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If they are goff they aren't reliable chargers with 58% odds of making it. So if they are always making it instist him to use your dice rather than loaded dices

 p5freak wrote:
Its not 120 attacks, its 150. Base is 2, +1 for melee weapon, +1 for warpath, +1 for greentide (more than 20 models). In addition, he plays them as goffs, which create additional attacks on unmodified hit rolls of 6s. And for 1CP they get S5 They would eat wraith for breakfast And on top of that they can fight again for 3CP at the end of the phase There is no screen in the entire game who would work against that. And thats just the boyz, he can pull off more shenanigans with other units.

Hm yeah that's quite a lot. According to stats that just about eats the last wound of 20 T5/3+ wounds too. On average. Not to mention fighting again. It would have to be some screening shenanigans then, and otherwise tactical very clever play.

What else does he have in his army?

150 attacks with 6+ exploding hitting on a 3+, gets an average of 100+(25*2/3)=117, just under, hits.

Against T3-4, that's 78 wounds.
Against T5, that's a little over 58 wounds.
Against T6-9, that's 39 wounds.

So it won't QUITE take out 20 T5 3+ wounds on average, assuming the Boss Nob only has a Choppa, but it'll get damn close.

Of course, there's that 58% chance of making a charge to deal with. (Also, once you reroll something, no more rerolling it-so a CP reroll should never be used with 'Ere We Go.)

He can use first cp reroll to reroll one dice and then here we go the other. Neither dice is rerolled more than once. But he has to commit to using cp first(it's immediately after).

So rolls 4 and 1. Reroll 1 with cp, get 3. Not enough. He could then with ork rule roll 4 again hoping for 6.

Odds increase lot more and costs 1cp even if first reroll succeeds as cp reroll has to be done first


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So in practice if charge isn't game deciding don't expect orks to do thap. Just not worth it

tneva82 wrote:
If they are goff they aren't reliable chargers with 58% odds of making it. So if they are always making it instist him to use your dice rather than loaded dices

Everyone plays Evil Sunz* in my experience. There's still a very real chance of them failing even with 8" and re-roll one or both* and that will often lose them the game. Orks can only use the Unstoppable Green Tide Stratagem if they are at half their starting strength. Killing 10 models one turn and 20 the next turn works. Killing 19-29 will cost the Orks 5 CP to pass their LD and get back to full strength, killing 14-19 will cost 3 CP because they will survive the LD on their own and be able to UGT. If you stop at 10 you know your opponent cannot UGP, if you get to 19 but you know you won't kill the remaining 11 you might as well stop immediately. Ork Stratagems are very potent, you have to play very cagey to survive the initial onslaught but if you do then you should have it in the bag. Use ruins to make your units unchargeable if you are not playing ITC. The new FAQ nerfs the fight again Strat because the unit has to be in combat to use it and of course the Loota bomb is dead. Loota bomb not being a thing makes Tesla Blades with Shield Vanes a lot better against Orks. Sautekh is mandatory for beating Orks, so many big units to target with the Stratagem and obliterate with Tesla. I wouldn't bother with melee if possible, we have no units that are better in melee than Ork boyz, as a last ditch attempt to do things to Ork Boyz with captives maybe, but you would be better off not having units taken captive in the first place IE running shooting units with FLY.

*Edit

 JNAProductions wrote:
150 attacks with 6+ exploding hitting on a 3+, gets an average of 100+(25*2/3)=117, just under, hits.

Against T3-4, that's 78 wounds.
Against T5, that's a little over 58 wounds.
Against T6-9, that's 39 wounds.

So it won't QUITE take out 20 T5 3+ wounds on average, assuming the Boss Nob only has a Choppa, but it'll get damn close.

Of course, there's that 58% chance of making a charge to deal with. (Also, once you reroll something, no more rerolling it-so a CP reroll should never be used with 'Ere We Go.)

Yeah math says 19.44 , but either way it's high enough that we need contingency plans or better strategies.


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How about just feeding them 10 Tesla immortals and use the scarab screens to move up and block the second wave?

Those immortals kill 5-6 boys in overwatch.

10 other immortals with a Lord kill another 20 and rest of army mops up the rest. Or moral takes them. Just pay attention not to meet the criterion to let him replenish the unit.

Heck 4/10 times he's not getting his charge off, leaving them as sitting dicks for said immortals.

When that's done and over with her is hopefully eating through the second of 9 scarab units and you have just about time to compose yourself for the rest.

 vict0988 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
If they are goff they aren't reliable chargers with 58% odds of making it. So if they are always making it instist him to use your dice rather than loaded dices

Everyone plays Blood Axes in my experience. There's still a very real chance of them failing even with Blood Axes and that will often lose them the game. Orks can only use the Unstoppable Green Tide Stratagem if they are at half their starting strength. Killing 10 models one turn and 20 the next turn works. Killing 19-29 will cost the Orks 5 CP to pass their LD and get back to full strength, killing 14-19 will cost 3 CP because they will survive the LD on their own and be able to UGT. If you stop at 10 you know your opponent cannot UGP, if you get to 19 but you know you won't kill the remaining 11 you might as well stop immediately. Ork Stratagems are very potent, you have to play very cagey to survive the initial onslaught but if you do then you should have it in the bag. Use ruins to make your units unchargeable if you are not playing ITC. The new FAQ nerfs the fight again Strat because the unit has to be in combat to use it and of course the Loota bomb is dead. Loota bomb not being a thing makes Tesla Blades with Shield Vanes a lot better against Orks. Sautekh is mandatory for beating Orks, so many big units to target with the Stratagem and obliterate with Tesla. I wouldn't bother with melee if possible, we have no units that are better in melee than Ork boyz, as a last ditch attempt to do things to Ork Boyz with captives maybe, but you would be better off not having units taken captive in the first place IE running shooting units with FLY.

Presumably you mean evil suns with their +1 to charge which gives them 78% chance and not blood axe with their count as cover outside 18"?-) One of the LEAST used clans I suspect...

And agreed on the UGT suggestions. I find rarely using that because either the unit flat out dies(orks are not tough) or opponent stops at right time. 18 orks isn't nearly as scary as 30.





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Casual tournament coming up in june. Yey. I prefer the casual tournaments because people bring in...well more casual lists ;-) Especially good as I don't have models yet for anything resembling competive necrons.

I'm aiming to bring nightbringer if I can paint it as cool as I imagine it will look(of course I'm not super painter so plan could fail horribly...). 1500 pts, no detachment limitation(ran into this in today's competive tournament. Blew me off the floor though it clearly actually reads in rules of tournaments...but that's how common max 3 det's is...), max 3 non-troop, non-dedicated transport dataslate. And since it's casual players are requested to self-censor worst competive lists. Oh and no super heavies.

So here's list. I'm at 1463. What on earth can I cram in? With orks I just throw in like mek gun but not much cheap stuff for necrons...And my model count isn't large...Would have liked lychguard for fun(love the models) but just couldn't figure way to fit them even semi sensibly.




Sooo. Not most competive but hey it\s casual. It's not supposed to be cut throat list. And I expect others to not be(while they won't be total sucky lists people do generally self policy rather well).

So suggestions on what to do with rest of points? Could get like tomb blade or 2 more immortals. Guess box of either won't kill my budget.

torblind wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Its not 120 attacks, its 150. Base is 2, +1 for melee weapon, +1 for warpath, +1 for greentide (more than 20 models). In addition, he plays them as goffs, which create additional attacks on unmodified hit rolls of 6s. And for 1CP they get S5 They would eat wraith for breakfast And on top of that they can fight again for 3CP at the end of the phase There is no screen in the entire game who would work against that. And thats just the boyz, he can pull off more shenanigans with other units.

Hm yeah that's quite a lot. According to stats that just about eats the last wound of 20 T5/3+ wounds too. On average. Not to mention fighting again. It would have to be some screening shenanigans then, and otherwise tactical very clever play.

What else does he have in his army?

Warboss, Nob with banner, weirdboy(s), painboy, 10-15 lootas, traktor cannon(s), smasha cannon(s), orks on bikes, shokkjump dragsta. Some of these.

Personally, it sounds like regarding orks, that your screen needs to be much further pushed out. Having 3 inches or so between your screen and the charger is a problem. ideally, 5-7 inches will keep your army safe. remember, you only need 3 scarabs really to deny a whole lot of real estate to deep strikers. They cost 39 points too. If they die, they die. Oh well. But they keep your shooters safe.

With MWBD, your tesla immortals (With Mephrit ideally in my mind considering the close quarters), should delete squads of boys with impunity

Well, BS 3+ with Tesla is 1 hit per shot.
With MWBD, that jumps to 1.5 hits per shot, which conveniently maths out to 1 wound per shot.

So, with Mephrit, you're looking at downing the full mob of 30 Boyz with just two squads of Teslamortals-the second doesn't even have to be full.

If you aren't Mephrit, that increases to 18 total Teslamortals with MWBD to kill.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, BS 3+ with Tesla is 1 hit per shot.
With MWBD, that jumps to 1.5 hits per shot, which conveniently maths out to 1 wound per shot.

So, with Mephrit, you're looking at downing the full mob of 30 Boyz with just two squads of Teslamortals-the second doesn't even have to be full.

If you aren't Mephrit, that increases to 18 total Teslamortals with MWBD to kill.

Problem is turn two he 60 more boyz incoming, he needs to start shooting at those too and he can only take three units of tesla immortals.

Why only three units?

Edit actually T5 Nihilakh elites with +1 to save would survive 150 attacks S5, fighting twice!

And that ferocious lone survivor even has +1 A to fight back with

Of course you would have to go first to play it.

Take fliers. Deploy them in front of your army. If he goes first he has to move and use Da jump before ever getting any shots so he can't counter them. He will not even be able to declare a charge with his boys and you will screen him back 9.1" from your deployment zone.

Easy.

Then in your turn murder his boys with tesla. Use the fliers to mortal wound strat his lootas if they are behind grots.

JNAProductions wrote:Why only three units?

Because we play with only three times the same datasheet.

torblind wrote:Edit actually T5 Nihilakh elites with +1 to save would survive 150 attacks S5, fighting twice!

And that ferocious lone survivor even has +1 A to fight back with

Of course you would have to go first to play it.

That's one problem. Another is he could da jump where my Wraith aren't.

Red Corsair wrote:Take fliers. Deploy them in front of your army. If he goes first he has to move and use Da jump before ever getting any shots so he can't counter them. He will not even be able to declare a charge with his boys and you will screen him back 9.1" from your deployment zone.

Easy.

Then in your turn murder his boys with tesla. Use the fliers to mortal wound strat his lootas if they are behind grots.

Good idea. I don't have any fliers, though. And his traktor cannons love to shoot at fliers.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Take fliers. Deploy them in front of your army. If he goes first he has to move and use Da jump before ever getting any shots so he can't counter them. He will not even be able to declare a charge with his boys and you will screen him back 9.1" from your deployment zone.

Easy.

Then in your turn murder his boys with tesla. Use the fliers to mortal wound strat his lootas if they are behind grots.

That is a nice idea. You would have to bring more then I guess, to cover more angles.

You could even have 20 flayed ones waiting in the tomb world. If he drops his boyz within 9" of the flyer (unable to charge), you drop the flayed ones in your turn, 6" away from them, move them up and charge. With +1S they would eat almost 30 on their own.

Also ork infantry don't really like vehicles. Tough cracks. Especially vs inf heavy orks dda could be used to screen as the main gun isn't big deal vs infantry

elook wrote:
What did your Immortals prioritise on? Shield Drones or the Fire Warriors?

The drone were not in range of the immortals all the game, but T2 the last two Doomscythe (one with 2PV ) and the Destroyers cleaned them (shooting them directly of forcing them to tank hits).

I killed 5 units of Fire warrior turn one

The immortals took objective and put some shots on Firewarriors when in range, but they didn't shoot a lot this game. But in other games it's usually their job. I try to stay at maximum range to avoid the triple shot.

My big problem versus Tau is the Riptides. Even without drones they're a tough nut to crack. Maybe a third DDA would work here.

You're going to have to shoot the boyz before they get in combat. Nothing we have can beat 30 boyz in a straight fight. If they can teleport in with Da Jump you might want to use a scarab screen or even a warrior screen to slow them down. They will die, but as long as your real damage dealers survive you can manage.

Bloodletters say "hi" in terms of beating them in straight fight.

Also 30 plague bearers have taken charge of 60 boyz and wartrike and lived to tell the tale. Grumble grumble.

tneva82 wrote:
Bloodletters say "hi" in terms of beating them in straight fight.

Also 30 plague bearers have taken charge of 60 boyz and wartrike and lived to tell the tale. Grumble grumble.

I was not aware that bloodletters is a necron unit
What the other factions can do is irrelevant. What matters is what we can or can't do. And we can't deal with a horde of CC specialists. Against CC fodder like hormagaunts? Fine. Against the likes of Genestealers and Orks? Only if you are lucky.

tneva82 wrote:
Battallion: nephrek

Overlord(warscythe, ignore morale warlord trait, veil of darkness)
cryptek(5++ inv vs ranged)

10+9 tesla immortal
5 tesla immortal(if you wonder why I have this odd number 2nd hand deal had 1 deathmark and 4 unbuilt immortals...I intend to buy 1 box just to fill that to 25 immortals and 5 deathmarks)
20xwarrior

2x4 scarab swarms
3xtomb blades(2 with shieldvanes and ignore cover, 1 with 5++)
doomsday ark
doom scythe
nightbringer
[/spoiler]

Sooo. Not most competive but hey it\s casual. It's not supposed to be cut throat list. And I expect others to not be(while they won't be total sucky lists people do generally self policy rather well).

So suggestions on what to do with rest of points? Could get like tomb blade or 2 more immortals. Guess box of either won't kill my budget.

Why Nephrek ?
With a Doomscythe i would go with Sautekh, or don't take a Doomscythe at all (D3 shot hitting on 4+ ... ugh). Nephrek can give you acces to deep strike, but it's only on infantry (the 20 warriors blob ?).

I personally love the Nightbringer (with Cosmic Fire), but i found that he works better if he has some protection like Wraith. Scarabs can work and you can put them out of sight but they don't last long, and Nighbringer without support will not last long either.

With sautek 1 unit really benefit from dynasty. Immortals, warriors etc don't. More units benefit from nephrek than sautek. And without flyer i have just dda for at. Even without super heavies that's not much. What if i run against say triple russ? Twin repulsor?

 p5freak wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:Why only three units?

Because we play with only three times the same datasheet

Even for troops? That's an odd rule. What other houserules are in place?

tneva82 wrote:
With sautek 1 unit really benefit from dynasty. Immortals, warriors etc don't. More units benefit from nephrek than sautek. And without flyer i have just dda for at. Even without super heavies that's not much. What if i run against say triple russ? Twin repulsor?

With sautekh you gain the Methodical Destruction but that's expensive.

With nephrek you don't have a lot of units you want to advance. You lose the proc of Tesla (unless MWBD), the warrior blob can't shoot after an advance, ...
Nephrek imho is good for things like Wraiths (auto advance and charge stratagem), or things you really want to Deepstrike (Destroyers, but warriors blob can work).

But with your list, you could also try Mephrit (if you Veil them).

For antitank, even with the Doomscythe you're light anyway. Both the DDA and the Doomscythe are random. Good luck then.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Bloodletters say "hi" in terms of beating them in straight fight.

Also 30 plague bearers have taken charge of 60 boyz and wartrike and lived to tell the tale. Grumble grumble.

I was not aware that bloodletters is a necron unit
What the other factions can do is irrelevant. What matters is what we can or can't do. And we can't deal with a horde of CC specialists. Against CC fodder like hormagaunts? Fine. Against the likes of Genestealers and Orks? Only if you are lucky.

You didn't specify necrons only and made orks sound some all conquering monster when they are actually very soft and dependant on getting 30 boyz into combat which is easier to say than do. Vs good player it's actually rather hard. Terrain can be used to hinder ork assault just by position. Park yourself into craters, woods or obstacles and watch ork player hate you. Those goffs will be needing 11" to charge you yippiyee. Vehicles can also be used to blunt ork assault efficiently. And of course shooting 11-12 of them and the unit is no longer much of a threat.

Eventhough I have 25mm base I rarely get even close to 30 to combat. It's simply too easy to make ork players life annoying. And goffs are even worse on that regard.

What do you do when tougher harder hitting unit comes along your way? One that's also faster...

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Shaelinith wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
With sautek 1 unit really benefit from dynasty. Immortals, warriors etc don't. More units benefit from nephrek than sautek. And without flyer i have just dda for at. Even without super heavies that's not much. What if i run against say triple russ? Twin repulsor?

With sautekh you gain the Methodical Destruction but that's expensive.

With nephrek you don't have a lot of units you want to advance. You lose the proc of Tesla (unless MWBD), the warrior blob can't shoot after an advance, ...
Nephrek imho is good for things like Wraiths (auto advance and charge stratagem), or things you really want to Deepstrike (Destroyers, but warriors blob can work).

But with your list, you could also try Mephrit (if you Veil them).

For antitank, even with the Doomscythe you're light anyway. Both the DDA and the Doomscythe are random. Good luck then.

Not many units in the edition of super tough deathstars or msu where that stratagem is helpful though.

And movement is pretty damn useful. a) objectives. I need to get around to score maelstrom cards AND I need to either score progressively objectives or ensure I can reach toward the end or I'm giving up on vp's. b) first turn if I can't move fast I can't neccessary even shoot with say immortals. 24" range + movement=not that much. Even orks will generally have troops on board over 30" from you so...29" just ain't cutting it if I don't want to waste T1 shooting complee

Oh and regarding nightbringer worry isn't going to be long range guns but more of deep striking nastyness. When boards have terrain to hide a knight nightbringer shouldn't be issue and scarabs should be able to have even easier time hiding.

tneva82 wrote:Also ork infantry don't really like vehicles. Tough cracks. Especially vs inf heavy orks dda could be used to screen as the main gun isn't big deal vs infantry

No. Not really. Traktor Cannons will deal 2D6 damage (discarding lowest dice) against them, which will be easy to ignore with QS. However, 90 successful melee attacks from the boyz will deal 30 wounds, and a DDA only has a 4+ sv.

JNAProductions wrote:
Even for troops? That's an odd rule. What other houserules are in place?

No, not for troops. I dont have more than 3x10 immortals, though. Im not sure i would want to bring 40 or 50 immortals.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Tournament coming up this weekend. Taking this list:

Imotekh
Lord

Triarch stalker with heavy gauss

3 x 10 Tesla Immortals

6 Wraiths
6 scarabs
7 scarabs

3 x doomsday ark

The list is 4/4 in practice games, though I've not faced anything I'd call top tier yet. The tournament rules nerf soup somewhat (only use relics, strats, and traits from primary detachment) so hopefully that will level the playing field a bit. I'll report back how I do.

Ended up going 2-3.

Game 1 was against Ad Mech + Salamanders. This was a list I'd expect to win against all day to be honest. It was using the Vigilus detachment for punchy robots. Nothing scary, comfortable win.
Game 2 was Blood Angels. Smoked his Leviathan turn 1, took out both his Helverins turn 2. One of them expldoed, damaging his smash captain and 3 librarians. It wasn't his day.
Game 3 was Drukhari soup. It was the list. 6 Talos, 3 ravagers, 2 jet fighters, Eldar psychic support (new FAQ wasn't in use). My dice went arctic, but even if they hadn't, I don't think I had a chance here.
Game 4 was Tau. Another terrifying top tier list. Riptide, 3 broadsides, 5 Piranha, Skyray, firewarriors and drones out the wazzo. managed to take out most of his drones and get the riptide to one wound on my opening turn. Got smoked after that.
Game 5 was Knights. Got siezed on, Landstrder Errant got all up in my grill. I killed it, but I wanted to ignore him and focus down the crusader. This was Visions of Victory and his cards were on fire. I had no bad objectives to give him.

Not bad for my first tournament. made some mistakes, but I think this list did OK. The Drukhari player I faced won the whole thing, while the Tau guy came 3rd so I don't feel too bad about getting spanked by them. facing these lists, you can really see that we lack the force multipliers to top lists have.

I played a 3200 game vs orks and won. Admittedly it was was against a player who made some very odd decisions (he did the green tide thing to me but then chose not to charge my immortals, also had a gargantuan squiggoth that didn't move at all until round 4).

One of the things I could afford to do at that points level was bring 20 Mephrit Deathmarks. They did a solid job softening up a unit that arrived via Da Jump and Green Tide.

One other thing I did in that game was bring two units of 6 Wraiths and make sure to have them engage something in combat before it could get close. If I can destroy it, great, but otherwise I've tied it up before it can get downfield and threaten my lines.

Hi, do you use C'tan Shard of The Deceiver in tournaments? Is it rather a fun model?
Do you generally use any C'tans? If yes, how to you play them?