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Made in se
Been Around the Block




My girlfriend was lovely enough to buy these old-school AD&D miniatures for me for my birthday (I'm way too old to be getting toys, but she knows me well).

They're great miniatures from Otherworld Miniatures ... if you like old-school RPGs you'd do well to check them out.

Anyway, I don't really know how to put them together. The troll (the big green thing) and the Beholder in the background, I pinned together by drilling small holes, cutting up paperclips as pins and using super-glue. That resulted in a nice, strong finish. However some of these guys, particularly the wings on the Cockatrice and the tentacles on the Roper are going to be too fine to drill through.

Previous experience has taught me that super-glue just doesn't hold metal-to-metal very well (at least not this stuff) without being pinned and if I used 2-part epoxy I'd have to hold them together for hours. lol.

Is there some kind of modelling glue that someone here can recommend -- or some other method -- to put these fine bits together with a strong bond without pinning?

I've thrown in mighty Rolando - my 5th Ed. D&D character - as a size reference. He's a true 28mm scale.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 19:54:37


 
   
Made in nl
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot




netherlands

superglue, and pinning

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Made in se
Been Around the Block




 skeleton wrote:
superglue, and pinning

Okay thanks ... but please read the post before replying next time.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Seattle, WA USA

Super glue is really about the best option. You could try 5-minute epoxy (that's real old school), but that has the problem of the really long cure time, so keeping the parts in place could be tricky without being able to pin them as well.

Edit: and yes, I did read the OP. The short answer to the question "is there another glue/method?" is, sadly, "no, not really."

One thing I might suggest is making sure to give them a good scrub with some warm water and degreaser before trying to glue, as any mold release or dirt/grease/oils will certainly impact super glue's adhesion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 20:52:05


 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut






Honestly is the metal of old times that mutch different then white metal minis made in the last decade?

For all my metal and resin minis i have used one spesific superglue from locktite, and the parts has never come apart unless accidental fall damage.
Spoiler:


I get them from my local clas ohlson, so you should have no trouble getting a bottle yourself and try it. (assuming that swe flag on your profile means you live in scandenavia)

Other then that, i have read that our american friends has some good success with gorilla glue.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 20:52:35


darkswordminiatures.com
gamersgrass.com
Collects: Wild West Exodus, SW Armada/Legion. Adeptus Titanicus, Dust1947. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

Superglue, and pinning. Because you can pin and superglue all of those. It looks like the wing sockets are even deep enough to possibly stay without pinning, ditto the tentacles on the Roper(because they look light).
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




Hmmm. Well okay then, if they are my only options I guess I'll just have to try and work with it.

Thanks for the recommendations, I'd try and find some of that locktite super glue. The stuff I've got now from Biltema is crap, it just does not seem to stick very well to that metal. And not only that, a couple of times when it's dried it's left a weird white coat over all the nearby paint (when pinning finished models to a base, etc).

Thanks for your help everyone.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

Note that superglue also loses potency over time, so an older bottle that's been laying around opened even with the lid on won't have quite as strong a bond.
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




 Mr. Grey wrote:
Note that superglue also loses potency over time, so an older bottle that's been laying around opened even with the lid on won't have quite as strong a bond.

I think I've just got cheap crappy super glue tbh.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I've found that scoring both parts of the metal so the glue can sit in the recesses helps with the bond (if you didn't want to go full pin on the situation).

On a side-note that Beholder!!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 21:42:38


 
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




Squidworth wrote:
On a side-note that Beholder!!!

They're the best!

One of the best models in my collection for sure.
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

What I would do there is cut off the wings, but leave a portion of the gate still attached. File or shave that bit of gate down as best as possible into an insert able portion, then drill into the larger body section an appropriate hole. Glue and insert. You can also strengthen the metal joins by using a thin roll of milliput or green stuff, applying it around the joint then poking it flush against it so it covers the gap and a tiny portion of each side.

Edit, looks like those wings already fit into a hole in the body, so you should be ok. Glue them in then use the putty for added strength.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 22:43:49


Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






PieInTheSky wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
Note that superglue also loses potency over time, so an older bottle that's been laying around opened even with the lid on won't have quite as strong a bond.

I think I've just got cheap crappy super glue tbh.


Get Gorilla glue. 99% of people's perceived problems with metal models come from gak glue. Not a single one of those models needs pinning TBH.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
What I would do there is cut off the wings, but leave a portion of the gate still attached. File or shave that bit of gate down as best as possible into an insert able portion, then drill into the larger body section an appropriate hole. Glue and insert. You can also strengthen the metal joins by using a thin roll of milliput or green stuff, applying it around the joint then poking it flush against it so it covers the gap and a tiny portion of each side.

Edit, looks like those wings already fit into a hole in the body, so you should be ok. Glue them in then use the putty for added strength.
Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimtuff wrote:
PieInTheSky wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
Note that superglue also loses potency over time, so an older bottle that's been laying around opened even with the lid on won't have quite as strong a bond.

I think I've just got cheap crappy super glue tbh.


Get Gorilla glue. 99% of people's perceived problems with metal models come from gak glue. Not a single one of those models needs pinning TBH.

I have Gorilla Glue ... but it doesn't set! Or if it does, it takes overnight or something. Maybe I have the wrong type. I did try it once though and it didn't work. Which type do you recommend? Can you send a link? I am sure my glue is gak btw.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 22:50:35


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Oh Canada!

Nothing short of pinning is going to properly hold those kinds of wings to the cockatrice.

Backfilling with epoxy putty will help too. If the holes in the body line up favourably, I'd drill right through the middle of the two socket joints, bend some thin paperclip into a 'U' shape and fit that in there, glue + putty it in place. Drill sockets into the wings, mount them onto the wire. You might need to pick up a thinner drill bit for your pin vice, but even very small pieces can be successfully pinned with some patience and care.

   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Fire_Forever wrote:
Nothing short of pinning is going to properly hold those kinds of wings to the cockatrice.



Yes it will. That model is not very big at all and those wings are on the small side. Use some good glue and you won't need to pin. At all. I have hundreds of metal minis and very few have the rigmarole gone through on them that the internet thinks, because they think metal models will fall apart if you look at them funny.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Have you ever heard of an epoxy called JB weld? Mix the black goop and beige goop 1:1 and apply a small but generous amount to whatever is making contact. Takes a while to set so after you get the pieces in place I would hit it with superglue while holding the two pieces with your off-hand. After a minute the glue and viscosity of the epoxy should hold it in place on its own. After 3-6 hours, congratulations! You officially have chemically bonded those two pieces of metal. Some cleanup of excess epoxy and glue may be required.

This is how I put my old Avatar of Khaine together. I dropped that guy onto a laminate floor from 4' and he was fine.
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




Fire_Forever wrote:
Nothing short of pinning is going to properly hold those kinds of wings to the cockatrice.

Honestly I can't see even my thinnest bit going through those wings successfully. I'd only have shavings to spare on each side and I'm just not that accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Warptide wrote:
Have you ever heard of an epoxy called JB weld? Mix the black goop and beige goop 1:1 and apply a small but generous amount to whatever is making contact. Takes a while to set so after you get the pieces in place I would hit it with superglue while holding the two pieces with your off-hand. After a minute the glue and viscosity of the epoxy should hold it in place on its own. After 3-6 hours, congratulations! You officially have chemically bonded those two pieces of metal. Some cleanup of excess epoxy and glue may be required.

This is how I put my old Avatar of Khaine together. I dropped that guy onto a laminate floor from 4' and he was fine.

I'll look into that, thanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 02:39:10


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





For me there's a hierarchy of methods I use depending on how bad of a joint it is...

superglue
superglue with pin
superglue and greenstuff sandwich with pin
5 minute epoxy
5 minute epoxy with pin

As someone said earlier, superglue does have a shelf life, if it's more than a few months old it's probably not at its full strength for gluing metals any more.

Superglue doesn't fill gaps well, so if there's any gaps I'd say don't rely on superglue alone, and you may need a kicker just to get it to cure.

The superglue and greenstuff sandwich utilises the fact superglue is strong but doesn't fill gaps in combination with the fact greenstuff fills gaps really well. You use a small ball of greenstuff, superglue it to one side of the joint, put a bit of superglue on the other side of the joint, push them together and it will hold surprisingly quickly and strongly. You may need to test how large of a ball of greenstuff to use, as you don't want it smooshing itself out of the joint for you to clean up later, you only want just enough to fill the gaps in the joint.

With 5 minute epoxy, the trick I found is to spend 1 to 2 minutes mixing it to ensure it's well mixed (don't go by "feel", actually time it, countless times I've seen people have weak joints because they were sure it was mixed properly when it wasn't), then wait another 1-2 minutes for it to start to go tacky and then apply it and hold the joint for a few more minutes (or set up a jig to hold it if it's particularly large). If you try and put it together too early you'll just make a mess as you'll be holding it while it's not really curing. Once you've got the part together you can use a bit of heat to make it cure faster, but be aware when you heat it while it's curing it will initially soften due to the warmth making it less viscous.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Oh Canada!

 Grimtuff wrote:
Fire_Forever wrote:
Nothing short of pinning is going to properly hold those kinds of wings to the cockatrice.



Yes it will. That model is not very big at all and those wings are on the small side. Use some good glue and you won't need to pin. At all. I have hundreds of metal minis and very few have the rigmarole gone through on them that the internet thinks, because they think metal models will fall apart if you look at them funny.


Maybe if all you're doing with a model is putting it on a shelf, but the first time it gets tipped over, a super glue or epoxy join is going to snap. I also have hundreds of metal models (like probably more than half the folks on this forum do), and often had to re-glue joints before I started pinning everything properly.

Since the wings are just too tiny on this little guy, I'd go with epoxy glue + fill any gaps with epoxy putty and treat it as a display piece rather than something that can be played with. Very nice model by the way, looks like it'll be a fun one to paint!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 04:39:38


 
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
What I would do there is cut off the wings, but leave a portion of the gate still attached. File or shave that bit of gate down as best as possible into an insert able portion, then drill into the larger body section an appropriate hole. Glue and insert. You can also strengthen the metal joins by using a thin roll of milliput or green stuff, applying it around the joint then poking it flush against it so it covers the gap and a tiny portion of each side.

Edit, looks like those wings already fit into a hole in the body, so you should be ok. Glue them in then use the putty for added strength.


I rate this comment.
A very small and thin layer of greenstuff/ appropriate medium + glue + pin (where possible) is as good as you can get. Scorring/ marking surfaces also tends to help especialy if the metal is very fresh and smooth.

Somebody once sugested I use gel glue on my metal AOK. It just took to long to holdd so I decided to just use the above instead and it worked like a charm.

One thing I would say, there are "helping hands" products which can assist in gluing. Little arms with clips that you can lock in place. I think these are situational and quality dependant but can help in some fidly sitations.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Scoring with a hobby knife works and is much easier than pinning. Make hundreds of little cuts in both surfaces let the glue get in there. Every cut will form a hard glue tooth that will drastically increase surface area and hold so tightly that the metal will break before the bond. I have metal models that have moved through three continents over 25 years without failure or even a crack.

   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






As a way-back-in-the-day guy myself, I can tell you that you can glue anything together with 5 minute 2 part epoxy and ingenuity.

And by ingenuity I mean rubber bands, clothes pegs, LEGO bricks, swearing, repetition and various forms of tape.

That said, a good batch of superglue can do wonders, but sometimes the stuff is so inconsistent - one surface will join instantly and basically forever, while the next will take 3-4 tries before it begrudgingly holds.


   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




AllSeeingSkink wrote:
For me there's a hierarchy of methods I use depending on how bad of a joint it is...

superglue
superglue with pin
superglue and greenstuff sandwich with pin
5 minute epoxy
5 minute epoxy with pin

As someone said earlier, superglue does have a shelf life, if it's more than a few months old it's probably not at its full strength for gluing metals any more.

Superglue doesn't fill gaps well, so if there's any gaps I'd say don't rely on superglue alone, and you may need a kicker just to get it to cure.

The superglue and greenstuff sandwich utilises the fact superglue is strong but doesn't fill gaps in combination with the fact greenstuff fills gaps really well. You use a small ball of greenstuff, superglue it to one side of the joint, put a bit of superglue on the other side of the joint, push them together and it will hold surprisingly quickly and strongly. You may need to test how large of a ball of greenstuff to use, as you don't want it smooshing itself out of the joint for you to clean up later, you only want just enough to fill the gaps in the joint.

With 5 minute epoxy, the trick I found is to spend 1 to 2 minutes mixing it to ensure it's well mixed (don't go by "feel", actually time it, countless times I've seen people have weak joints because they were sure it was mixed properly when it wasn't), then wait another 1-2 minutes for it to start to go tacky and then apply it and hold the joint for a few more minutes (or set up a jig to hold it if it's particularly large). If you try and put it together too early you'll just make a mess as you'll be holding it while it's not really curing. Once you've got the part together you can use a bit of heat to make it cure faster, but be aware when you heat it while it's curing it will initially soften due to the warmth making it less viscous.

Thankyou for that very informative post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
....

Thanks also to everyone else for their posts. I read them all. Lots of great gluing information in this thread. Appreciated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 10:22:43


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 John Prins wrote:
As a way-back-in-the-day guy myself, I can tell you that you can glue anything together with 5 minute 2 part epoxy and ingenuity.

And by ingenuity I mean rubber bands, clothes pegs, LEGO bricks, swearing, repetition and various forms of tape.
I have one of those "helping hands" things with a magnifier and alligator clips on articulated arms used by electrical technicians that works well for holding models in place. Just need to put something soft on the alligator clips so they don't bite into the soft metal of the model.

That said, a good batch of superglue can do wonders, but sometimes the stuff is so inconsistent - one surface will join instantly and basically forever, while the next will take 3-4 tries before it begrudgingly holds.

It may have been mentioned elsewhere, but it's super important to clean the surfaces. I use some isopropyl alcohol and an old toothbrush to scrub it clean, but degreasers or wax and grease remover also work.

By instinct, I clean the joint immediately prior to gluing as oxide layers form on metals quickly, but realistically I have no idea if it matters for metal models, it's just a habit from working with metals and adhesives in jobs I've had in the past.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/26 10:57:47


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I'm seriously questioning what you guys and girls are doing with your mini's if you've got to use Araldite...

I'd be pinning if I wanted to sell models on as its a small benefit and a good sales pitch for extra bang for your buck but as much as all the above would/will work it seems kind of OTT?
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It may have been mentioned elsewhere, but it's super important to clean the surfaces. I use some isopropyl alcohol and an old toothbrush to scrub it clean, but degreasers or wax and grease remover also work.


I just recently put together some metal Tau stealth suits that have been stripped and painted multiple times, and I used automotive degreasers in the stripping process. Sometimes you just get bad surface finishes and/or bad surface matches that superglue doesn't like. That's more the fault of the casting company than anything else.

   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut






Squidworth wrote:
I'm seriously questioning what you guys and girls are doing with your mini's if you've got to use Araldite...


Moust likely bad quality superglue.
Glue is like everything else, it has quality. Old age allso affects the superglue in a negative way.

darkswordminiatures.com
gamersgrass.com
Collects: Wild West Exodus, SW Armada/Legion. Adeptus Titanicus, Dust1947. 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Squidworth wrote:
I'm seriously questioning what you guys and girls are doing with your mini's if you've got to use Araldite...


Building things like the old metal Zoanthropes, 3rd ed. Hive Tyrants, Zombie Dragons, etc.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Squidworth wrote:
I'm seriously questioning what you guys and girls are doing with your mini's if you've got to use Araldite...
Moust likely bad quality superglue.
Glue is like everything else, it has quality. Old age allso affects the superglue in a negative way.
Whilst I agree there's variance in the quality of superglue, even the best superglues I've used cure brittle whilst epoxy cures tough.

I've had superglued models that seemed fine for years, glued with brand new pots of loctite superglue, then they suddenly snapped in transport or when a model tipped over on the table. Whereas epoxy, yeah, sometimes it's hard to get on, but once it's on, it tends to stay together. Compared to superglue, where one of my main uses for superglue is joints that I want to be able to break apart later Things like my metal Orc boss's arm that was heavy and had poor contact, epoxy, or my Zoanthropes which have a tiny surface area supporting a big weight, epoxy.

I don't use epoxy for everything, but it has its place on awkward joints that I really don't want falling apart.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/27 11:39:10


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Oh Canada!

A lot of my Pile of Possibilities is really old metal, and man-oh-man, are the fits bad. Like laughably bad, in some cases. More like a 'suggested join location'. There's a reason they used to put 'more advanced modeling skills required to assemble this miniature' on a number of the old boxes or words to that effect!

As has been pointed out, super glue does not bond well when there's a mile-wide gap between pieces. That's a job for epoxy of some kind. Super glue bonds have limited torsion strength and will shear.
   
 
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