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So got the new DG codex this morning (as with ‘crons and marines, the new book is absolutely stunning in terms of art and general look and feel) and I can confirm that the demon entries were removed and here is no more summoning mechanic (may still be in Crusade - didn’t look at those rules). While not as big a deal for my DG as I used it more for fun/fluff than anything, it IS kind of a bummer that I would have to bring those demons as a separate detachment now and possibly give up some of the stuff the new book grants.

But the implications of this REALLY potentially suck for my Tsons who have really solid synergies with their demons and where I’ve been able to steal some very competitive games against really strong lists by calling in various demons (Screamers are about as anti-Primaris as you can get in Tsons), and most of my Tsons collection is built around demonic synergies.

So - what are everyone else’s thoughts on this? One time thing? Permanent change across all books. If it is a permanent change across all books then Chaos just got less fun for a lot of people....

Daemonic Ritual as a rule appears in the Daemons codex, doesn't it? It was just printed (alongside basic daemons) in the Death Guard and the CSM codex as a handy remembrance tool, like "oh yea, you can do this!"

Since the rule is that CHAOS CHARACTERS can summon units that have the rule, only daemons would have the rule, so I would suspect it would appear in the Daemons codex and any CHAOS CHARACTER would be able to make use of the rule.

Edit: No units in the CSM codex have the Daemonic Ritual rule except for the 4 basic daemons printed.

It is, in the 8th Ed DG book, (as well as in Tsons and CSM I believe), specifically listed as a rule though. You only needed the “character” keyword but yeah, it was listed as a rule the characters had. It is not in the new book so, at least as far as I can tell, RAW, they can’t summon anymore.

It is listed as a rule but only the Codex: Daemons units had it. The characters did not have it. At least that is the case in the 8th edition Chaos Space Marines codex.

They can still summon, because they are still CHAOS CHARACTERs. The Daemonic Ritual rule is given to units that can be summoned, and gives information on how they can be summoned by CHAOS CHARACTERS.
It is *not* given to CHAOS CHARACTERS to give information on how to summon other units.

Ah just went over my demons book again. You’re right. At least for now

Rihgu wrote:
It is listed as a rule but only the Codex: Daemons units had it. The characters did not have it. At least that is the case in the 8th edition Chaos Space Marines codex.

They can still summon, because they are still CHAOS CHARACTERs. The Daemonic Ritual rule is given to units that can be summoned, and gives information on how they can be summoned by CHAOS CHARACTERS.
It is *not* given to CHAOS CHARACTERS to give information on how to summon other units.

Yeah, this. You can still summon, but you need the Daemons book.
At which point you're just better off taking a daemons patrol detachment and getting the bonuses. (pre-battle summoning, drop stuff in reserve if you like).

Well, summoning is a pretty broken mechanic anyway. In narrative play it gave you easily 250points of free units every turn - not a good idea if you want to keep friends, and in matched play - why not simply take a Daemon detachment and make use of their special rules, gain additional Command points (in 8th) and have a reliable force instead of forcing one of your characters to not move.
I hope they find some way to bring it back for Daemons when their Codex comes around, but the way this edition is written I wouldn't be surprised if summoning ends up as a stratagem that does nothing more than letting a unit deep strike close to one of your characters.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, summoning is a pretty broken mechanic anyway. In narrative play it gave you easily 250points of free units every turn - not a good idea if you want to keep friends, and in matched play - why not simply take a Daemon detachment and make use of their special rules, gain additional Command points (in 8th) and have a reliable force instead of forcing one of your characters to not move.
I hope they find some way to bring it back for Daemons when their Codex comes around, but the way this edition is written I wouldn't be surprised if summoning ends up as a stratagem that does nothing more than letting a unit deep strike close to one of your characters.

Eh you pay points for summoning.　real broken.

And yes most of the time det is better. 9th did improve summoning though as it's cp free. It also allows you to customize what you use. If you just come to game with　1 unit to summon you are doing summoning wrong

I've never used summoning, as it isn't really my Legion's thing, but it should be a viable option for Legions that should use it, like Word Bearers, and shouldn't require the purchase of another codex to do it. Daemons and some Legions just go together.

Honestly, good riddance.

I get the strength of being able to choose your reinforcements for a game, and I've done this a bunch of times with my World Eaters.

But GW just can't seem to find a way to get summoning right. 6-7E summoning was overpowered, 8E summoning was marginally useful at best when using Points and overpowered when using Power Levels. On top of that, people were often confused about how it worked and why units existed in the codexes that don't fit in any of the subfactions ("Why won't Battlescribe let my CSM take Daemons as Troops choices?" threads come to mind).

Much easier to drop the concept entirely and represent it with a separate detachment. Change up how Denizens of the Warp works and you've got the same broad effect.

 Cheex wrote:
Honestly, good riddance.

I get the strength of being able to choose your reinforcements for a game, and I've done this a bunch of times with my World Eaters.

But GW just can't seem to find a way to get summoning right. 6-7E summoning was overpowered, 8E summoning was marginally useful at best when using Points and overpowered when using Power Levels. On top of that, people were often confused about how it worked and why units existed in the codexes that don't fit in any of the subfactions ("Why won't Battlescribe let my CSM take Daemons as Troops choices?" threads come to mind).

Much easier to drop the concept entirely and represent it with a separate detachment. Change up how Denizens of the Warp works and you've got the same broad effect.

I feel like the 8th edition version is close to being decent in 9th. In 8th, you were potentially denying yourself CP by not using the summoning points to take an extra batallion or whatever. But in 9th, being able to deepstrike in units and treat your entire daemon model collection as a sideboard seems like it should be workable. If you just let chaos characters move on the turn that they summon, you'd be able to turn jump pack, bike, etc. characters into a decent delivery system for summoned units.

Alternatively, you could ditch the summoning roll itself and make summoning either an action or stratagem. Daemon units arriving from reserves may do so within 6" of the unit taking the action (or marked by the stratagem) provided they arrive more than 1" away from the enemy. So your summoners become a way to deliver reserves closer to the fray, but you'd still have to pay points for a detachment of daemons in a conventional fashion.

Well if it goes away then....

NOOOOOOO!!!... wait, I have never used it with my CSM. Why would I care now?