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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




basically like thin their ranks or bring it down but something that rewards you for killing multiple wound high save infantry
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

What? No, that would harm Space Marines.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

This is a question for GW, but it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to fix Thin Their Ranks to account for them. It would look something like:

Thin Their Ranks: If you select this objective; keep a tally of kill points as detailed below for each enemy model you destroys excluding Character models. A model that was destroyed and returned to the board can be destroyed again and add to your tally of kill points each time it is destroyed. At the end of the battle, divide your kill point tally by 10 and round down -- the result is the number of victory points you score. The number of points added to the tally is: models with 1-4 wounds add 1 per wound on the model; models with 5-9 wounds add 5; models with 10 or more wounds add 10.

Note that I excluded Character models to prevent double dipping with Assassinate.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




No thank you. I already have a secondary that gives up max points to my opponent just by virtue of killing my stuff. I really don't need another one. Unless if taking the secondary comes with some real sever handicaps to the person going for it.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






How about getting rid of all kill secondaries
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It is beyond doubt they deliberately did not put an elite multi-wound squad killing secondary into the game, because the secondaries overall are cribbed from ITC, with the notable and glaring exception of gangbusters. There is zero chance that even as careless a company as GW simply overlooked it.

So the question then becomes: why did they deliberately leave off one of the ITC secondaries while keeping all the rest? Answers vary depend on your tinfoil quotient, but I think it's hard to say it's a complete coincidence that most of the new model releases to go with 9th edition are elite multi-wound squads.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
It is beyond doubt they deliberately did not put an elite multi-wound squad killing secondary into the game, because the secondaries overall are cribbed from ITC, with the notable and glaring exception of gangbusters. There is zero chance that even as careless a company as GW simply overlooked it.

So the question then becomes: why did they deliberately leave off one of the ITC secondaries while keeping all the rest? Answers vary depend on your tinfoil quotient, but I think it's hard to say it's a complete coincidence that most of the new model releases to go with 9th edition are elite multi-wound squads.


Doesn't take a genius to undertstand why.

It would 100% be the most dumb secondary of the lot.

Abhor the witch right now is considered the dumbest, and manages to screw just a couple of factions and only if the opponent has no psykers.

A secondary that targets elite infantries would cripple a dozen or more of factions just for the fact that they play such faction. It would be a hugely dumb secondary and if they did really implement that, this board would still be raging about it.

Let's not delude ourselves. The only reason why many players want such secondary is because it hurts SM, and hurting SM is good in everyone's book.

It probably was there in the first iteration of the test document, but then it was cut out for good reasons. Actually the existence of dumb ones like Abhor and Assassination is probably due to them going under the radar because there was an elephant like that during the playtest.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 07:00:05


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Spoletta, your italian, ever heard of equal long pikes for everyone?

You either HAVE kill secondaries against ALL factions or you DON'T have them.

Having them only for a "few" skew type of lists which mostly cripple factions that are badly designed, is Neither fair nor balanced and stacks the deck.

Limitations upon kill secondaries would also be a really neat thing.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





Change thin the ranks to count wounds instead of models, quick and dirty fix but it would make it a lot fairer.

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

Doesn't having your wound count spread across more models help with playing the primary and therefore compensate for giving up the secondary?

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





IN theory.
in practice small arms fire, especially off one faction, has increased in lethality to a point that multiple wounds can be considered better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 08:17:52


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Not Online!!! wrote:
Spoletta, your italian, ever heard of equal long pikes for everyone?

You either HAVE kill secondaries against ALL factions or you DON'T have them.

Having them only for a "few" skew type of lists which mostly cripple factions that are badly designed, is Neither fair nor balanced and stacks the deck.

Limitations upon kill secondaries would also be a really neat thing.


That wouldn't fix it. You just change the list of those good at not bleeding secondaries.

Even with that secondary, Harlequins would still not bleed any for example.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Spoletta wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Spoletta, your italian, ever heard of equal long pikes for everyone?

You either HAVE kill secondaries against ALL factions or you DON'T have them.

Having them only for a "few" skew type of lists which mostly cripple factions that are badly designed, is Neither fair nor balanced and stacks the deck.

Limitations upon kill secondaries would also be a really neat thing.


That wouldn't fix it. You just change the list of those good at not bleeding secondaries.

Even with that secondary, Harlequins would still not bleed any for example.


Yeah , harlequins would still be an issue, but it would still be a better basis to start balance from then what we have now.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

yukishiro1 wrote:
So the question then becomes: why did they deliberately leave off one of the ITC secondaries while keeping all the rest? Answers vary depend on your tinfoil quotient, but I think it's hard to say it's a complete coincidence that most of the new model releases to go with 9th edition are elite multi-wound squads.


So they made the rules to sell more models? Specifically a part of the rules that encourages you to field less models? Doesn't make sense.

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Not Online!!! wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Spoletta, your italian, ever heard of equal long pikes for everyone?

You either HAVE kill secondaries against ALL factions or you DON'T have them.

Having them only for a "few" skew type of lists which mostly cripple factions that are badly designed, is Neither fair nor balanced and stacks the deck.

Limitations upon kill secondaries would also be a really neat thing.


That wouldn't fix it. You just change the list of those good at not bleeding secondaries.

Even with that secondary, Harlequins would still not bleed any for example.


Yeah , harlequins would still be an issue, but it would still be a better basis to start balance from then what we have now.


No, you wouldn't.


Right now you have a situation with 2 factions screwed, and half a dozen with an handicap.
In that way you would have ~15 factions screwed, half a dozen with an handicap and around a dozen lucky ones. Seems much worse to me.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Then you don't understand the concept,
Basically , curb multiple choices of kill secondaries, implement a kill secondary against all armies, this would still be a better system then what we have now, where certain armies just get to pass, whilest other have hard counters via kill secondaries.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in nl
Elite Tyranid Warrior




I'd be for removing all kill secondaries. I never liked the effect those had on itc either, leading to skew lists/limiting of viable units.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Spoletta wrote:



Right now you have a situation with 2 factions screwed, and half a dozen with an handicap.
In that way you would have ~15 factions screwed, half a dozen with an handicap and around a dozen lucky ones. Seems much worse to me.


It's not IF those 15ish factions would remain top tiers. All that matters is overall balance, not mirrored rules for each kind of models. I mean hordes, psykers and vehicles are all very capable regardless of the secondaries that might harm them, if they're not it's because of codexes creep for example meltas against vehicles. I ALWAYS bring tons of vehicles for my orks even if I auto concede 15 points for Bring It Down, same with sisters which I don't own but I played a lot proxying them. And both TS and GK aren't losing hard because of Abhor the Witch.

Now if those elite oriented factions get somehow hurt by a secondary that allows the opponent to easily score 10-15 VPs while remaining fairly competitive overall I honestly don't see a problem at all.

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






The purpose of a kill secondary is to counter a skew list, right? You should only be able to score 15 points on a kill secondary easily if your opponent has taken one particular unit type and composed his ENTIRE army of just that type of unit.

The ones that aren't working are the ones where it's pretty damn easy to max them even against a basic TAC list of several factions. Space Marines have piles of bikes, vehicles, dreadnoughts, etc that are not just MEQ infantry. There ought to be some objective you can easily max to 15 if your opponent's list is just 2000 points of MEQ infantry and supporting characters.

Playing Guard does not force you to have 2000 points of Leman Russ tanks. Playing Orks does not require 250 boyz.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




This would severely curtail all Custodes players, which is unfair.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This would severely curtail all Custodes players, which is unfair.


Again: Does the existence of a secondary that gets maxed if you kill 150 models severely curtail all Ork players? IIRC Custodes players have a choice that includes other options besides "I have placed all 2000 points of my army into JUST INFANTRY keyword models". Custodes have Dreadnoughts, Custodes have bikers, Custodes have tanks. Even leaving out FW.

People keep comparing this to Abhor, but the problem with Abhor is unique. First, because it and it alone STACKS with other kill secondaries, since it is incorrectly in "Warpcraft" instead of the same category as Assassinate, meaning you can combo it and make ANY psyker character worth 8 points, and second because it offers a massive five points for a psyker character model and 3 for any psyker unit you kill.

Nobody (at least, nobody reasonable) is asking for an elite-killing equivalent of Abhor. they're asking for an elite-killing equivalent of Thin Their Ranks, which is still not by any means guaranteed even if you run up against a green tide ork list. If you don't get rid of all one hundred fifty models, you're not maxing that one, you better get to work.

...Also, Custodes are what, 45ppm at their cheapest? If this secondary is designed around 20ppm MEQ as a baseline as it should be, you probably couldn't max it even against a pure custodes army as they have 1/2 to 1/3 of a general MEQ list's bodycount. And if they could, it'd be like "if you get tabled, your opponent gets 15pts for tabling you."

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Blackie wrote:
Spoletta wrote:



Right now you have a situation with 2 factions screwed, and half a dozen with an handicap.
In that way you would have ~15 factions screwed, half a dozen with an handicap and around a dozen lucky ones. Seems much worse to me.


It's not IF those 15ish factions would remain top tiers. All that matters is overall balance, not mirrored rules for each kind of models. I mean hordes, psykers and vehicles are all very capable regardless of the secondaries that might harm them, if they're not it's because of codexes creep for example meltas against vehicles. I ALWAYS bring tons of vehicles for my orks even if I auto concede 15 points for Bring It Down, same with sisters which I don't own but I played a lot proxying them. And both TS and GK aren't losing hard because of Abhor the Witch.

Now if those elite oriented factions get somehow hurt by a secondary that allows the opponent to easily score 10-15 VPs while remaining fairly competitive overall I honestly don't see a problem at all.


Look, I can quote myself.
Spoletta wrote:


Let's not delude ourselves. The only reason why many players want such secondary is because it hurts SM, and hurting SM is good in everyone's book.



If SM weren't competitive, no one would care at all about this topic.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





No, you wouldn't.


Right now you have a situation with 2 factions screwed, and half a dozen with an handicap.
In that way you would have ~15 factions screwed, half a dozen with an handicap and around a dozen lucky ones. Seems much worse to me.


But what if ... and hear me out - this is gonna sound CARAAAAZZZZZY! BUT .... what if we made them where NO ONE WAS AUTO-SCREWED!?

You think the existence of a secondary that targets elite infantry is bad because it targets the essential make up of a faction and all of its subfactions, but you're totes fine with the other factions that are targeted in this way? That's cool because it's not marines and not a majority? You're starting to sound like Karol's opposite.

The fact is, not a single one of the kill secondaries really does what it's suppose to do, and all of the non-kill secondaries are probably not pointed correctly. Most of them are harder to do, actually carry an opportunity cost and deliver fewer points. To quote a great man "That does not make sense."

People keep comparing this to Abhor, but the problem with Abhor is unique. First, because it and it alone STACKS with other kill secondaries, since it is incorrectly in "Warpcraft" instead of the same category as Assassinate, meaning you can combo it and make ANY psyker character worth 8 points, and second because it offers a massive five points for a psyker character model and 3 for any psyker unit you kill.


There is another problem with it. Yeah, you can play guard and not bring a ton of vehicles (I don't know why you would honestly but the fact remains that you CAN), same for Orks. A lot of the armies that are targeted by some of the sillier kill types can work around them to some extent. Usually makes for a worse army, but they CAN do it. There is no possible way for Tsons or Grey Knights to NOT have Psyker Characters. They don't even have to skew. Tsons filled out all 3 HQs? Great. 24 points for me! Just dumb.

I said in the other thread that I was fine with having kill secondaries as long as they were balanced better than the abortion of an attempt we currently have, but really, the more we talk about it, the more of a PITA it seems to become. We should probably just dump the kill secondaries entirely and look to rework the non-kill ones.

EDIT:

I mentioned a while back that my group had played enough 9th (several hundred games across 20 people playing 3-4 people in socially distanced garages) that we started to find land mines that others would eventually stumble across. I deliberately avoided specifying them because I wanted to see if was just us or a issue with the game. Since then pretty much everything we identified has turned out to be somewhat of an issue from the secondaries to the first turn advantage, to the fact that smaller tables are causing additional problems. I think 9th has a lot of potential, but it needsn some tweaks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 14:27:03


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






First question here? And I feel the most important?

What is the definition of Elite Infantry?

   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




Let's not delude ourselves. The only reason why many players want such secondary is because it hurts SM, and hurting SM is good in everyone's book.


It's not about "hurting" space marines. It's about wanting to be able to participate equally in the game. Crazy right? Imagine playing an army that will pretty much come into every single game giving up at least 15-24 points because the very nature of the army has been targeted by the kill secondaries (which, weirdly, don't even properly target the real "problem" units in 9th), and the vast majority of the time (because let's face it, in most cases marines will be 50+% of available opponents), you're playing against an army that literally gives up no secondaries at all. None.

If you don't see a problem with that IDK what to tell you, but it's not good for the game. Especially not when the non-kill secondaries aren't very good and on top of everything else, the army that doesn't give up secondaries, also happens to be on of the best in the game, AND the most numerous.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
First question here? And I feel the most important?

What is the definition of Elite Infantry?

Multiwound models with a 4+ or better save, in my book.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Spoletta wrote:


If SM weren't competitive, no one would care at all about this topic.


In your version of the universe, if SM were underpowered, DG, Harlequins or Custodes would not be the baseline army to beat?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





the_scotsman wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


If SM weren't competitive, no one would care at all about this topic.


In your version of the universe, if SM were underpowered, DG, Harlequins or Custodes would not be the baseline army to beat?


it's as if elite infantry is a bit off an issue due to beeing the only type of unit not beeing penalised via kill secondaries.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
First question here? And I feel the most important?

What is the definition of Elite Infantry?

Multiwound models with a 4+ or better save, in my book.


For thought (and not a gotcha type thing!), Necron Immortals and Deathmarks don’t meet that (T5, 1W, 3+ Sv), but Triarch Praetorians and Lychguard would (T5, 2W, 3+Sv)

All four are, for my money, a greater threat than Bog Standard Marines, due to role and equipment load outs.

   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
First question here? And I feel the most important?

What is the definition of Elite Infantry?

Multiwound models with a 4+ or better save, in my book.

I believe that ITC's Gangbusters secondary was for any unit that contained multiple 3+ wound models, but I could definitely see that definition being changed to affect 2W models with 4+ or better armour saves. A bit too easy to leave the terminators, gravis, or Possessed at home.

Edit: Good point on Immortals and Death Marks Doc. Maybe it should be based on PPM?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 15:07:23


 
   
 
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