Switch Theme:

Making dud units fun and relevant in 9th.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Hey everybody, usually people write out overhauls they would make to whole factions or addressing troublesome issues regarding certain broken units or just making up new units in general, but what about the units that almost never see the light of day?

Share how you would change units up to make them either more fun to play with flavour wise or what you think are dud units that need their time to shine in the competitive spotlight!

The ones that come to mind for me are:

Imperial Guard

Crusaders: They're a really cool looking unit that have never really had a role outside one gimmick back in 8th ed when they could get 2+ invulnerable saves between either a psychic power or the Take Cover strat before it got errata'ed. I think they would be a lot more interesting if they were 2W each and they had a bodyguard rule where they choose either an Astra Militarum or Adeptus Ministorum character at the beginning of the game and they prevent that character from being targeted during the shooting phase as long as they are within 3" of the Crusader unit. This actually gives them a role that matches them for the fluff, rather than some weird leftover from the Witch Hunters codex that is shoehorned into two codexes because GW doesn't know what to do with them.

Ratlings: Poor Ratlings, with how iffy snipers are in the meta now, I feel like they deserve some love. At their current price point they are definitely overpriced. I feel like they should have their "Find the Best Spot" rule changed to being outside of 9" from enemy units rather than 18", now that the board has gotten significantly smaller. It also gives them more utility to helping nab objectives at the beginning of the game. I would give them a basic 5+ save given that it makes their other rule, naturally stealthy, more meaningful, since that way they at least have a 3+ save. Other than that, I'm hesitant to give them a damage buff because I don't think they should be a super-damaging unit, but rather a skirmisher annoyance to weaker HQ's, so I would just drop their points to a reasonable price that would make guard players consider them for utility reasons like deploy scramblers. I think 5 points a guy sounds reasonable.

Ogryn: The introduction of Bullgryn way back in 6th edition basically made them redundant, which is sad for such an iconic unit. I would double down on them being more of a glass hammer unit to the Bullgryn's defensive CC focus. I would make the Ripper Gun increase in AP and damage by 1 when they are within half range of the weapon when shooting and for Ogryn to have +3 attacks on the charge rather than one in their version of the Avalanche of Muscle rule. This makes them a lot better for horde clearing and makes it so having a squad of 4 in a Chimera can actually do something when they come out and charge. I was partly debating whether or not the Ripper Gun should have D2 in CC as well, but I feel like that's covered well enough by the buff by the Ripper Gun in its shooting profile.

Wyrdvane Psykers: These guys have always kind of been outshone by either the Primaris Psyker or the Astropath in terms of psychic efficiency and they're only made worse by the presence of Abhor the Witch as a secondary nowadays, as if IG needs more tailor made secondaries made against them. I can't really address a core rule issue, so in terms of making them more interesting as an actual choice, let them cast normally without being nerfed to just using a D6 for psychic tests. Give them a baseline +1 to cast for a squad of 3, upgraded to a +2 for a squad of 6+. I'd bring them down to 7 ppm, so they're cheaper than an Astropath, and can cast more consistently, but are more vulnerable to shooting due to lack of character status. They would also not be a bad choice for a backfield choice for deploy scramblers or even some psychic secondaries.

Veterans: Just let them become troops again, there's really no point for them to be in elites when Scions can count as troops. I'd also like to see them to have doctrines that each unit can choose prior to the game starts, where they can have a 4+ save, camo cloaks that give them -1 to hit when in cover, or demolitions which allows them to have the MELTA BOMB keyword (assuming that the IG eventually get the same strat as the SM currently do) and use the Melta Bomb or the Grenadiers strat for 0CP.

Conscripts: They DID have their time in the sun, but then they got nerfed into the ground so hard that they basically don't exist anymore outside of fringe Valhallan lists. If they stay at their current price point and their FAQ rules regarding orders, they need to have Send in the Next Wave as a baseline rule built in, where if the squad is destroyed you immediately roll on a 4+ to see if an identical unit is spawned in your deployment zone. Each unit may only do this once, and each successive attempt has a -1 modifier to the roll, meaning if you tried and failed with the first unit, the second time you try it with another unit that dies you only succeed on a 5+, then a 6+, etc.

Orks


Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy: A fantastic flavourful model that just doesn't do anything atm. I'd change it up by making it more of a buff vehicle rather than an offensive one, since as a foodtruck you'd think it would do more than just leave squig mines. Make them just have 2 heavy squig launchers than the current weird set up where there's a regular one and a heavy one. Then give it a buff 6" aura like +1 to advance and charge as Orks try to catch up with to eat some squigs on the go, or maybe adding a D6 to an Ork unit's advance or charge roll, and discarding the lowest. Something to reflect that it has its origins as a food truck.

BoomDakka Snazzwagon: Has a similar problem to Rukkatrukk where it simply gets outclassed by the much more versatile KBB. Change their Mek's Speshul to a damage 2 weapon that gets +1 to hit when it's within half range of their target, makes it so they have incentive to get close to use their whole complement of weapons while handling the ork issue of dealing with multi-wound models with decent armour saves.

Burna Boyz: I don't think they've ever been good outside a burna wagon way back when templates were still a thing. Make burnas 12" range and D6 shots like everyone else, give them a baseline 5+ save (this is a consistent problem for Ork elite units in general) and make it so that their cutta mode gives them +1 to wound and damage against vehicles.

Storm Boyz: Really overcosted as they are right now, either bring their points down to 8 like Kommandos or 9, OR they could make them feel regimented and disciplined like they are in the fluff and add a rule called "Stormboy Blitz Drills", where they never suffer morale attrition modifiers and gain +1 attack on the charge. Makes them feel more like shock troops and account for the difference in number when they hit enemy lines compared to regular boyz mobz.

Killa Kanz: They really should have better weapon stats for their ranged weapons given their premium price point. I would make them have access to rokkit racks so they at least have 2 shots per model, the grotzooka should have at least AP-1 and D2. The other changes would really be more points based, or at least on what stratagem and unit support there is from Big Meks beyond just a 5++ save from the KFF.

Blitza Bommer: Always outdone by its burna bommer cousin, given that they never real deal legitimate damage to their intended target which are vehicles./monsters. I think they should change the bombing mechanic away from mortal wounds personally, since it never does enough compared to normal shooting on actual gunship flyers. Make it so when they drop the boom bomm on an enemy that the unit suffers D3 S10 AP-3 D3+3 damage hits. Nice enough spread to deal decent damage to bigger targets but not enough to make alpha striking with Blitzas too feasible if the enemy has properly set up their units.

Gorkanaut: Really it's more a price decrease or wound reduction to 17 would make a big difference. A slight buff to the Deffstorm megashoota to D2 would also make their shooting more relevant.

Stompa: Hoo boy, here we go. Unfortunately, with the pricing of the kustom stompa it's unlikely to have its points dropped down to where it should be in the 500-600 range, but if we were to keep it in the same price range as is, I would change it to have a baseline of BS4+, as there's no way it wouldn't have grot targeting systems. Remove the shoot once and use once restriction of the supa rokkit. I'd also change the god awful damage table to not affect the Stompa until it reaches 19 wounds, and even then only reduce it's movement and attacks rather than reducing it's WS. Give the Stompa the Ramshackle rule that works on a 5+, and give an option at the beginning of the game to have either a Power Field that gives a 5+ invulnerable save or a Big Red Button, which lets you roll at the beginning of the Shooting Phase or Fight Phase (you can't choose both in the same turn). On a 3+, it lets you fire a weapon twice (other than the Supa-Gatler) for the shooting phase, but on a 1 it suffers D3 mortal wounds. For the fight phase, on a 3+ it allows you to double its current attacks characteristic and on a 1 it suffers D3 mortal wounds. Either way, this is a way to either provide defense or offense for a unit that is woefully overpriced for what it brings to the table.

So those are some of the units that come to mind for me, how about you guys?



   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

I did some Stompa revisions a while ago.

Have a gander: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/780938.page

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Some disorganized thoughts:

 Grimskul wrote:

Crusaders: They're a really cool looking unit that have never really had a role outside one gimmick back in 8th ed when they could get 2+ invulnerable saves between either a psychic power or the Take Cover strat before it got errata'ed. I think they would be a lot more interesting if they were 2W each and they had a bodyguard rule where they choose either an Astra Militarum or Adeptus Ministorum character at the beginning of the game and they prevent that character from being targeted during the shooting phase as long as they are within 3" of the Crusader unit. This actually gives them a role that matches them for the fluff, rather than some weird leftover from the Witch Hunters codex that is shoehorned into two codexes because GW doesn't know what to do with them.

That's probably reasonable. The double moving, 2+ save version of these guys always felt like an oversight. They made the most sense to me when they were the tanky option in a unit of inquisitorial henchmen. So the crusaders weren't that killy, but the death cult assassins were, and the crusaders kept those guys alive. I like the concept of "normal-ish humans with decent equipment," but they're a bit all over the place at the moment. And they feel much more at home in the sisters book (where they also exist) or with an inquisitor than they do in the middle of a guard regiment.


Ratlings: Poor Ratlings, with how iffy snipers are in the meta now, I feel like they deserve some love. At their current price point they are definitely overpriced. I feel like they should have their "Find the Best Spot" rule changed to being outside of 9" from enemy units rather than 18", now that the board has gotten significantly smaller. It also gives them more utility to helping nab objectives at the beginning of the game. I would give them a basic 5+ save given that it makes their other rule, naturally stealthy, more meaningful, since that way they at least have a 3+ save. Other than that, I'm hesitant to give them a damage buff because I don't think they should be a super-damaging unit, but rather a skirmisher annoyance to weaker HQ's, so I would just drop their points to a reasonable price that would make guard players consider them for utility reasons like deploy scramblers. I think 5 points a guy sounds reasonable.

Better infiltrate? Cool. 3+ save in cover? Cool. 5 points for all that? Woah. Hold up. That would put a squad of 10 at 50 points. For comparison a squad of 5 eldar rangers (snipers with a 3+ save in cover and deepstrike instead of infiltrate) costs 75 points. At 5 points, these guys would be more lethal and survivable for their points than rangers, plus they'd have shoot sharp and scarper (which rangers would love to have. So 5 points is probably a little too low (although 15 points on rangers is probably a little too high.)


Ogryn: The introduction of Bullgryn way back in 6th edition basically made them redundant, which is sad for such an iconic unit. I would double down on them being more of a glass hammer unit to the Bullgryn's defensive CC focus. I would make the Ripper Gun increase in AP and damage by 1 when they are within half range of the weapon when shooting and for Ogryn to have +3 attacks on the charge rather than one in their version of the Avalanche of Muscle rule. This makes them a lot better for horde clearing and makes it so having a squad of 4 in a Chimera can actually do something when they come out and charge. I was partly debating whether or not the Ripper Gun should have D2 in CC as well, but I feel like that's covered well enough by the buff by the Ripper Gun in its shooting profile.

Prooobably okay. With the right points adjustments. Making normal ogryn more killy and boosting their shooting enough to matter is probably a good approach. I already get nervous when these guys charge me though, so adding 3 attacks per model seems like something that needs to be considered and costed with care.


Wyrdvane Psykers: These guys have always kind of been outshone by either the Primaris Psyker or the Astropath in terms of psychic efficiency and they're only made worse by the presence of Abhor the Witch as a secondary nowadays, as if IG needs more tailor made secondaries made against them. I can't really address a core rule issue, so in terms of making them more interesting as an actual choice, let them cast normally without being nerfed to just using a D6 for psychic tests. Give them a baseline +1 to cast for a squad of 3, upgraded to a +2 for a squad of 6+. I'd bring them down to 7 ppm, so they're cheaper than an Astropath, and can cast more consistently, but are more vulnerable to shooting due to lack of character status. They would also not be a bad choice for a backfield choice for deploy scramblers or even some psychic secondaries.

That would work. Personally, I do miss the days when they just had a nifty shooting attack, but that probably made more sense when shutting down psychic powers was less of a thing. Instead of a bonus to cast, what about doing the warlock thing and just making every smite a super smite while the unit contains at least X models? And maybe let a nearby primaris psyker let the wyrdvanes count as having Y more models than they actually do? That's a unit I wouldn't mind sticking in a chimera.


Veterans: Just let them become troops again, there's really no point for them to be in elites when Scions can count as troops. I'd also like to see them to have doctrines that each unit can choose prior to the game starts, where they can have a 4+ save, camo cloaks that give them -1 to hit when in cover, or demolitions which allows them to have the MELTA BOMB keyword (assuming that the IG eventually get the same strat as the SM currently do) and use the Melta Bomb or the Grenadiers strat for 0CP.

Totally. And at the risk of overdesigning, I wouldn't mind seeing veterans fleshed out to get regiment or "doctrine" specific strats. So catachan vets might be good at charging out of reserves. Tallarn vets might be allowed to move after arriving from reserves. That sort of thing. Let vets have the cool, relatively "elite" abilities that would be too much on big squads of normal guardsmen.


Conscripts: They DID have their time in the sun, but then they got nerfed into the ground so hard that they basically don't exist anymore outside of fringe Valhallan lists. If they stay at their current price point and their FAQ rules regarding orders, they need to have Send in the Next Wave as a baseline rule built in, where if the squad is destroyed you immediately roll on a 4+ to see if an identical unit is spawned in your deployment zone. Each unit may only do this once, and each successive attempt has a -1 modifier to the roll, meaning if you tried and failed with the first unit, the second time you try it with another unit that dies you only succeed on a 5+, then a 6+, etc.

I'm less keen on this one. It adds a mild element of bookkeeping, and "free" points make me nervous. Even if those points would be arriving in your backfield. The tricky thing with conscripts is that their "thing" is being both really unimpressive in terms of offense and defense but being cheap enough to let you spam a ton of bodies. But if you make those bodies too useful (even just be respawning to hold a backfield objective or countercharge the unit poking your artillery, then they quickly become a stat checker. Did you bring enough shots to clear through a million conscripts? No? Then I win.

I like that your approach doesn't modify the efficiency of a given conscript model. Wave after wave of dudes is pretty appropriate for the unit's fluff. I just worry that your proposed change either doesn't make the unit more useful, in which case it's added complexity without making the unit more desirable, or else it does make the unit more useful and risks being hard to balance because the new benefits are "free." I'm probably being overly critical.


Burna Boyz: I don't think they've ever been good outside a burna wagon way back when templates were still a thing. Make burnas 12" range and D6 shots like everyone else, give them a baseline 5+ save (this is a consistent problem for Ork elite units in general) and make it so that their cutta mode gives them +1 to wound and damage against vehicles.

I like most of that. I'm worried that a 5+ save would require a points increase that makes them less efficient while also not actually offering much protection given the current meta. But mostly agree with these.

   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Wyldhunt wrote:
Some disorganized thoughts:

 Grimskul wrote:

Crusaders: They're a really cool looking unit that have never really had a role outside one gimmick back in 8th ed when they could get 2+ invulnerable saves between either a psychic power or the Take Cover strat before it got errata'ed. I think they would be a lot more interesting if they were 2W each and they had a bodyguard rule where they choose either an Astra Militarum or Adeptus Ministorum character at the beginning of the game and they prevent that character from being targeted during the shooting phase as long as they are within 3" of the Crusader unit. This actually gives them a role that matches them for the fluff, rather than some weird leftover from the Witch Hunters codex that is shoehorned into two codexes because GW doesn't know what to do with them.

That's probably reasonable. The double moving, 2+ save version of these guys always felt like an oversight. They made the most sense to me when they were the tanky option in a unit of inquisitorial henchmen. So the crusaders weren't that killy, but the death cult assassins were, and the crusaders kept those guys alive. I like the concept of "normal-ish humans with decent equipment," but they're a bit all over the place at the moment. And they feel much more at home in the sisters book (where they also exist) or with an inquisitor than they do in the middle of a guard regiment.


Ratlings: Poor Ratlings, with how iffy snipers are in the meta now, I feel like they deserve some love. At their current price point they are definitely overpriced. I feel like they should have their "Find the Best Spot" rule changed to being outside of 9" from enemy units rather than 18", now that the board has gotten significantly smaller. It also gives them more utility to helping nab objectives at the beginning of the game. I would give them a basic 5+ save given that it makes their other rule, naturally stealthy, more meaningful, since that way they at least have a 3+ save. Other than that, I'm hesitant to give them a damage buff because I don't think they should be a super-damaging unit, but rather a skirmisher annoyance to weaker HQ's, so I would just drop their points to a reasonable price that would make guard players consider them for utility reasons like deploy scramblers. I think 5 points a guy sounds reasonable.

Better infiltrate? Cool. 3+ save in cover? Cool. 5 points for all that? Woah. Hold up. That would put a squad of 10 at 50 points. For comparison a squad of 5 eldar rangers (snipers with a 3+ save in cover and deepstrike instead of infiltrate) costs 75 points. At 5 points, these guys would be more lethal and survivable for their points than rangers, plus they'd have shoot sharp and scarper (which rangers would love to have. So 5 points is probably a little too low (although 15 points on rangers is probably a little too high.)


Ogryn: The introduction of Bullgryn way back in 6th edition basically made them redundant, which is sad for such an iconic unit. I would double down on them being more of a glass hammer unit to the Bullgryn's defensive CC focus. I would make the Ripper Gun increase in AP and damage by 1 when they are within half range of the weapon when shooting and for Ogryn to have +3 attacks on the charge rather than one in their version of the Avalanche of Muscle rule. This makes them a lot better for horde clearing and makes it so having a squad of 4 in a Chimera can actually do something when they come out and charge. I was partly debating whether or not the Ripper Gun should have D2 in CC as well, but I feel like that's covered well enough by the buff by the Ripper Gun in its shooting profile.

Prooobably okay. With the right points adjustments. Making normal ogryn more killy and boosting their shooting enough to matter is probably a good approach. I already get nervous when these guys charge me though, so adding 3 attacks per model seems like something that needs to be considered and costed with care.


Wyrdvane Psykers: These guys have always kind of been outshone by either the Primaris Psyker or the Astropath in terms of psychic efficiency and they're only made worse by the presence of Abhor the Witch as a secondary nowadays, as if IG needs more tailor made secondaries made against them. I can't really address a core rule issue, so in terms of making them more interesting as an actual choice, let them cast normally without being nerfed to just using a D6 for psychic tests. Give them a baseline +1 to cast for a squad of 3, upgraded to a +2 for a squad of 6+. I'd bring them down to 7 ppm, so they're cheaper than an Astropath, and can cast more consistently, but are more vulnerable to shooting due to lack of character status. They would also not be a bad choice for a backfield choice for deploy scramblers or even some psychic secondaries.

That would work. Personally, I do miss the days when they just had a nifty shooting attack, but that probably made more sense when shutting down psychic powers was less of a thing. Instead of a bonus to cast, what about doing the warlock thing and just making every smite a super smite while the unit contains at least X models? And maybe let a nearby primaris psyker let the wyrdvanes count as having Y more models than they actually do? That's a unit I wouldn't mind sticking in a chimera.


Veterans: Just let them become troops again, there's really no point for them to be in elites when Scions can count as troops. I'd also like to see them to have doctrines that each unit can choose prior to the game starts, where they can have a 4+ save, camo cloaks that give them -1 to hit when in cover, or demolitions which allows them to have the MELTA BOMB keyword (assuming that the IG eventually get the same strat as the SM currently do) and use the Melta Bomb or the Grenadiers strat for 0CP.

Totally. And at the risk of overdesigning, I wouldn't mind seeing veterans fleshed out to get regiment or "doctrine" specific strats. So catachan vets might be good at charging out of reserves. Tallarn vets might be allowed to move after arriving from reserves. That sort of thing. Let vets have the cool, relatively "elite" abilities that would be too much on big squads of normal guardsmen.


Conscripts: They DID have their time in the sun, but then they got nerfed into the ground so hard that they basically don't exist anymore outside of fringe Valhallan lists. If they stay at their current price point and their FAQ rules regarding orders, they need to have Send in the Next Wave as a baseline rule built in, where if the squad is destroyed you immediately roll on a 4+ to see if an identical unit is spawned in your deployment zone. Each unit may only do this once, and each successive attempt has a -1 modifier to the roll, meaning if you tried and failed with the first unit, the second time you try it with another unit that dies you only succeed on a 5+, then a 6+, etc.

I'm less keen on this one. It adds a mild element of bookkeeping, and "free" points make me nervous. Even if those points would be arriving in your backfield. The tricky thing with conscripts is that their "thing" is being both really unimpressive in terms of offense and defense but being cheap enough to let you spam a ton of bodies. But if you make those bodies too useful (even just be respawning to hold a backfield objective or countercharge the unit poking your artillery, then they quickly become a stat checker. Did you bring enough shots to clear through a million conscripts? No? Then I win.

I like that your approach doesn't modify the efficiency of a given conscript model. Wave after wave of dudes is pretty appropriate for the unit's fluff. I just worry that your proposed change either doesn't make the unit more useful, in which case it's added complexity without making the unit more desirable, or else it does make the unit more useful and risks being hard to balance because the new benefits are "free." I'm probably being overly critical.


Burna Boyz: I don't think they've ever been good outside a burna wagon way back when templates were still a thing. Make burnas 12" range and D6 shots like everyone else, give them a baseline 5+ save (this is a consistent problem for Ork elite units in general) and make it so that their cutta mode gives them +1 to wound and damage against vehicles.

I like most of that. I'm worried that a 5+ save would require a points increase that makes them less efficient while also not actually offering much protection given the current meta. But mostly agree with these.



Thanks for the great overview of suggestions!

Good point regarding the ratlings. I probably have a skewed idea of what 5 points is worth given that grots in my codex are worth 5 points and they're absolute garbage and the closest equivalent in terms of stats and models to ratlings since both are S2 and T2. I think 6 ppm is probably a safer bet and closer to their actual value.

Regarding Ogryn, I would assume they would get a slight points bump to accommodate their damage increase. One thing that irks me is how much free attacks SM get when dedicated CC specialists in armies like guard can barely get the same amount compared to regular Primaris units. That's part of the reason why I was giving them 3 on the charge, which still limits them compared to shock assault basically working every time all the time. I could reduce it to D3 instead to make it more variable.

I like your ideas regarding Wrydvane Psykers. Would give them a more distinct role compared to the other psykers in the IG army, and I would agree having some synergy with the Primaris so they have incentive to take both rather than being direct competition. I believe there was an old formation that had the Primaris with the Wrydvanes back in 7th if I remember correctly. It would be a good approximation of that.

Yeah, it's tough figuring out what to do with conscripts tbh without going overboard. Their job is just to be a wall of bodies, which thanfkully is more relevant in this edition, but it's tough to overcome their limits as a unit. Commissars no longer flat out let them ignore morale, but morale is also not as bad as before. GW has made it clear that they want the new baseline points for units to be around 5 ppm, which means you don't really have any leeway points wise to reflect them being less useful than regular guardsmen. I didn't want to bump up the price of regular guardsmen just to make them seem cheaper, so I went for the respawn mechanic since it leans on their one useful aspect as a unit. I'm up for any suggestions on how to make them more valid as a unit, because right now I'm kinda at a roadblock of what we could add that best represents what they are.

Fair point regarding burna boyz. The only reason why I'm suggesting a 5+ save is mainly so that the Loot It! strat would actually apply for models besides Nobz, since almost all infantry barring Flash Gitz, Nobz and Meganobz (who cant use it) have a 6+ save, meaning there's almost never a time you actually want to use it. I'd pass on a points increase though if the 5+ save would warrant it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I did some Stompa revisions a while ago.

Have a gander: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/780938.page


I remember this thread! Definitely better than my current suggestions, the only thing that sucks is that I know that GW won't ever go to the lengths you did simply because they've repeatedly shown to basically just copy-paste the same rules and slap a points cost and call it day. Fingers crossed that one of their designers just copies what you made and actually make the Stompa relevant again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/25 23:48:40


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Grimskul wrote:

Thanks for the great overview of suggestions!

Thanks for reading my ramblings!


Good point regarding the ratlings. I probably have a skewed idea of what 5 points is worth given that grots in my codex are worth 5 points and they're absolute garbage and the closest equivalent in terms of stats and models to ratlings since both are S2 and T2. I think 6 ppm is probably a safer bet and closer to their actual value.

Yeah. Even the 1 point bump to 6 points feels a lot better. Although you'd still be talking about 6 points compared to a ranger's 15 points. So 60 points compared to 75 for 10 bodies instead of 5 at the same save and with the same weapon. Granted, ratling stats are less good than ranger stats.


Regarding Ogryn, I would assume they would get a slight points bump to accommodate their damage increase. One thing that irks me is how much free attacks SM get when dedicated CC specialists in armies like guard can barely get the same amount compared to regular Primaris units. That's part of the reason why I was giving them 3 on the charge, which still limits them compared to shock assault basically working every time all the time. I could reduce it to D3 instead to make it more variable.

I feel you. My striking scorpions are supposed to be lightning fast and used to have 4 attacks on the charge when assault marines had 3. Now they have 2 attacks to an assault marine's 3. Rather than randomizing it, maybe just try it at +2 Attacks? Saves a little rolling, and it will be easier to get an idea of whether it's too much or too little.


Yeah, it's tough figuring out what to do with conscripts tbh without going overboard. Their job is just to be a wall of bodies, which thanfkully is more relevant in this edition, but it's tough to overcome their limits as a unit. Commissars no longer flat out let them ignore morale, but morale is also not as bad as before. GW has made it clear that they want the new baseline points for units to be around 5 ppm, which means you don't really have any leeway points wise to reflect them being less useful than regular guardsmen. I didn't want to bump up the price of regular guardsmen just to make them seem cheaper, so I went for the respawn mechanic since it leans on their one useful aspect as a unit. I'm up for any suggestions on how to make them more valid as a unit, because right now I'm kinda at a roadblock of what we could add that best represents what they are.

I was really surprised their points didn't end up more differentiated from grots and guardsmen. When we found out that points were going up on everything for 9th, I assumed that change was specifically to create more points space between conscripts and guardsmen. Conscripts should feel significantly cheaper than (but also way less efficient than) normal guardsmen, but you can only make it viable to spam so many conscripts before they become a stat check unit. So basically a guardsman should cost X% more than a conscript and feel worth those extra points. Between that and making conscripts a bad target for orders, I think you'd capture the right feel for conscripts. But unfortunately that requires repointing pretty much everything in the game with a 1 or 2 digit points cost. (If guardsmen cost more points, then marines should probably also cost more points, and then terminators should probably cost more points, and so on.)


Fair point regarding burna boyz. The only reason why I'm suggesting a 5+ save is mainly so that the Loot It! strat would actually apply for models besides Nobz, since almost all infantry barring Flash Gitz, Nobz and Meganobz (who cant use it) have a 6+ save, meaning there's almost never a time you actually want to use it. I'd pass on a points increase though if the 5+ save would warrant it.

Hmm. Maybe fix that particular issue on the stratagem level? Change it to grant a 4+ save to units that don't have one, or improve a unit's save by 1 if they already have a 4+ or better?
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Wyldhunt wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:

Thanks for the great overview of suggestions!

Thanks for reading my ramblings!


Good point regarding the ratlings. I probably have a skewed idea of what 5 points is worth given that grots in my codex are worth 5 points and they're absolute garbage and the closest equivalent in terms of stats and models to ratlings since both are S2 and T2. I think 6 ppm is probably a safer bet and closer to their actual value.

Yeah. Even the 1 point bump to 6 points feels a lot better. Although you'd still be talking about 6 points compared to a ranger's 15 points. So 60 points compared to 75 for 10 bodies instead of 5 at the same save and with the same weapon. Granted, ratling stats are less good than ranger stats.


Regarding Ogryn, I would assume they would get a slight points bump to accommodate their damage increase. One thing that irks me is how much free attacks SM get when dedicated CC specialists in armies like guard can barely get the same amount compared to regular Primaris units. That's part of the reason why I was giving them 3 on the charge, which still limits them compared to shock assault basically working every time all the time. I could reduce it to D3 instead to make it more variable.

I feel you. My striking scorpions are supposed to be lightning fast and used to have 4 attacks on the charge when assault marines had 3. Now they have 2 attacks to an assault marine's 3. Rather than randomizing it, maybe just try it at +2 Attacks? Saves a little rolling, and it will be easier to get an idea of whether it's too much or too little.


Yeah, it's tough figuring out what to do with conscripts tbh without going overboard. Their job is just to be a wall of bodies, which thanfkully is more relevant in this edition, but it's tough to overcome their limits as a unit. Commissars no longer flat out let them ignore morale, but morale is also not as bad as before. GW has made it clear that they want the new baseline points for units to be around 5 ppm, which means you don't really have any leeway points wise to reflect them being less useful than regular guardsmen. I didn't want to bump up the price of regular guardsmen just to make them seem cheaper, so I went for the respawn mechanic since it leans on their one useful aspect as a unit. I'm up for any suggestions on how to make them more valid as a unit, because right now I'm kinda at a roadblock of what we could add that best represents what they are.

I was really surprised their points didn't end up more differentiated from grots and guardsmen. When we found out that points were going up on everything for 9th, I assumed that change was specifically to create more points space between conscripts and guardsmen. Conscripts should feel significantly cheaper than (but also way less efficient than) normal guardsmen, but you can only make it viable to spam so many conscripts before they become a stat check unit. So basically a guardsman should cost X% more than a conscript and feel worth those extra points. Between that and making conscripts a bad target for orders, I think you'd capture the right feel for conscripts. But unfortunately that requires repointing pretty much everything in the game with a 1 or 2 digit points cost. (If guardsmen cost more points, then marines should probably also cost more points, and then terminators should probably cost more points, and so on.)


Fair point regarding burna boyz. The only reason why I'm suggesting a 5+ save is mainly so that the Loot It! strat would actually apply for models besides Nobz, since almost all infantry barring Flash Gitz, Nobz and Meganobz (who cant use it) have a 6+ save, meaning there's almost never a time you actually want to use it. I'd pass on a points increase though if the 5+ save would warrant it.

Hmm. Maybe fix that particular issue on the stratagem level? Change it to grant a 4+ save to units that don't have one, or improve a unit's save by 1 if they already have a 4+ or better?


Yeah, from a pure points perspective the ratlings might seem like a way better deal than the eldar rangers, but eldar rangers are not only currently overpriced, but, as you noted for their stats, they have T3 and higher Ld, which does make a significant amount of difference from being wounded since being T2 means you get wounded by anything S4 or higher, and even lasguns wound you on 3's. Rangers also crucially have Obsec, while Ratlings do not. Ratlings as Auxilia lack doctrines as well, whereas rangers do have access to craftworld traits. So I think 6 is right on the sweet spot.

Agreed for the Ogryn, I think +2A on the charge is probably the best way to go.

Yeah, I'm also disappointed that with the new edition where they could really go about a more granular way of pointing things better now that they were scaling up, they still somehow goofed hard when it came to the single digit infantry models. Conscripts and Guardsmen should NOT be the same points as it is, but as you said, without basically starting from square one again with everyone's points shifting, it'll be hard to address the disparity there should be between the two. The only alternative option I can think of is if we go the 30k/AoS route, where you pay a discount for taking more than the initial number of conscripts. So drop down the min number of conscripts to 10, for the same base cost of 50 as guardsmen, but for the next ten you pay 40 points instead of 50, and the next ten to the max for 30 points instead. So you get an overall cost of 30 conscripts for about 120. This is a rough estimate, but it incentivizes taking large blobs rather than just taking cheaper 10 man squads as slot filler when compared to regular guardsmen.

Also, good call regarding the new strat for Loot It!, that would be a great compromise between making it useful to both low armoured infantry and decently armoured units, though in the case of Meganobz, it would have to change the wording since a 1+ save is unfailable besides rolling 1's to save.
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block




I don't know much about Orks unfortunately, so I can't speak for them. Though here's my 2 cents on your Guard suggestions.

 Grimskul wrote:

Crusaders: They're a really cool looking unit that have never really had a role outside one gimmick back in 8th ed when they could get 2+ invulnerable saves between either a psychic power or the Take Cover strat before it got errata'ed. I think they would be a lot more interesting if they were 2W each and they had a bodyguard rule where they choose either an Astra Militarum or Adeptus Ministorum character at the beginning of the game and they prevent that character from being targeted during the shooting phase as long as they are within 3" of the Crusader unit. This actually gives them a role that matches them for the fluff, rather than some weird leftover from the Witch Hunters codex that is shoehorned into two codexes because GW doesn't know what to do with them.


Personally, I'd love them to be an option still in the Inquisition codex. Along with Acolytes.

I like the idea of making them generic bodyguards, perhaps to simplify the keyword just change it to Imperium characters. I'd rather they don't get 2 wounds and just have their point costs adjusted slightly. I think around 14 points as well as the bodyguard ability would be pretty nice.

 Grimskul wrote:

Ratlings: Poor Ratlings, with how iffy snipers are in the meta now, I feel like they deserve some love. At their current price point they are definitely overpriced. I feel like they should have their "Find the Best Spot" rule changed to being outside of 9" from enemy units rather than 18", now that the board has gotten significantly smaller. It also gives them more utility to helping nab objectives at the beginning of the game. I would give them a basic 5+ save given that it makes their other rule, naturally stealthy, more meaningful, since that way they at least have a 3+ save. Other than that, I'm hesitant to give them a damage buff because I don't think they should be a super-damaging unit, but rather a skirmisher annoyance to weaker HQ's, so I would just drop their points to a reasonable price that would make guard players consider them for utility reasons like deploy scramblers. I think 5 points a guy sounds reasonable.


I like both of these buffs, though I would put them at 7 points per model. 5 points for the statline and abilities, 2 points for the sniper rifle.

 Grimskul wrote:

Ogryn: The introduction of Bullgryn way back in 6th edition basically made them redundant, which is sad for such an iconic unit. I would double down on them being more of a glass hammer unit to the Bullgryn's defensive CC focus. I would make the Ripper Gun increase in AP and damage by 1 when they are within half range of the weapon when shooting and for Ogryn to have +3 attacks on the charge rather than one in their version of the Avalanche of Muscle rule. This makes them a lot better for horde clearing and makes it so having a squad of 4 in a Chimera can actually do something when they come out and charge. I was partly debating whether or not the Ripper Gun should have D2 in CC as well, but I feel like that's covered well enough by the buff by the Ripper Gun in its shooting profile.


I do agree that they should be made a ranged alternative to Bullgryns. They're armed with giant shotguns and don't get any of the shotgun rules, at minimum I would give them 18 inch range and +1 strength at half-range. I wouldn't buff Avalanche of Muscle, but I would give Ripper Guns D2 in close combat. They're described as being wielded as clubs.

I would like to see someway to either make them troops or at the very least give them objective secured.

 Grimskul wrote:

Wyrdvane Psykers: These guys have always kind of been outshone by either the Primaris Psyker or the Astropath in terms of psychic efficiency and they're only made worse by the presence of Abhor the Witch as a secondary nowadays, as if IG needs more tailor made secondaries made against them. I can't really address a core rule issue, so in terms of making them more interesting as an actual choice, let them cast normally without being nerfed to just using a D6 for psychic tests. Give them a baseline +1 to cast for a squad of 3, upgraded to a +2 for a squad of 6+. I'd bring them down to 7 ppm, so they're cheaper than an Astropath, and can cast more consistently, but are more vulnerable to shooting due to lack of character status. They would also not be a bad choice for a backfield choice for deploy scramblers or even some psychic secondaries.


My idea was to leave their casting as it was. However, give them the option to forfeit casting their powers entirely and instead give a nearby Astra Telepathica unit within 6 inch their modifier. So, that way you can make an Astropath or Primarus Pskyer cast more reliably.

With just this ability, I'd probably go as low as 5 points per model. As they have a worse statline than Guardsmen and an ability that might not even trigger, at worse might even kill them. So, at least this way they can buff units that can already cast somewhat reliably.

 Grimskul wrote:

Veterans: Just let them become troops again, there's really no point for them to be in elites when Scions can count as troops. I'd also like to see them to have doctrines that each unit can choose prior to the game starts, where they can have a 4+ save, camo cloaks that give them -1 to hit when in cover, or demolitions which allows them to have the MELTA BOMB keyword (assuming that the IG eventually get the same strat as the SM currently do) and use the Melta Bomb or the Grenadiers strat for 0CP.


I definitely agree with this. I'm one of those players that want a return of Infantry Platoons and Veterans as troops. I'd actually like Scions to go back to being elites when in an AM detachment and only available as troops in an MT detachment.

Demolitions could give them access to krak grenades as well as the melta bomb keyword. Maybe even the smoke screen keyword for some more durability. I'm sure veteran guardsmen can read the battlefield better and toss a few smoke grenades to give themselves some cover.

As for carapace armour and camo cloaks, I'd actually prefer things like that to be either regimental doctrines to represent guardsmen being drawn from heavy infantry regiments or light-infantry regiments. Camo-cloaks could be your -1 to hit when outside 12 inch range.

 Grimskul wrote:

Conscripts: They DID have their time in the sun, but then they got nerfed into the ground so hard that they basically don't exist anymore outside of fringe Valhallan lists. If they stay at their current price point and their FAQ rules regarding orders, they need to have Send in the Next Wave as a baseline rule built in, where if the squad is destroyed you immediately roll on a 4+ to see if an identical unit is spawned in your deployment zone. Each unit may only do this once, and each successive attempt has a -1 modifier to the roll, meaning if you tried and failed with the first unit, the second time you try it with another unit that dies you only succeed on a 5+, then a 6+, etc.


I think the simplest way to buff conscripts is make their orders fail on a 1 and only a 1. That way they can at least somewhat reliably still take orders. Send in the Next Wave as a stratagem needs to be changed to work like that Ork one. That brings in a fresh unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 05:39:40


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Grimskul wrote:
Imperial Guard

Crusaders: They're a really cool looking unit that have never really had a role outside one gimmick back in 8th ed when they could get 2+ invulnerable saves between either a psychic power or the Take Cover strat before it got errata'ed. I think they would be a lot more interesting if they were 2W each and they had a bodyguard rule where they choose either an Astra Militarum or Adeptus Ministorum character at the beginning of the game and they prevent that character from being targeted during the shooting phase as long as they are within 3" of the Crusader unit. This actually gives them a role that matches them for the fluff, rather than some weird leftover from the Witch Hunters codex that is shoehorned into two codexes because GW doesn't know what to do with them.
I'm going to be fascinated to see what, if anything, they do with Crusaders in 9e, now that the Adepta Sororitas are getting their own Storm Shield + Power Weapon + Power Armour melee unit in the Sacristans. It's tricky to imagine what niche they'll have left. Crusaders and Death-Cult Assassins always sat more on the "Inquisition" side of the old Witch Hunters Codex, and later editions split those factions apart without really seeming to give much thought to what they were actually going to do after that.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: