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Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

This has likely been said before, but...

Despite being frequently touted in the fluff as the main threat (or at least the most immediate threat) facing the Imperium, you so rarely see Chaos on the tabletop, at least in my neck of the woods. I think the main problem is that right now, they're little more than edgy Marines that don't get half the GW support of their loyalist counterparts. Fluff-wise, I think another problem is that they seemingly don't have much in the way of interesting motivations.

If GW wants to see Chaos used more often as a faction, I think they need to put some focus on Chaos cults and make them a force to be reckoned with, not just CSM's cannon-fodder. In many ways, the Genestealer Cults are what Chaos cults should have been: a dark mirror of the Imperial Guard, rising up against the Imperium under the patronage of sinister forces. On the fluff side, they would at least have some amount of free will and the possibility for advancement, whereas GSC are just those poor suckers who are doomed to lose even when they "win" (in fact, especially when they "win"). They could be led by charismatic revolutionaries who genuinely believe that the Imperium, as an institution, is holding back humankind.

I see a lot of possibilities for Chaos special characters who are not CSM or daemons. E.g.: a rogue psyker who thinks humankind's psychic potential is being stymied by the Ecclesiarchy's superstition and persecution, and wants the help of the Chaos gods to nudge the human race towards the next step of its evolution.

.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/19 19:47:13


Cadians, Drukhari

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in ca
Mysterious Techpriest






-Guardsman- wrote:
This has likely been said before, but...

Despite being frequently touted in the fluff as the main threat (or at least the most immediate threat) facing the Imperium, you so rarely see Chaos on the tabletop, at least in my neck of the woods. I think the main problem is that right now, they're little more than edgy Marines that don't get half the GW support of their loyalist counterparts. Fluff-wise, I think another problem is that they seemingly don't have much in the way of interesting motivations.

If GW wants to see Chaos used more often as a faction, I think they need to put some focus on Chaos cults and make them a force to be reckoned with, not just CSM's cannon-fodder. In many ways, the Genestealer Cults are what Chaos cults should have been: a dark mirror of the Imperial Guard, rising up against the Imperium under the patronage of sinister forces. On the fluff side, they would at least have the advantage of having some amount of free will and the possibility for advancement, whereas GSC are just suckers who are doomed to lose even when they "win" (in fact, especially when they "win"). They could be led by charismatic revolutionaries who genuinely believe that the Imperium, as an institution, is holding back humankind. I see a lot of potential for Chaos special characters who are not CSM or daemons.

.


you mean like an army with renegades and heretics?

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Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
you mean like an army with renegades and heretics?

Pretty much, yes. Something viable on its own, without the need for CSM. On the tabletop, I imagine a Chaos cult would play a bit like the Imperial Guard: shooty horde with vehicle support. Less disciplined, but with better psychic abilities and maybe a bit more of a melee focus.

Cadians, Drukhari

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Totally disagree, for me, the only cool marines are CSM

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues

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Yeah, I get a GK codex shouldn't be about GK, but about inquisition vibe. I don't think that people that like to play csm are going to agree with such an proposition.


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Made in ca
Mysterious Techpriest






Karol wrote:
Yeah, I get a GK codex shouldn't be about GK, but about inquisition vibe. I don't think that people that like to play csm are going to agree with such an proposition.



i'm pretty sure he's not asking for CSM to go away, just for regular mortals to be playable as renegades and heretics.
Csm are like 1% of chaos's force, theyre the "elite" chaos forces.
most of Chaos fights with R&H and demons.

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Made in gb
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Port Carmine

Cultists are right there in the CSM codex. What the factions mostly consist of in the fluff isn't necessarily what people want to play.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues

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Made in us
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In My Lab

 harlokin wrote:
Cultists are right there in the CSM codex. What the factions mostly consist of in the fluff isn't necessarily what people want to play.
Cultists are not an army.

Just looking at GW's site, Imperium has...

Sisters
Custodes
Ad Mech
Guard
Knights
Marines

Not gonna count Sisters of Silence, Inquisition or Assassins, as they're lacking in a Dex. Arguably I could include Inquisition, but I won't.

Chaos has...

Daemons
Knights
Marines

They could and probably should have a Guard and Ad Mech equivalent. Renegades and Heretics, and Dark Mech.

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Right behind you.

Arguably, Dark Mechanicus falls under R&H more than they do their own bit.
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Sedona, Arizona

I disagree with regards to the current CSM codex. It being marine-centric is fine, and I support it staying that way.

That said, we should 110% get traitor guard / renegades and heretics as their own army... And not the abandon-ware forgeworld bs.

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In My Lab

 Kanluwen wrote:
Arguably, Dark Mechanicus falls under R&H more than they do their own bit.
I'd rather they be separate, but reasonable arguments can be made that they should be together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 morganfreeman wrote:
I disagree with regards to the current CSM codex. It being marine-centric is fine, and I support it staying that way.

That said, we should 110% get traitor guard / renegades and heretics as their own army... And not the abandon-ware forgeworld bs.
I don't think the OP wants more non-Marines in the CSM Dex, they want more Chaos Codecs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/19 20:32:08


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Port Carmine

That seems to be an argument for symmetry for the sake of symmetry, rather than any genuine desire by any fether to play the 'factions'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/19 20:35:53


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
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Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

 JNAProductions wrote:
They could and probably should have a Guard and Ad Mech equivalent. Renegades and Heretics, and Dark Mech.

I think Dark Mech should remain more of an auxiliary addition to both R&H and traitor marines.

And you could add fallen Sisters of Battle to R&H.


 harlokin wrote:
That seems to be an argument for symmetry for the sake of symmetry, rather than any genuine desire for any fether to play the 'factions'.

I wouldn't make R&H symmetrical with IG. I think they should be less of an organized fighting force and more of a ragtag gang of revolutionaries including civilian cultists, rogue IG and PDF, and some Dark Mech and CSM auxiliaries.

.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/19 20:36:06


Cadians, Drukhari

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In My Lab

 harlokin wrote:
That seems to be an argument for symmetry for the sake of symmetry, rather than any genuine desire for any fether to play the 'factions'.
If other factions get more support, people will play them more.

And what's wrong with Chaos getting more toys? They certainly need it more than Loyalists do. (One could argue that the various Xenos need it the most, though.)

As for R&H, I'd think it should include everything from hordes of slavering fanatics to well-trained Chaos militia.
Options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/19 20:36:53


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Made in ca
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Even in the BL books I've read, when the Imperium is battling chaos, it is most often that they're fighting against Cultists, Chaos Militia, or traitor guardsmen, rather than fighting CSM. It's rare to even see them, and they're typically set up as being a handful of CSM as the big bads leading the Chaos Mortals.

Hell, if GW dropped Blood Pact soldiers as models tomorrow, I'd buy in to that so damn fast.

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A lot of Chaos marine units could be combined, which would free up more space for more non-Marines.

There is a relatively limited amount of design space for slightly different spikey humans though, which is a problem Cultists and Tzaangors already suffer from.
   
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In My Lab

 Lord Damocles wrote:
A lot of Chaos marine units could be combined, which would free up more space for more non-Marines.

There is a relatively limited amount of design space for slightly different spikey humans though, which is a problem Cultists and Tzaangors already suffer from.
Take inspiration from GSC. They've got a lot of distinct units.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
A lot of Chaos marine units could be combined, which would free up more space for more non-Marines.

There is a relatively limited amount of design space for slightly different spikey humans though, which is a problem Cultists and Tzaangors already suffer from.

Take inspiration from GSC. They've got a lot of distinct units.

Eh. Neophtes and Brood Brothers have significant overlap, as do Acolytes and Matamorphs.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







I generally agree. Chaos should be ecclectic, wild, and diverse. Not just regular SM but with 1 unit of mortals and a few badly-ported-over Daemons.

Oh, and legs instead of hoverpads on the ridiculous vehicles.
   
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 Rippy wrote:
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The amount of heresy in this thread...
CSM are in a better position to be spiky marines than ever.

GW can do their restartes thing with loyalists, and give us the long overdue heresy era tech/OG style.
They don't look anything alike anymore. Put Primaris vehicles next to more or less chaosified heresy vehicles you wouldn't even assume they are both marine gear.
And it would be closer to the lore, doubly so now that imperial armour has basically gone the way of the dodo.

R&H should be a totally separate faction like IG and there is at least a chance to see them again what with the existing renegade kits from black fortress, however small it may be.
Then again, being damn near squatted does not promise good things.
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

I mean, add some spikes and chains to any human-ish dude with a gun, call them Cant-achans and rock the Guard rules with cool models. There's your renegades and heretics.

The systems are there... you just need to use them.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 harlokin wrote:
That seems to be an argument for symmetry for the sake of symmetry, rather than any genuine desire by any fether to play the 'factions'.

it would be if it hadn't allready existed, was vastly different and actually interesting.


ergo, go read IA13.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 greatbigtree wrote:
I mean, add some spikes and chains to any human-ish dude with a gun, call them Cant-achans and rock the Guard rules with cool models. There's your renegades and heretics.

The systems are there... you just need to use them.


bold words for someone within dread sock range, how about we curb Dark eldar instead and eldar and combine it into ynnari, since it's both the "same"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/19 21:23:08


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Mississippi

 JNAProductions wrote:

Cultists are not an army.



Perhaps they should be.

I'm not too familiar with the chaos books, but I think you could have a design space for three, maybe four chaos armies - CSM as elite warriors who have embraced the dark passions and cruelty of mankind, Renegades as the soldiering army that rejects the fodder view of its troops and embraces self-serving appeasement and corruption, the Dark Mechanicum whom imbue daemonic power into their machines and research forbidden technology, and Cultists - those religious fanatics who have rejected the callous Imperium to worship and serve power-granting daemons.

CSM - corrupted versions of space marines
Renegades - corrupted versions of imperial guard
Dark Mechanicum - corrupted versions of Admech
Cultists - chaos version of Genestealer Cults, focusing on the cult aspect. Basic units would be rabble with shoddy armor and weapons, but a faith system that could bolster aspects (bonus to hit, wound, invulnerable saves - the like). Their units could summon or temporarily transform into daemons (or assume daemonic aspects), their elite units would benefit from chaos marks and mutations. They could have bestial transports and mutated beasts and/or vehicles. They could have psychic powers or abilities that mutate themselves or the enemy, and possibly even convert or corrupt enemy units.

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Australia

There is definitely a lot of potential to expand the many flavours of Chaos, but I am very happy with Chaos being CSM-centric. Maybe after we've got our Cult Legions etc

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Right behind you.

For every time people say "go read IA13", I can't help but wonder if they actually read the Vraks, Lost and the Damned, and Tyrant's Legion lists.

They're extremely different concepts built around the same thing. It all varies wildly thanks to the design ethos of the times though.
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






 greatbigtree wrote:
I mean, add some spikes and chains to any human-ish dude with a gun, call them Cant-achans and rock the Guard rules with cool models. There's your renegades and heretics.

The systems are there... you just need to use them.


except i can't play them in the same list as CSM/Demons/Knights because they wouldnt share a keyword. Yes i can ask my opponent if they'll let me but by default, the answer is no. So why exactly would i take the time to conver hordes of guardsmen if im not 100% i'll be allowed to play them.

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Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Not Online!!! wrote:

bold words for someone within dread sock range, how about we curb Dark eldar instead and eldar and combine it into ynnari, since it's both the "same"


I'll have you know I *could* arm myself with 3 Dreadsocks. Not exactly sure how I'd wield them at the same time... maybe make a flail out of them?

Also, I have no vested interest in Dark Eldar since 4th edition. Eldar... never. So... I mean... ok?


I don't find them to be the same. But honestly, I didn't feel like Mechanicus needed it's own branch. Adding a couple of Characters to the Guard codex, a new infantry sprue, and a couple of new vehicles and !BAM! you can represent the Mechanicus with the Guard Codex. And if there wasn't a Chaos Marine dex, it would be simple to choose an Imperial Chapter and run them as "Counts as" whatever.

If I recall, someone took the Spacewolf Codex and Khornate models and built a CC-oriented list that outperformed a Chaos Khorne list. (Zerkers on Juggers for Wolf riders, for example. Possessed as Wolfen? There were some pretty easy counts-as. Dreads with Invulns to actually make it to CC.).

I've never understood someone feeling "neglected" in the rules department when you can so easily counts-as something, and rock your awesome models.


@Vladmir - You can ally them with Loyalist Marines... with spikes. And you can ally them with Loyalist Knights... with spikes. Daemons might be a bit of a stretch. Not sure how to handle that off-the-cuff.

If you just want to use the Daemon models, the lesser ones could probably be counts-as something Imperial. Crusader models for Blood Letters. Ogryns for medium Daemons. Sanctioned Psykers for the Tzeentch daemons. Rough Riders for Daemonettes on Steeds?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/19 21:55:19


 
   
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 Thadin wrote:
Even in the BL books I've read, when the Imperium is battling chaos, it is most often that they're fighting against Cultists, Chaos Militia, or traitor guardsmen, rather than fighting CSM. It's rare to even see them, and they're typically set up as being a handful of CSM as the big bads leading the Chaos Mortals.

Hell, if GW dropped Blood Pact soldiers as models tomorrow, I'd buy in to that so damn fast.


Damn right. Chaos ought to be shown in all of humanity's varied forms just like the Imperium, mirroring each other with a twist. Somebody has to stand up for the little guy

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Astonished of Heck

On one hand, I could see the appeal of a L&D or R&H codex, but on the other hand I would rather see Chaos diversified in the way they have been going, basically by their patron.

Unfortunately, that only works for four of them. For the rest there are two different groups those that are left: those who use Chaos and those who just hate the Imperium. These would actually be generally Chaos vs Renegades. Examples of the former would be Black Legion and Word Bearers, and the latter would be Night Lords.

The more general Chaos should be able to access Chaos Daemons book or have access to lesser-aligned Daemons. The lack of Daemon discussion is something I find rather amazing for a Chaos thread, actually.

The Renegades would be something akin to IG with GSC type equipment and be able to work with Night Lords and MAYBE Alpha Legion.

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