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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





I guess this is more for research purposes than anything since I am somewhat new to 9th edition

Of course, any army can achieve a formidable list but what would we say are the most OP armies in 9th edition?

Conversely, which armies do you think are the weakest hitters?

Top 3 and bottom 3?

I have rejoined the hobby collecting Eldar and from what I have read I think i'll be somewhere nearer the bottom of the food chain

Be interested to hear some opinions
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Top 3 are probably armies like Space Marines, Harlequins, and Chaos Daemons.

Space Marines have a bazillion special rules.
Harlequins and Daemons are both fast and have invulnerable saves, making them able to snatch objectives and maneuver around the board while enduring the absolute HURRICANE of high-AP fire that comes out of - you guessed it - space marines.

Bottom 3 are probably the "armies but not really" like Inquisition, Renegades and Heretics (does Legended armies count?), Sisters of Silence.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Space Marines have a bazillion special rules.
Harlequins and Daemons are both fast and have invulnerable saves, making them able to snatch objectives and maneuver around the board while enduring the absolute HURRICANE of high-AP fire that comes out of - you guessed it - space marines.

Yeah, some things never change. SM have always been the front runners. Interesting points about the ++saves though. I'm looking forward to more objective based games so that's certainly worth bearing in mind.
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




With the right list and a really good player, Eldar can still compete, but I'd agree with Unit1126PLL's list. Marines just have a tool for every situation, and special rules that often let them ignore the game rules that might otherwise hurt them. They were practically designed around 9th. Harlequins, on the other hand, happen to be really good at killing Marines, so you do the math.

Unit is also not necessarily wrong about their bottom 3 choices, but they aren't truly "armies" either. For actual armies, my bottom 3 would be (in no particular order):

- GSC
- Tau
- Tsons or possibly Astra Militarum

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Tycho wrote:
With the right list and a really good player, Eldar can still compete

From what I can see, Psychic phase is the most important one for an Eldar player and choosing which spells to cast and on which units (the enemy's or your own) will ultimately make all the difference. With that said though, the reason I chose Eldar was because I wanted a more 'strategy required' army rather than just boys with bolters as I have played in the past - so it doesn't concern me either way.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Crafter91 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Space Marines have a bazillion special rules.
Harlequins and Daemons are both fast and have invulnerable saves, making them able to snatch objectives and maneuver around the board while enduring the absolute HURRICANE of high-AP fire that comes out of - you guessed it - space marines.

Yeah, some things never change. SM have always been the front runners. Interesting points about the ++saves though. I'm looking forward to more objective based games so that's certainly worth bearing in mind.

The mid-8th Power Armor Ghetto called, it wants it's hyperbole back.

Marines are trash-tier some of the time, they're just the poster boy for the franchise so they get too much attention to stay trash-tier for very long. And yes, Daemons do fairly well into Marines since they don't give a flip about AP as an army. It's one of the things they share with Harlequins and some of the better DE lists.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Sometimes it's fun to be the melon-fether trying to ice skate up that hill (he says in full Drukhari Wych Cult masochism!)
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

The Newman wrote:
 Crafter91 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Space Marines have a bazillion special rules.
Harlequins and Daemons are both fast and have invulnerable saves, making them able to snatch objectives and maneuver around the board while enduring the absolute HURRICANE of high-AP fire that comes out of - you guessed it - space marines.

Yeah, some things never change. SM have always been the front runners. Interesting points about the ++saves though. I'm looking forward to more objective based games so that's certainly worth bearing in mind.

The mid-8th Power Armor Ghetto called, it wants it's hyperbole back.

Marines are trash-tier some of the time, they're just the poster boy for the franchise so they get too much attention to stay trash-tier for very long. And yes, Daemons do fairly well into Marines since they don't give a flip about AP as an army. It's one of the things they share with Harlequins and some of the better DE lists.
Was there ever a time where Marines didn't have some top placing lists?

Because for every other faction, if they get just one list in the top spots, they're considered competitive.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Top 3 is a bit complicated in my opinion. We also have 2 other incredibly good Codexes : Sisters of Battle and Necrons.

I really do think SoB and Necrons are on-par with Space Marines (for now, we'll see how Dark Angels shake things up soon). They both are having great results and Necrons' Codex seems to allow different builds : silver-tide, canoptek heavy, with and without C'tans, with and without the Silent King, etc. Maybe there are still hidden gems / builds inside this Codex. These 2 Codexes suffer from the fact they didn't have a lot of players to begin with but I really think they are also part of the best armies.

The two Codexes which are currently, without a doubt the, top dogs, are Harlequins and Chaos Daemons (except Khorne, unfortunately).

Bottom 3, I don't know. The Imperial Guard seems to struggle super hard but maybe the recent FAQ will shake up things quite a bit. I don't count armies which are not "real" armies such as Inquisition, Sisters of Silence and R&H (the last one being Legend).

I'm only sure that one army is objectively trash : T'au. Their Codex is simply not designed at all with 9th in mind and it really, really shows on the table.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/13 17:19:04


 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Sacratomato

 Crafter91 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Space Marines have a bazillion special rules.
Harlequins and Daemons are both fast and have invulnerable saves, making them able to snatch objectives and maneuver around the board while enduring the absolute HURRICANE of high-AP fire that comes out of - you guessed it - space marines.

Yeah, some things never change. SM have always been the front runners. Interesting points about the ++saves though. I'm looking forward to more objective based games so that's certainly worth bearing in mind.


Huh? Space Marines have always been front runners? Have you been playing long? If you have then you would know Space Marines became "average in 7th Edition, good at the beginning of 8th and powerful from the end of 8th to 9th edition. "Some things never change".......lol! (I guess you're right since players retroactively place OPness on all armies as soon as they read someone else's post claiming something is too powerful).

70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
Was there ever a time where Marines didn't have some top placing lists?
Top placed marine list at the 2014 Nova tournament was a mixed wolf/marine list taking 13th.
Top places were eldar, eldar, chaos, crons(miscosted), tau(triptides), eldar, eldar, eldar, eldar, chaos, chaos, and chaos.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






The top 3 armies right now. Without Question. Are Harlequins/Custodians/Daemons (with lots of different choas soup armies too).

3 worst armies?

Tau/Imperial knights/Tyranids

It's almost like...the armies that got strong PA are out performing new codex armies...well...because they are. Custodies and quinns got more out of PA than space marines got out of the 8th eddition codex + PA.

Quinns have a combo to make every vehical in their army have a -1 to wound from an always on aura with 9" radius...which essentially gives them T8 4++ with -1 to hit for all their vehicals...plus...also...a 6+ FNP.

Quinns...more durable than imperial knights...cause that makes sense.

Custodes...same crap. Getting way too much out of psychic awakening. Literally just free rules which take already really powerful models and give them too much power. The army is super durable in an edition where standing on points and not dying wins you games...

Daemons - same crap. On top of undercosted greater daemons...they also get super duper bonus rules "exalted" for the cost of CP...

OF all this crap will change when these armies have to pay point for all these free rules like Necrons and space marines do.

Nids/Gaurd - same problem. AV BS is low. Lack of invunes. No strong elite units. Winning is a struggle.

Tau - eddition is melee - they don't have any melee - objectives scored at start of turn. They can not win objective game and they struggle vs all the strong armies too - much like a space marine army - tau rely on high AP to make their shots count. When the AP of their weapons is ignored - it gives a Hugh advantage to the Opposing player. Invune saves are a really bad mechanic btw!

Knights...Not actually weak but objectives hurt them. Only way they win is by tabling opponent...which can happen BUT this doesn't yeild a high win rate.

Middle tier is space marines/ eldar/ CSM/Orks/ Necrons. These armies have what it takes to win games but they have much less busted rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/13 17:38:51


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






The Newman wrote:
 Crafter91 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Space Marines have a bazillion special rules.
Harlequins and Daemons are both fast and have invulnerable saves, making them able to snatch objectives and maneuver around the board while enduring the absolute HURRICANE of high-AP fire that comes out of - you guessed it - space marines.

Yeah, some things never change. SM have always been the front runners. Interesting points about the ++saves though. I'm looking forward to more objective based games so that's certainly worth bearing in mind.

The mid-8th Power Armor Ghetto called, it wants it's hyperbole back.

Marines are trash-tier some of the time, they're just the poster boy for the franchise so they get too much attention to stay trash-tier for very long.


"Trash-tier" and an accusation of hyperbole at the same time. Impressive.

SM have never been "trash-tier". The lowest they go is somewhere in the middle. They have too many options to drop very far.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




From what I can see, Psychic phase is the most important one for an Eldar player and choosing which spells to cast and on which units (the enemy's or your own) will ultimately make all the difference. With that said though, the reason I chose Eldar was because I wanted a more 'strategy required' army rather than just boys with bolters as I have played in the past - so it doesn't concern me either way.


I think that's a good assessment. I saw a game recently where Eldar went up against the new Necron codex. The Necrons had the SIlebt King and some other tough units. I expected a total clubbing of the Eldar, but between solid positioning, good list building, and some strong maneuvering, the Eldar player made a good game of it. He lost, but it all essentially came down to a bad psychic phase and a few choice dice rolls that failed in one particular shooting phase. Otherwise, he was -that close- to winning.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Insectum7 wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 Crafter91 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Space Marines have a bazillion special rules.
Harlequins and Daemons are both fast and have invulnerable saves, making them able to snatch objectives and maneuver around the board while enduring the absolute HURRICANE of high-AP fire that comes out of - you guessed it - space marines.

Yeah, some things never change. SM have always been the front runners. Interesting points about the ++saves though. I'm looking forward to more objective based games so that's certainly worth bearing in mind.

The mid-8th Power Armor Ghetto called, it wants it's hyperbole back.

Marines are trash-tier some of the time, they're just the poster boy for the franchise so they get too much attention to stay trash-tier for very long.


"Trash-tier" and an accusation of hyperbole at the same time. Impressive.

SM have never been "trash-tier". The lowest they go is somewhere in the middle. They have too many options to drop very far.
Nah this is assuming there was every an established middle tier. Technically it doesn't matter. If you can't win events consistently or have any control of your matches - you are trash tier. FYI - marines (vanila marines) have been here...more often than than they have been OP. The last time they were decent was 4th edition salamanders. It took till 7.5 eddition to make an actual competitive choice after that. 8.0 they were actually vying for worst army in the game. 8.5 made them top teir no doubt...but time wise it was actually quite breif. As you can see now - Quins Custodes and daemons once they got the same editions updates are at least as good as 8.5 eddition marines were.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/13 17:53:35


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




We also have 2 other incredibly good Codexes : Sisters of Battle and Necrons.


Honestly, I don't think the Necron codex really is all that good. It has the Silent King, which helps, but it is still easily out-performed by both the new Marine dex, as well as some of the older codexes that got good PA updates. When it's all said and done, I'm betting "9thCrons" ends up as a middile-tier book. There is too much nuance, and too many duplicated abilities with not quite enough variance in actual capability imo.

It's still WAY better than the previous book, but I would like to set the bar higher than that ...

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman





 Xenomancers wrote:
The top 3 armies right now. Without Question. Are Harlequins/Custodians/Daemons (with lots of different choas soup armies too).

3 worst armies?

Tau/Imperial knights/Tyranids


I agree with your top 3, although I do think it matters a bit on how we determine the "top" armies. For winning tournaments, your list is probably correct; Harlequins, Daemons, and Custodes do have the highest win rates that I know of. However, in terms of actually playing the 9th edition game, I think Space Marines and Custodes are your best choices. Daemons, and especially Harlequins, while powerful, seem much more like anti-meta choices, and may lose some of their higher placings if we see Space Marines and Custodes brought down or replaced with different armies as the codexes are released.

On the bottom 3, once again, I basically agree with you, with the exception of Tyranids. T'au and Knights are certainly at the bottom because of their inability to function with the way that the 9th edition game plays. Tyranids, however, are very good at playing the objective game, and are thus kind of opposite the T'au: T'au are pretty solid at killing, but can't play objectives and lose, while Tyranids are mediocre at killing their opponents, but can easily score some key secondary objectives and are more likely to win the games because of it. That being said, I would probably list the bottom three, in no particular order, as:

1. T'au
2. Imperial Knights/Chaos Knights
3. Thousand Sons: very weak against secondary objectives and not durable enough for their points in the current AP-X meta to reliably hold objectives)
-or-
Imperial Guard: Same reason T'au are on this list. Decent killing power, but very much struggle to hold objectives and score.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

So, after sifting through a bunch of hyperbole, the top & bottom 3 contenders are:

TOP
*Space Marines x2
*Harlequins x3
*Daemons (though not Khorne according to one vote) x3
*Custodes

BOTTOM
*Inquisition (is this even a legit army?) x1
*Renegades & Heretics x1
*Sisters of Silence x1
*Genestealer Cult x1
*Tau x3
*Thousand Sons x1
*Imperial Guard (Astra Militarium) x1
*Knights (Imperial) x1
*Tyranids x1
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Inquisition isn't a real army list. R&H, Krieg, and Corsairs should be disqualified from consideration given how much of their stuff got squatted or Legendsed in 9th.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in us
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman





Yeah I really don't see any reason to put Inquisition, R&H, or Sisters of Silence on the list, since none of those to my knowledge have rules as stand-alone armies anymore.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Yeah I really don't see any reason to put Inquisition, R&H, or Sisters of Silence on the list, since none of those to my knowledge have rules as stand-alone armies anymore.

Technically SoS still have current rules for a stand alone army and you could build a 2k list of only SoS models.

But yeah even as someone with a number of squads of SoS I wouldn't consider them as they currently stand as a viable faction.

For Top 3 Casual Play
Marines
Custodes
SoB

For Top 3 Competative Play
Marines
Demons
Harliquines

Bottom 3 both
Tau
Imperial Knights (Renegade Knights have the bonus of summoning so a marginally better but not significant to this discussion)
Probably GSC (though I'm not sure if this is because they don't work or not enough people to find a new meta list)

I'm talking about pure 2k lists from 1 codex not Knights and admech or eldar and Harlequines etc soup lists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/13 20:12:16


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 Xenomancers wrote:
8.0 [Space Marines] were actually vying for worst army in the game.
No. Just no.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker



Canada

Top 3:

Harlequins
Daemons
Space Marines (some more than others)

Bottom 3 (of the major armies)

TSons
GSC
Tau

My two cents.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

From what I've observed from various tournament results, I would say:

Top 3:
Harlequins (particularly Soaring Spite)
Space Marines (particularly White Scars)
Sisters of Battle (particularly Bloody Rose)

honorable mention to Chaos Daemons

Bottom 3 in no particular order:
T'au Empire
Craftworld Aeldari
Grey Knights

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 5 | Current main painting project: Indomitus Marines, as Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
8.0 [Space Marines] were actually vying for worst army in the game.
No. Just no.

By what metric do say...no...just no?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




Insectum7 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
8.0 [Space Marines] were actually vying for worst army in the game.
No. Just no.

By what metric do say...no...just no?


They STILL had some really oppressive builds in that 'dex that were winning them tournaments. Several builds. Worst army in the game can't do that.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
8.0 [Space Marines] were actually vying for worst army in the game.
No. Just no.

By what metric do say...no...just no?


Because even the most poorly constructed/played force can out score (& thus win) Imperial/Chaos Knights?
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 CommunistNapkin wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The top 3 armies right now. Without Question. Are Harlequins/Custodians/Daemons (with lots of different choas soup armies too).

3 worst armies?

Tau/Imperial knights/Tyranids


I agree with your top 3, although I do think it matters a bit on how we determine the "top" armies. For winning tournaments, your list is probably correct; Harlequins, Daemons, and Custodes do have the highest win rates that I know of. However, in terms of actually playing the 9th edition game, I think Space Marines and Custodes are your best choices. Daemons, and especially Harlequins, while powerful, seem much more like anti-meta choices, and may lose some of their higher placings if we see Space Marines and Custodes brought down or replaced with different armies as the codexes are released.

On the bottom 3, once again, I basically agree with you, with the exception of Tyranids. T'au and Knights are certainly at the bottom because of their inability to function with the way that the 9th edition game plays. Tyranids, however, are very good at playing the objective game, and are thus kind of opposite the T'au: T'au are pretty solid at killing, but can't play objectives and lose, while Tyranids are mediocre at killing their opponents, but can easily score some key secondary objectives and are more likely to win the games because of it. That being said, I would probably list the bottom three, in no particular order, as:

1. T'au
2. Imperial Knights/Chaos Knights
3. Thousand Sons: very weak against secondary objectives and not durable enough for their points in the current AP-X meta to reliably hold objectives)
-or-
Imperial Guard: Same reason T'au are on this list. Decent killing power, but very much struggle to hold objectives and score.

Humm. They do give away 15 points for free. I don't think TS are that bad though. The are certainly not top tier. When their terms and rubrics get bonus wounds - they are going to be just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
8.0 [Space Marines] were actually vying for worst army in the game.
No. Just no.

By what metric do say...no...just no?


Because even the most poorly constructed/played force can out score (& thus win) Imperial/Chaos Knights?

We were talking 8.0 marines...Who literally had a 40ish % WR across practically every marine codex as well. 9.0 marines are certainly a good army. Not doubting that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/13 21:18:30


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
8.0 [Space Marines] were actually vying for worst army in the game.
No. Just no.
By what metric do say...no...just no?
Are we talking before or after the nerf to things like Guilliman, stormraven, and razorback gunlines?

And wait, 8th edition space marines? Like Iron Hands space marines?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Xenomancers wrote:
 CommunistNapkin wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The top 3 armies right now. Without Question. Are Harlequins/Custodians/Daemons (with lots of different choas soup armies too).

3 worst armies?

Tau/Imperial knights/Tyranids


I agree with your top 3, although I do think it matters a bit on how we determine the "top" armies. For winning tournaments, your list is probably correct; Harlequins, Daemons, and Custodes do have the highest win rates that I know of. However, in terms of actually playing the 9th edition game, I think Space Marines and Custodes are your best choices. Daemons, and especially Harlequins, while powerful, seem much more like anti-meta choices, and may lose some of their higher placings if we see Space Marines and Custodes brought down or replaced with different armies as the codexes are released.

On the bottom 3, once again, I basically agree with you, with the exception of Tyranids. T'au and Knights are certainly at the bottom because of their inability to function with the way that the 9th edition game plays. Tyranids, however, are very good at playing the objective game, and are thus kind of opposite the T'au: T'au are pretty solid at killing, but can't play objectives and lose, while Tyranids are mediocre at killing their opponents, but can easily score some key secondary objectives and are more likely to win the games because of it. That being said, I would probably list the bottom three, in no particular order, as:

1. T'au
2. Imperial Knights/Chaos Knights
3. Thousand Sons: very weak against secondary objectives and not durable enough for their points in the current AP-X meta to reliably hold objectives)
-or-
Imperial Guard: Same reason T'au are on this list. Decent killing power, but very much struggle to hold objectives and score.

Humm. They do give away 15 points for free. I don't think TS are that bad though. The are certainly not top tier. When their terms and rubrics get bonus wounds - they are going to be just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
8.0 [Space Marines] were actually vying for worst army in the game.
No. Just no.

By what metric do say...no...just no?


Because even the most poorly constructed/played force can out score (& thus win) Imperial/Chaos Knights?

We were talking 8.0 marines...Who literally had a 40ish % WR across practically every marine codex as well. 9.0 marines are certainly a good army. Not doubting that.


And? That 40% win rate has to be more than a pure Knight force (no soup) ever averaged. (and it's certainly more than I've ever seen a Knight force achieve at the local shops) Those knights, 8e or 9e, are tough. And they can dole out the damage. But when you've only got 5 - 6 bodies on the board you can't really achieve the objectives. And if you lose any it gets harder.
So yeah, crappiest SM force generally > Knights.
   
 
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