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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Hello!

I know the DA supplement is on its way but do you think that the existing primaris range will have options to make some of the models deathwing or do you think there will be specific deathwing primaris units and models? Or an upgrade spruce?

   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Bladeguard Veterans are Deathwing arent they?

I dont think they'll add any other existing Primaris to Deatwing, I feel it would undermine the flavour of the wing. But I could see them releasing kits in the future similar to BGV, or closer terminator equivalent Primaris (Gravis with a more veteran feel to them for example).
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




I think it is clear that GW does not want to release chapter specific kits at the moment. The only exceptions are upgrade sprues and single characters.

I can see that in the future there would be a time when we run out of old Marine units to facelift and look at stuff like Deathwing or Death Company again, though.

I think the codex will give you options to add the Deathwing, Ravenwing and Inner Circle keywords to existing Primaris models.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





mrFickle wrote:
Hello!

I know the DA supplement is on its way but do you think that the existing primaris range will have options to make some of the models deathwing or do you think there will be specific deathwing primaris units and models? Or an upgrade spruce?



No, I think they're still not sure what they want to do with the -Wings. I was shocked Outriders and the new Speeders were Ravenwing. I'm waiting on the Codex, but I'm planning on running Heavy Intercessors as "Deathwing" troops. If they can be given the Deathwing/Inner Circle keywords through a strat or something great, if not they'll just use their normal rules, be painted Bone White, and be Deathwing In Name Only.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

 Stux wrote:
Bladeguard Veterans are Deathwing arent they?

They are indeed. Frankly, I hope that we don't see any more Deathwing Primaris (outside of characters like the Company Masters), but I fear that we will - because if you ask me, having Bladeguard be Deathwing is already undermining the Deathwing flavour.

Breton wrote:
I was shocked Outriders and the new Speeders were Ravenwing.

This isn't so much of a problem, because the Ravenwing isn't privy to any of the secrets that the Deathwing are. So having Primaris Ravenwing is no worse than the Chapter having any Primaris in the first place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/05 11:21:22


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Primaris not getting Dark Angels secrets was never going to last. I dont have a problem with that at all. For a start, Librarians are a thing. Also, DA can make their own Primaris, they arent all given directly from Cawl. So theres no real reason to trust them any less than any other recruit. Once they've been with the chapter 100 years and proven themselves, I have no problem whatsoever with Primaris being inducted to the inner circle.

When I talk about undermining Deathwing flavour, I mean as an elite force that parrerl Teutonic Knights. Its aethetic and allegorical issues. So BGV, totally fine, they look the part with the robes and are clearly veterans. If they release new Primaris models that fit this flavour, again I wouldnt have a problem with them being Deathwing.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Blade guard might have the deathwing key word but deathwing knights and deathwing terminators are a specific unit that is not available to other chapters.

How does blade guard having the deathwing keyword make them unique compare to other bladeguard.

Do they get a watcher in the dark? For example
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

For me it isn't so much the fact that they're Primaris, rather than Firstborn. It's that one of the things that marks Dark Angels out as special is their ability to field the entire 1st Company in Terminator armour... because they're pretty much the only Chapter with that many suits. It doesn't sit right to me that they'd leave such vaunted and valued relics unused because the new boys can't use them.
...I'd be happier with it lore-wise if there were some sort of Primaris Terminator equivalent... but given we already have Gravis, I absolutely don't want this to happen rules-wise.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Super Ready wrote:

This isn't so much of a problem, because the Ravenwing isn't privy to any of the secrets that the Deathwing are. So having Primaris Ravenwing is no worse than the Chapter having any Primaris in the first place.


Yes they are. They’re not privy to ALL the secrets, but they are to some. Green wing calls the Ravenwing who search and then call the Deathwing. There’s a reason Dark Talons have a stasis bomb, and that reason isn’t Ork Warbosses.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Super Ready wrote:
For me it isn't so much the fact that they're Primaris, rather than Firstborn. It's that one of the things that marks Dark Angels out as special is their ability to field the entire 1st Company in Terminator armour... because they're pretty much the only Chapter with that many suits. It doesn't sit right to me that they'd leave such vaunted and valued relics unused because the new boys can't use them.
...I'd be happier with it lore-wise if there were some sort of Primaris Terminator equivalent... but given we already have Gravis, I absolutely don't want this to happen rules-wise.


This is always one of the gaps that has bothered me. But the gap is filled by the fact that Cawl can produce as much war gear as needed now so the vault of old suits of terminator is now devalued.

I hope that the new supplement explains how primaris have been added into the deathwing.

It’s the same thing with raven wing though, the first born vehicles had additional options around plasma weapons, for example, that if we just use the standard primaris kits will we.

So I suppose if we move towards a DA chapter with a growing number of primaris soldiers are we going to see a watering down of the DW and RW
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





I figure all the terminator armor would have been destroyed in 3rd ed anyway, so Gravis as the new Terminator works for me (thus Heavy Intercessors in my Deathwing).

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Breton wrote:
I figure all the terminator armor would have been destroyed in 3rd ed anyway, so Gravis as the new Terminator works for me (thus Heavy Intercessors in my Deathwing).


Destroyed why?
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Primaris are not all brand new marines. In the 100+ years since they were introduces many old marines have upgraded themselves into primaris.

The deathwing could very well be primaris and still have their secrets.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





mrFickle wrote:
Breton wrote:
I figure all the terminator armor would have been destroyed in 3rd ed anyway, so Gravis as the new Terminator works for me (thus Heavy Intercessors in my Deathwing).


Destroyed why?


Because in 3rd Ed Terminators were really really really bad.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Breton wrote:
 Super Ready wrote:

This isn't so much of a problem, because the Ravenwing isn't privy to any of the secrets that the Deathwing are. So having Primaris Ravenwing is no worse than the Chapter having any Primaris in the first place.

Yes they are. They’re not privy to ALL the secrets, but they are to some. Green wing calls the Ravenwing who search and then call the Deathwing. There’s a reason Dark Talons have a stasis bomb, and that reason isn’t Ork Warbosses.

I'm aware of the Black Knights in particular knowing about the Fallen, but only them, so I always saw that as being part of the Deathwing still but seconded from it - kind of how Company Masters are. Unless something changed in the 8th ed book, and the rest of the Ravenwing now know about the Fallen too...?

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Super Ready wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Super Ready wrote:

This isn't so much of a problem, because the Ravenwing isn't privy to any of the secrets that the Deathwing are. So having Primaris Ravenwing is no worse than the Chapter having any Primaris in the first place.

Yes they are. They’re not privy to ALL the secrets, but they are to some. Green wing calls the Ravenwing who search and then call the Deathwing. There’s a reason Dark Talons have a stasis bomb, and that reason isn’t Ork Warbosses.

I'm aware of the Black Knights in particular knowing about the Fallen, but only them, so I always saw that as being part of the Deathwing still but seconded from it - kind of how Company Masters are. Unless something changed in the 8th ed book, and the rest of the Ravenwing now know about the Fallen too...?
. Each advancement results in learning more secrets.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman





Wakefield

 Super Ready wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Super Ready wrote:

This isn't so much of a problem, because the Ravenwing isn't privy to any of the secrets that the Deathwing are. So having Primaris Ravenwing is no worse than the Chapter having any Primaris in the first place.

Yes they are. They’re not privy to ALL the secrets, but they are to some. Green wing calls the Ravenwing who search and then call the Deathwing. There’s a reason Dark Talons have a stasis bomb, and that reason isn’t Ork Warbosses.

I'm aware of the Black Knights in particular knowing about the Fallen, but only them, so I always saw that as being part of the Deathwing still but seconded from it - kind of how Company Masters are. Unless something changed in the 8th ed book, and the rest of the Ravenwing now know about the Fallen too...?


I started Dark Angels in 3rd, before Black Knights were a thing, and I am pretty sure it's always been a case that the Ravenwing as a whole know of the fallen, as their job is to locate and chase them down for the Death Wing. They just don't know quite as much as the Deathwing (who are only second to the inner circle in their knowledge).

Imperial Guard
Dark Angels
Custodes
Death Watch
Tyranids
 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission





Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

Theres a great story in a recent-ish white dwarf about the first primaris to be allowed into the Inner Circle. More than anything else it was a description of how they induct any member into the inner circle but the marine in question had to be badass to 11 in order to qualify.

17,000 points (Valhallan, Cadian, and Vostroyan)
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"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"

-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 generalchaos34 wrote:
Theres a great story in a recent-ish white dwarf about the first primaris to be allowed into the Inner Circle. More than anything else it was a description of how they induct any member into the inner circle but the marine in question had to be badass to 11 in order to qualify.


And then did this primaris get a suite of terminator armour or stay as an officer in the green wing
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




mrFickle wrote:
Blade guard might have the deathwing key word but deathwing knights and deathwing terminators are a specific unit that is not available to other chapters.

How does blade guard having the deathwing keyword make them unique compare to other bladeguard.

Do they get a watcher in the dark? For example


having a rule that makes them woundable only on +4, unlike regular other marines blade guards?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CatachanDevil wrote:

I started Dark Angels in 3rd, before Black Knights were a thing, and I am pretty sure it's always been a case that the Ravenwing as a whole know of the fallen, as their job is to locate and chase them down for the Death Wing. They just don't know quite as much as the Deathwing (who are only second to the inner circle in their knowledge).


It would be strange for them to not know about it considering that death wing and raven wing are the last 2 of the "wings" of the hexagramaton. They are just as an elite style of formation as all the other. They even are marked by the old heresy era style armour colour.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/05 15:41:45


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

 CatachanDevil wrote:

I started Dark Angels in 3rd, before Black Knights were a thing, and I am pretty sure it's always been a case that the Ravenwing as a whole know of the fallen, as their job is to locate and chase them down for the Death Wing. They just don't know quite as much as the Deathwing (who are only second to the inner circle in their knowledge).

Nah, definitely not the case between the Codexes for 2nd, 5th and 7th (which would be the ones I've read). It's specified that only the Ravenwing's masters (and now, the Black Knights) know anything about the Fallen's origins. The rest of the Ravenwing are aware they're chasing an important target, but not why they're important. Remember that it's trained into all Dark Angels for their nature to be quiet and not overshare information, so it's not like the Ravenwing are going to ask questions.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Standard Ravenwing do not know about the Fallen (or at least who they are), they are tasked with seeking them but do not know why they are wanted. Once they become Black Knights they are given further information but that is all. even talon masters are not yet inducted into the Inner circle.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Super Ready wrote:
 CatachanDevil wrote:

I started Dark Angels in 3rd, before Black Knights were a thing, and I am pretty sure it's always been a case that the Ravenwing as a whole know of the fallen, as their job is to locate and chase them down for the Death Wing. They just don't know quite as much as the Deathwing (who are only second to the inner circle in their knowledge).

Nah, definitely not the case between the Codexes for 2nd, 5th and 7th (which would be the ones I've read). It's specified that only the Ravenwing's masters (and now, the Black Knights) know anything about the Fallen's origins. The rest of the Ravenwing are aware they're chasing an important target, but not why they're important. Remember that it's trained into all Dark Angels for their nature to be quiet and not overshare information, so it's not like the Ravenwing are going to ask questions.


About looking for a guy in Dark Angels heresy era black power armor and iconography.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Breton wrote:
About looking for a guy in Dark Angels heresy era black power armor and iconography.

Something tells me the Ravenwing member that catches Cypher is getting inducted straight into the Deathwing anyway. And there's no way any other Fallen are dumb enough to still be running around in their original Legion armour and markings without it being either horribly mutated beyond recognition, or the Dark Angels having already caught up to them about, oooooh, say 9,000 years ago.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





I think they mentioned in Vigilus somewhere the Ravenwing leader recognized the armor the Fallen Librarian was wearing. I would assume because it was the same.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




Karol wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Blade guard might have the deathwing key word but deathwing knights and deathwing terminators are a specific unit that is not available to other chapters.

How does blade guard having the deathwing keyword make them unique compare to other bladeguard.

Do they get a watcher in the dark? For example


having a rule that makes them woundable only on +4, unlike regular other marines blade guards?


DA Bladeguard don't get that. They have the Deathwing keyword, not Inner Circle , and Inner Circle is what gives the 'only wounded by 4+ rolls'
Just like none of the Ravenwing models in the main SM codex actually get Jink. They just have the Ravenwing keyword, which doesn't actually do much beyond making them valid targets for various stratagems, warlord traits and datasheet abilities.


The DA index is kind of a mess for the cross-compatible stuff. Hopefully the actual book will be less so.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/11/05 20:32:24


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Voss wrote:
Karol wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Blade guard might have the deathwing key word but deathwing knights and deathwing terminators are a specific unit that is not available to other chapters.

How does blade guard having the deathwing keyword make them unique compare to other bladeguard.

Do they get a watcher in the dark? For example


having a rule that makes them woundable only on +4, unlike regular other marines blade guards?


DA Bladeguard don't get that. They have the Deathwing keyword, not Inner Circle , and Inner Circle is what gives the 'only wounded by 4+ rolls'
Just like none of the Ravenwing models in the main SM codex actually get Jink. They just have the Ravenwing keyword, which doesn't actually do much beyond making them valid targets for various stratagems, warlord traits and datasheet abilities.


The DA index is kind of a mess for the cross-compatible stuff. Hopefully the actual book will be less so.


Interesting in the current soon to be old codex DW terminators have the inner circle perk
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







The concept of the deathwing being entirely fielded in terminator armour was a great and flavourful thing for the Dark Angels. For me, having anything else as part of the 1st company kinda kills the tradition for me. Company veterans fit nicely as veteran troops that aren't part of the unique formation. Having company masters that were part of the deathwing but have been rotated out to lead other parts of the chapter is also great. Having the Deathwing just become another random mixture of veterans kitted out in a range of stuff actually makes me feel sad.

Ravenwing was never as focussed on one thing as the Deathwing was. Ravenwing could be in bikes, speeders or other fast vehicles, so expanding to the new Primaris equivalents doesnt bother me so much. Having the Deathwing no longer being entirely terminator based makes me sad.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Lance845 wrote:
Primaris are not all brand new marines. In the 100+ years since they were introduces many old marines have upgraded themselves into primaris.

The deathwing could very well be primaris and still have their secrets.


indeed. it amazes me how many people don't get this, it was spelled out pretty clearly in codex 8.5

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

mrFickle wrote:
 generalchaos34 wrote:
Theres a great story in a recent-ish white dwarf about the first primaris to be allowed into the Inner Circle. More than anything else it was a description of how they induct any member into the inner circle but the marine in question had to be badass to 11 in order to qualify.


And then did this primaris get a suite of terminator armour or stay as an officer in the green wing


The very first Primaris allowed into the Inner Circle was Lazarus, who crossed the Rubicon and was already an Inner Circle member. He currently leads the 5th Company.

The first non-Rubicon Primaris inducted into the Deathwing, however, wears Gravis. His name is Brother Araphon and he was inducted after holding a chokepoint with no ammo and surviving wave after wave of Chaos Cultists and ship crew during a raid on a Chaos Marine vessel. The Deathwing petitioned Azrael directly for permission to induct him. Azrael used his induction as a test to prove to the rest of the Unforgiven that their future lie with the Primaris. The Index Astartes article from a while ago mentions Deathwing Primaris wearing "the heaviest of Gravis" and that was the only mention until Blade Guard showed up and had the keyword itself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/05 21:39:41


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