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Hello!

Since the Legends pdf is out and free, everyone should have access to the rules.

Essentially, the Renegades and Heretics faction can take units from the Astra Militarum book. These units replace Imperium with Chaos and their Regiment is "Renegades and Heretics".

However, they neither lose or replace the Astra Militarum keyword.

In a case where you build a detachment entirely out of these units (say, a Super Heavy Detachment of 3 R&H Baneblades), do you:
Count as an Astra Militarum detachment (since every model has the Astra Militarum keyword)
And if so
Get regimental Doctrines (having to choose since the regiment isn't one specifically listed)
Get Stratagem support
And any other benefits of being *Astra Militarum*?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additional: Furthermore, could you include other Astra Militarum units in those Detachments (made up of units from the Imperial Guard codex rather than R&H) in your army, given that they share the Astra Militarum keyword (and that is a keyword which you are allowed to mix into a detachment)? Or other Astra Militarum Detachments that still have the Imperium keyword?

It is probably a mistake/misprint that they do not lose the Astra Militarum keyword, I would play it as such.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

In a case where you build a detachment entirely out of these units (say, a Super Heavy Detachment of 3 R&H Baneblades), do you:
Count as an Astra Militarum detachment (since every model has the Astra Militarum keyword)
And if so
Get regimental Doctrines (having to choose since the regiment isn't one specifically listed)
Get Stratagem support
And any other benefits of being *Astra Militarum*?

Yes to all.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Additional: Furthermore, could you include other Astra Militarum units in those Detachments (made up of units from the Imperial Guard codex rather than R&H) in your army, given that they share the Astra Militarum keyword (and that is a keyword which you are allowed to mix into a detachment)? Or other Astra Militarum Detachments that still have the Imperium keyword?

Yes.

Yes they are pretty much just a "Custom Regiment" and follow the rules for a Custom Regiment.

wait wait wait, by RAW, one can now chose to have doctrine / stratagem support?
For R&H.....

on one hand, AWESOME, otoh, WTF?

i might need to add this to my list of why the legends ruleset will be banned because some gakhole decided to abuse this ruling issue in combination with the allready abusable as hell basis for the list...

Yes, you have an ASTRA MILITARUM detachment, and you get to use all the rules that ASTRA MILITARUM detachment have access to. I dont see why an army would forget about their training and abilities, just because they have fallen for chaos.

well otoh the Objective secured rule, in this case called "Minions of Chaos" doesn't trigger because GW failed at propperly connecting it to the corresponding keywords.

Minions of Chaos: If your army is Battle-forged and every model in this unit’s Detachment has either the Chaos and Renegades or Unaligned keywords, this unit gains the Objective Secured ability (this ability is described in the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book)

R&H models don't have the keyword Chaos and Renegades but instead: Chaos, Renegades and heretics

so raw you can't hold an objective

You get the one out of the AM book if you take an AM detachment with mixed chaos and imperium units.

That's the next question - if I chose Renegades and Heretics as my regiment, would units not on the list in Legends still get the same Regimental Doctrines? The only keyword difference would be Chaos and Imperium'.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You get the one out of the AM book if you take an AM detachment with mixed chaos and imperium units.

That's the next question - if I chose Renegades and Heretics as my regiment, would units not on the list in Legends still get the same Regimental Doctrines? The only keyword difference would be Chaos and Imperium'.

Huh, you're right the Guard codex would give them objective secured anyway.

And yes, they get the regiment because the codex gives a <REGIMENT> codex the trait, and RENEGADES AND HERETICS replaces <REGIMENT>.

Actually, since RENEGADES AND HERETICS "replaces" <REGIMENT> rather than you selecting it to be <REGIMENT>, that means they don't get a trait as they don't have a <REGIMENT>? See the Tempestus rule, for example, they have to explicitly state that it counts as <REGIMENT>.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You get the one out of the AM book if you take an AM detachment with mixed chaos and imperium units.

That's the next question - if I chose Renegades and Heretics as my regiment, would units not on the list in Legends still get the same Regimental Doctrines? The only keyword difference would be Chaos and Imperium'.

Huh, you're right the Guard codex would give them objective secured anyway.

And yes, they get the regiment because the codex gives a <REGIMENT> codex the trait, and RENEGADES AND HERETICS replaces <REGIMENT>.

Actually, since RENEGADES AND HERETICS "replaces" <REGIMENT> rather than you selecting it to be <REGIMENT>, that means they don't get a trait as they don't have a <REGIMENT>? See the Tempestus rule, for example, they have to explicitly state that it counts as <REGIMENT>.

Well, the word "replaces" is what Codex: AM uses when describing what happens to <Regiment> anyways when you select one (except in cases for units that don't have Regiment and instead have the Cadian or whatever keyword by default).

It is basically like having a Cadian regiment: you replace <Regiment> with Cadian, and it is mandatory. Only this time it is R&H and mandatory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, the Imperial Armor Compendium "replaces" (same verbage) <Regiment> with Death Korps of Krieg, yet they clearly have access to doctrines (given that they have their own doctrine).

Unit1126PLL wrote:Hello!

Since the Legends pdf is out and free, everyone should have access to the rules.

Essentially, the Renegades and Heretics faction can take units from the Astra Militarum book. These units replace Imperium with Chaos and their Regiment is "Renegades and Heretics".

However, they neither lose or replace the Astra Militarum keyword.

In a case where you build a detachment entirely out of these units (say, a Super Heavy Detachment of 3 R&H Baneblades), do you:
Count as an Astra Militarum detachment (since every model has the Astra Militarum keyword)
And if so
Get regimental Doctrines (having to choose since the regiment isn't one specifically listed)
Get Stratagem support
And any other benefits of being *Astra Militarum*?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additional: Furthermore, could you include other Astra Militarum units in those Detachments (made up of units from the Imperial Guard codex rather than R&H) in your army, given that they share the Astra Militarum keyword (and that is a keyword which you are allowed to mix into a detachment)? Or other Astra Militarum Detachments that still have the Imperium keyword?

1. Yes. If all units in a detachment are Astra Militarum units, the detachment is a Astra Militarum detachment.
2. GWish Answer: No. Renegades and Heretics is not a Regiment of the Astra Militarum, as demonstrated by the various units with Renegades and Heretics keyword that lack Astra Militarum keyword.
3. Yes. Any benefits from being an Astra Militarum detachment, other than a Regimental Doctrine, will be afforded that detachment.
4. You can build a detachment of Astra Militarum units that are both Renegades and Heretics and a different Regiment as a valid detachment. However, you will then be using Astra Militarum as your Army Faction keyword.You will be unable to include any Renegades and Heretics units that are not also Astra Militarum in your army since you cannot use Chaos or Imperium to link the units together. So your army will have gained access to the entire list of Astra Militarum units (which remain Imperium units), but lost all the unique Renegades and Heretics units that are Chaos and lack Astra Militarum.

The problem here is that none of the datasheets for Renegades and Heretics have the Astra Militarum keyword in addition to R&H. The only detachment that could be made for an R&H army would be a vehicular army using only the vehicles on the R&H list. If you're taking only those vehicles there seems to a be question of whether you can choose R&H to start with if all your selections are Astra Militarum. You're really just running an Astra Militarum army.

(You also don't get to have an Astra Militarum detachment and get to call it a Renegades and Heretics army, as "The following datasheets from Codex: Astra Militarum can be
included in a Renegades and Heretics army" would prevent you from doing that as well as having only Astra Militarum as the only common keyword).

 doctortom wrote:
The problem here is that none of the datasheets for Renegades and Heretics have the Astra Militarum keyword in addition to R&H. The only detachment that could be made for an R&H army would be a vehicular army using only the vehicles on the R&H list. If you're taking only those vehicles there seems to a be question of whether you can choose R&H to start with if all your selections are Astra Militarum. You're really just running an Astra Militarum army.

(You also don't get to have an Astra Militarum detachment and get to call it a Renegades and Heretics army, as "The following datasheets from Codex: Astra Militarum can be
included in a Renegades and Heretics army" would prevent you from doing that as well as having only Astra Militarum as the only common keyword).

You're quite right. The common keyword would be Astra Militarum, with Renegades and Heretics being the regiment selection and a mixed Chaos and Imperium detachment.

However, one funny edge case is taking 3 Baneblades in a Chaos army, with regimental doctrines and stratagem support. But that's an edge case and isn't worth worrying about.

So, yeah DoctorTom hit the mark here. Unless you make an army solely of Codex/Legends ASTRA MILLITARUM units, you won't get stratagems or a doctrine.

Since there is an HQ requirement for all detachments, this can't happen.

As Unit1126PLL the exception is the SHD with 3 Baneblades. While they will get a doctrine, all the stratagems require the ASTRA MILLITARUM keyword, so you'd only be able to use the stratagems on the Baneblades.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So, yeah DoctorTom hit the mark here. Unless you make an army solely of Codex/Legends ASTRA MILLITARUM units, you won't get stratagems or a doctrine.

Since there is an HQ requirement for all detachments, this can't happen.

As Unit1126PLL the exception is the SHD with 3 Baneblades. While they will get a doctrine, all the stratagems require the ASTRA MILLITARUM keyword, so you'd only be able to use the stratagems on the Baneblades.

Well, you could bring 1 Baneblade as a SHA (which won't get army traits, but still unlocks stratagems afaik as an AM Detachment) and then play those stratagems on units taken in other detachments.

So let's say you have a normal R&H detachment with a few Basilisks taken from the codex. You could still use the Aerial Spotters stratagem on the basilisks (since they still have the requisite keywords) as long as you gain access to those stratagems in some other way (e.g. 1x Baneblade in a SHA). If SHA doesn't give access to stratagems, you'd have to use a regular SHD instead.

simply put it's a gamey mess.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So, yeah DoctorTom hit the mark here. Unless you make an army solely of Codex/Legends ASTRA MILLITARUM units, you won't get stratagems or a doctrine.

Since there is an HQ requirement for all detachments, this can't happen.

As Unit1126PLL the exception is the SHD with 3 Baneblades. While they will get a doctrine, all the stratagems require the ASTRA MILLITARUM keyword, so you'd only be able to use the stratagems on the Baneblades.

Well, you could bring 1 Baneblade as a SHA (which won't get army traits, but still unlocks stratagems afaik as an AM Detachment) and then play those stratagems on units taken in other detachments.

So let's say you have a normal R&H detachment with a few Basilisks taken from the codex. You could still use the Aerial Spotters stratagem on the basilisks (since they still have the requisite keywords) as long as you gain access to those stratagems in some other way (e.g. 1x Baneblade in a SHA). If SHA doesn't give access to stratagems, you'd have to use a regular SHD instead.

True, a SHA will get stratagems but not a trait.