily kept secret, and then at the end you reveal if you succeeded at them. If one player succeeds and the other fails, then they win. If both payers succeed, then the narrative tells you rock beats scissors EG you got the launch codes, but they were fake, or you got pictures of their leader, but they planted a bomb which destroyed them. That sort of thing.

So, has anyone got experience with games which feature non-all-out war, with surrendering and prisoners and missions that aren't about killing people or planting flags?

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I think Star Wars Legion has some stuff along these lines. In older editions 40k had some narrative missions that were also "capture the VIP and get them off the table edge before the opposing side can kill them" type missions.

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MN (Currently in WY)

Check out Rogue Stars and the mission generator.

There are a variety of missions where you go from Point A to Point B, rescues hostages, escape the board, retrieve something, etc.

The mission generator (and complication generator) is the best thing about the game and worth the price.

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It would be thematically appropriate if the Dark Eldar had some form of capture mechanic.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Pulp Alley does this, framing the game as a pulp adventure rather than a military encounter.
   
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 some bloke wrote:
I've just been pondering, wargames in general have a very cut & dry "kill the enemy, take objectives while you're at it" approach. They seldom give more in-depth plots to the games.

I was just thinking about if one side was tasked with the old "bring them to me, alive!" and the other was just trying to escape, how would this translate to a wargame? Obviously the attacker would need the numbers and the defender the advantage of knowing they won't kill you but you can kill them.
[…]


Warhammer 40.000 Apocalypse has something like that: a player who use the Deathwing against the Chaos Marines, can choose one of the opponent's miniatures, declare it is a Fallen and then one of his objective during the game is capture that Fallen with his Deathwing marines; or something like that. But there could be a lot of other way to do that: for example a scout squad could have the mission to escape from the enemy forces, in order to report what it has found out during its exploration. Another way could be create a rescue squad with the task to save a General captured by the enemy; like it happened in the movie Bat 21.

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 some bloke wrote:
So, has anyone got experience with games which feature non-all-out war, with surrendering and prisoners and missions that aren't about killing people or planting flags?


I'm planning on starting a small campaign based on the Outremer ruleset by Osprey (Crusades era skirmish). The game has very heavy focus on capturing, ransoming or selling prisoners - you can't even kill fallen enemies without taking specific action which takes entire turn IIRC (unless you have a bloodthirsty trait - these characters instantly kill anybody they knock out), but they can be taken away from the field of battle and later ransomed or sold into slavery. There is even a mission type where one player tries to save his captured warriors.

Mordheim (especially if we include official and unofficial addons) also had different outcomes for knocked out or lost warriors, including being captured and then sold to the arena to fight against Chaos Wariors. In our first campaign my ork warboss was captured in his third fight so I had to put almost entirety of my funds for him. Idiot died in the next battle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/08 09:08:55


 
   
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Most wargames do "capture" mechanics just with "kill the enemy up close" (ex. WHFB capturing banners, old 40k Dark Angels and the Blades of Reason). Infinity has rules for civilians you're not allowed to hurt (to the point that your smart munitions won't detonate if there's a civilian nearby), it's a complicated game but you might be able to build some kind of Assassin's Creed stealthy fighters in a crowd thing out of similar ideas.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/09 01:27:59


 
   
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MN (Currently in WY)

Another good source of alternate missions and complications is the Frostgrave: Ulterior Motives cards. Many of them are scenario complications and alternate "win" sceanrios besides grabbing treasure or killing all your foes.

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/11/review-ulterior-motives-frostgrave.html

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Giving players options to address the opposing material in more ways than removing it from the board is probably more fun than just chipping away at each other.
   
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 LordofHats wrote:
It would be thematically appropriate if the Dark Eldar had some form of capture mechanic.


Wouldn't it amount to the same end result? You're still just removing the enemy's models from the table.

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 trexmeyer wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
It would be thematically appropriate if the Dark Eldar had some form of capture mechanic.


Wouldn't it amount to the same end result? You're still just removing the enemy's models from the table.


Could make it one of those command cards that rewards a CP. Maybe make it a mechanic that allows you to remove a character from play but lets the other player have a chance at getting them back? IDK. I'm just saying it would be thematic XD

   
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 LordofHats wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
It would be thematically appropriate if the Dark Eldar had some form of capture mechanic.


Wouldn't it amount to the same end result? You're still just removing the enemy's models from the table.


Could make it one of those command cards that rewards a CP. Maybe make it a mechanic that allows you to remove a character from play but lets the other player have a chance at getting them back? IDK. I'm just saying it would be thematic XD


That's actually an amazing idea for Dark Eldar. They could attempt to capture slaves for bonus CP, but there would have to be some kind of greater risk involved in order to make it something of trade off.

Like slaves take up a half slot on vehicles, they could reduce foot movement speed, jump troops can't capture, enemy can free them.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Something like "If a Dark Eldar infantry unit is within 1" of an enemy unit with less total Wounds characteristic than them, they may perform a "Take Slaves" action. Remove the enemy unit from the battlefield. The dark eldar unit may act normally, but if it Shoots, Charges, advances, attempts to manifest psychic powers or embarks on a vehicle (yaddah yaddah it can only do basic moves), before it does so the captured unit is placed back on the battlefield anywhere wholly within 6" of the unit.
If the unit is reduced to a lower wounds characteristic than the captured unit, the captured unit is placed as above.
If the unit moves off of the controlling players table edge, score 2VP for each model captured. Instead score 6VP if the captured unit is a Character, and 10VP if the captured unit is the enemy Warlord.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/12 11:16:42


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I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
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Andy Chambers' Starship Troopers (Mongoose Games) had this neat thing where instead of soaking the hit with an armour save, a model could 'flinch' 2" away from the attacker to prevent being removed by an attack.
   
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MN (Currently in WY)

Black Ops does something similar.

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Having stuff move around on a board, especially pushing them back, seems so much better than taking stuff off the board.
   
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Seems like it would be better in a campaign style wargame. For example in 40k the "capture" is just kill the enemy up close, but it's functionally no different because that's the end of the game. If you could do the more difficult task of capturing your target alive, you could be rewarded with intel/ransom or something.

Could be that you may have special gear that is less effective but disables the target. Or maybe when the target "dies" you roll off to see if they actually die or are just incapacitated.

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It used to be in 7th edition 40k and earlier that units could involuntarily fall back or be pinned down. I think it makes for a more interesting game if there are non-lethal ways to temporarily neutralize your opponent's stuff. For one thing, I think the more models on the board the better and taking 1/2 off just at the first turn seems like a waste of models (unless, you know, your hobby is the models and the game is a fun distraction with your budddies, etc). Simply knowing that some units need to survive until the next battle might incline players to try and keep them alive.

I rather like how, in even earlier editions, units had psychological states that made them less like pieces in Chess and more like little robots (especially the robots!) with minds of their own that you herded.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Further to this one, I am including a suppression mechanic in my game which I think helps reduce the lethality of it all. Not so much the non-lethal missions I was discussing originally, but a mechanic to let you keep units on the battlefield. I will also be working it in with Morale in some way, as I do feel morale is a necessary mechanic in wargames!

How it works is that the damage is dealt during a turn but resolved at the start of a units activation. The unit can spend its actions to reduce this damage - making them do less in the turn, but take less damage.

In 40k, it would be the equivalent of saying "This unit is about to take 8 wounds. I will sacrifice my movement, psychic and fight phases to remove 3 of those wounds", and then taking 5 wounds and not being able to move, psych or fight next turn.

I'll be playtesting it one day over winter once I've made enough of the game to work around it. I'm wondering if, for morale, I will have a maximum damage where if you have more damage than a limit, you must use suppression to drop it, and cannot take actions until it drops below a level.

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Dawn Patrol (WW1 biplanes) is about engaging the enemy and driving them off to win missions but wasn’t focused solely on the kill. In keeping with the “chivalric knights of the air” theme the goal was to damage the enemy aircraft to the point they’d retreat and not simply to gun them down mercilessly. While not a formal mechanic it establishes a strong gentlemen’s code with the players and respect for their pilots.

Players wanted to keep their pilots alive so they could rank up and would play those pilots in campaigns stretching for years. Losing a pilot you had built up to an ace level was painful and something you wanted to avoid at all costs, but you still wanted to win missions and fight with those pilots at every opportunity. Knowing when to fold and withdrawal for survival is a crucial part of the game.

There was a subset of rules for damaged planes withdrawing and trying to land which often resulted in fatal crashes or severely wounded pilots who would miss sessions while recovering from battles. It really enhanced the theme of the game and helped it feel like it was part of a unique and noble bygone era of warfare.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/01 23:33:00


   
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Blood Red Skies also seems to be almost completely non-lethal

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 LordofHats wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
It would be thematically appropriate if the Dark Eldar had some form of capture mechanic.


Wouldn't it amount to the same end result? You're still just removing the enemy's models from the table.


Could make it one of those command cards that rewards a CP. Maybe make it a mechanic that allows you to remove a character from play but lets the other player have a chance at getting them back? IDK. I'm just saying it would be thematic XD


No, I totally agree - I like the idea of getting bonus points for capturing units alive as a DE. An additional mechanic could be that the units original side can then attempt to kill the captured unit to spare them from literally a fate worse than death. I don't know how to make it work mechanically but it's a very cool idea narratively.

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Old school Necromunda (also Mordheim) is kind of like this - Gangers can be captured, ransomed and rescued. The game is more about scoring points than fighting to the death, or at least it is if the Gang Leader doesn't want to lose the campaign.

Dungeons & Dragons is a wargame, and it's had the option to incapacitate for a very long time, which can be to capture or coup-de-grace instakill.

And of course, Warhammer Fantasy and Epic used to be about morale, where entire armies could run from the field. This is pretty historically accurate, as the concept of "fight to the death, take no prisoners" is more grimdark than realistic.

The trick is that you need to design things this way, in terms of what sort of game you're playing.


   
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Fixture of Dakka






Necromunda also had the rules for power mauls - while the description said you could vary the power field strength, the stats assumed you had it turned down to "non-lethal"; a wounding hit always took the target out of action, but never resulted in a long-term injury roll.

Mongoose Publishing's Judge Dredd game also had rules for arresting perps and handcuffing them to the furniture rather than just killing them. In fact, Judges were never allowed to fire first - they had to wait until fire upon, and also had rules allowing them to intimidate opponents into surrendering.

Epic Armageddon's suppression mechanic is excellent, but I'm not sure I'd count it in this discussion - it's still the result of potentially lethal firepower, and is the result of the targets keeping their heads down rather than the attackers not trying to kill them.
   
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It is worth noting that a lot of games have small rule flavor like this. It's one of those things that gets lost in the modern definition of casualty. In war, and injury often results in the same loss of a trooper as death, but when you translate that to a wargame, you're taking a model off the table either way.

An odd example of this is Take Down in Warmachine, which is a rule that stops models from making saving throws. In practice, it feels like it makes a model "super dead" and feels like the model is extra lethal. Originally though, the rule was given to units with less lethal tactics to represent stuff like being able to hogtie an enemy or something similar to remove them from battle without killing them. It doesn't at all feel that way in practice though.

Marvel Crisis Protocol does a pretty good job of it. There are causalities in the game but the nature of the system keeps them from happening until the mid to late game. This results in victory really focusing on pushes, throws and other abilities to move opponents and claim objectives to stay in the game.
   
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The Entire Metal Gear Series has non-lethal routes, and most of the Solid series actually reward you for going as they call it, "Big boss mode" which is never being seen, and never taking a life. Hell, most of the bosses can be non-lethaly dispatched as part of the mechanics. I'd argue that the Solid series are all major "war" games.
   
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I can't think of any particular systems in which capture is an integral part of the base game rules. Plenty of scenarios on which it is an objective though. Tomorrow's War / Ambush Alley games feature it IIRC.

It can also be implemented as a universal bonus VP mechanic (i.e. not a win condition), typically as follows:

-Broken units must retreat away from their attacker. If this is not possible, because their path of retreat is blocked they are captured. Bonus Victory Points awarded
-Weapons with Stun or similar keyword that doesn't remove/kill models, but renders them unable to act until removed. If number of stun counters are greater to or equal than number of models in squad, squad is subdued. Subdued units are captured if an enemy charges them / moves within X inches, and there are no friendly models within X inches. Bonus VP's awarded

Hope that's useful. Sub'd as its a topic of interest to me too.

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