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If I have a unit (call them unit A) with a fight first style ability already in combat, and I charge another unit into combat (call them unit B), am I allowed to activate unit A before activating unit B?

An example of a fight first style ability is Quicksilver Swiftness.

Quicksilver Swiftness wrote:This unit always fights first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

No, it must fight first. You only alternate when the enemy has charged or has similar abilities.
Unless I've missed a faq

So to understand what you are saying, is that you can't fight first with your fight first ability units because you charged with another unit, who gets to fight first because they charged?

To help me understand, could you explain how this is backed up in the rules?

Thanks.

Fight first and having charged are effectively the same speed


If both players have units with those ability

The players turn it is selects one such unit then the player whose turn it isn't selects one before going back to the player whose turn it is and so forth.

If you have charged and have a fight first unit you will have to pick one and only one before your opponent has the chance to intercede via strat or activate a fights first unit.

JakeSiren wrote:
If I have a unit (call them unit A) with a fight first style ability already in combat, and I charge another unit into combat (call them unit B), am I allowed to activate unit A before activating unit B?

An example of a fight first style ability is Quicksilver Swiftness.

Quicksilver Swiftness wrote:This unit always fights first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

Yes, Unit A can activate before Unit B, or the other way around, whichever you prefer. (Your opponent is able to activate one of their units between your units A & B if they have a unit with a "fight first" ability.)

Units with a "fight first" ability fall into the same "pool" as charging units for when it can be selected to fight.
You select units to fight from the eligible pool (charge & fight first) one by one, alternating with your opponent if they have units in that pool and starting with the player whose turn it is, until the pool is exhausted before repeating the process with the second pool, "normal units" ( ie didn't charge, doesn't have fight first, doesn't have fight last), in this pool the player whose turn it is not goes first. The third and final pool is for units with a "fight last" ability. Again, alternating with your opponent, and like the "charge/fight first" pool, this time it starts with the player whose turn it is.

Where is this pool created? Page please

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Where is this pool created? Page please

The "pool" would be the units that charged or have some other "fight first" abilility. Quicksilver Quickness points out how to handle it if there are units on both sides that get to go first.

Note that he had "pool" in quotations, it's a shorthand for "the group of all the units that charged or attacked first", but is easier to sum up in 4 letters.

Its a conceptual pool to do with grouping timings that are the same. it makes it easier to keep in your head how things work in practice not a quotable pool. units fall into three timings categories/groups/pools

Pool A units with fights first or units that charge these units all activate at the same speed but must have activated before you can move to pool B

Pool B most other units these units all activate at the same speed but must have activated before moving to pool C

Pool C units that cannot be activated until all other units have activated (fights last) these in practice work the same way*

*Technically they don't in - the rare occasion these are in the same fight phase they can't be activated until all other units have activated (the abilities all the simultaneously deactivate) however once one is selected the ability reactivates as their is now another unit eligible to be activated then once the activation is resolved the ability deactivates again and it repeats so technically where as the other two are equal speed horizontal pools the third is a vertical striation of one deep pools - that in practice makes no difference to how you resolve things

Thanks for the replies everyone. That has cleared things up considerably.

Quicksilver has a specific rule stating the unit fights first
It only cares about enemy units that charged or have a similar ability. Not friendly units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Quicksilver has a specific rule stating the unit fights first
It only cares about enemy units that charged or have a similar ability. Not friendly units.

So? There could be other ways that other friendly units get a similar ability. In which case the "alternate choosing units to fight with" would still apply.

So how are you resolving the specific requirement that quicksilver fights ahead of all other friend,y units, which would include those that charged.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So how are you resolving the specific requirement that quicksilver fights ahead of all other friend,y units, which would include those that charged.

Quicksilver doesn't say that. I would say the way you resolve it is the same as when you charge with two or more units. For reference, the verbage around chargers fighting first is the same as quicksilver.

BRB wrote:Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight phase

JakeSiren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So how are you resolving the specific requirement that quicksilver fights ahead of all other friend,y units, which would include those that charged.

Quicksilver doesn't say that. I would say the way you resolve it is the same as when you charge with two or more units. For reference, the verbage around chargers fighting first is the same as quicksilver.

BRB wrote:Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight phase

The special rule quicksilver swiftness overrides this.

Your better off posting the exact wording because people without the codex can't verify your point

U02dah4 wrote:
Your better off posting the exact wording because people without the codex can't verify your point

It's in the OP.

Fair enough I can see what he's getting at technically the wording says that it fights first and then there's a clause overruling enemy but not friendly chargers.

This would force you to pick it before chargers if read that way.

However chargers also fight first and their is no clause to say how it interacts with friendly chargers so they fight at the same speed rather than forcing you to pick it first

U02dah4 wrote:

However chargers also fight first and their is no clause to say how it interacts with friendly chargers so they fight at the same speed rather than forcing you to pick it first

The special rule quicksilver swiftness overrides the general rule that chargers fight first.

This unit always fights first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't charge.

Its clear how it interacts with friendly chargers. Units with quicksilver swiftness fight first in the Fight phase. This means before friendly chargers.

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

However chargers also fight first and their is no clause to say how it interacts with friendly chargers so they fight at the same speed rather than forcing you to pick it first

The special rule quicksilver swiftness overrides the general rule that chargers fight first.

This unit always fights first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't charge.

Its clear how it interacts with friendly chargers. Units with quicksilver swiftness fight first in the Fight phase. This means before friendly chargers.

Yes, and if there are enemy units with quicksilver swiftness or the like along with your unit with quicksilver swiftness and chargers, follow the 2nd sentence in Quicksilver Swiftness:

"If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place."

If it's only your units charging, ones with quicksilver swiftness would go first, then the friendly chargers (also your units), then units that didn't charge (your enemy, possibly with some units of yours if it had been a battle that started previously and you just charged some units into it)

Which is what I was saying all along
It ALWAYS fights first. This must be before friendly chargers because they do not always.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which is what I was saying all along
It ALWAYS fights first. This must be before friendly chargers because they do not always.

I disagree. The use of "always" is redundant and doesn't change that ""Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight phase".

In fact the use of "Always" in the wording of "fight first" rules, only confuses things since there are times when they in fact do not "always" fight first:

From the rare rules section:

"Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase ... If the enemy has units that charged, or have similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight from amongst theses units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place ... If a unit is under the effects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the Fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it".

This doesn't specifically reference friendly chargers, but it does clearly demonstrate that "always fight first" doesn't in fact mean "always", rather "always" seems to be used as a modifier for emphasis similar to "very", or "quite", without changing the meaning of the statement.

"Always" seems to be used here to draw attention to the fact that the situation is unusual, but does nothing to override the fact that chargers "fight first in the Fight phase".

Aash wrote:

From the rare rules section:

"Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase ... If the enemy has units that charged, or have similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight from amongst theses units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place ... If a unit is under the effects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the Fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it".

This doesn't specifically reference friendly chargers, but it does clearly demonstrate that "always fight first" doesn't in fact mean "always", rather "always" seems to be used as a modifier for emphasis similar to "very", or "quite", without changing the meaning of the statement.

"Always" seems to be used here to draw attention to the fact that the situation is unusual, but does nothing to override the fact that chargers "fight first in the Fight phase".

Right, it doesnt mention friendly chargers, so quicksilver quickness still fight before them.

No

From the rulebook


"CHARGING UNITS FIGHT FIRST
Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight
phase."

I can understand your interpretation but we have rules on both units maintaining that they fight first. Since both rules state they fight first and no rule states that it overules the other we treat them as simultaneous abilities and you therefore can choose which of the fight first units to select first

Going back to them both being in poolnA which must be resolved before going to pool b

U02dah4 wrote:
No

From the rulebook


"CHARGING UNITS FIGHT FIRST
Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight
phase."

I can understand your interpretation but we have rules on both units maintaining that they fight first. Since both rules state they fight first and no rule states that it overules the other we treat them as simultaneous abilities and you therefore can choose which of the fight first units to select first

Going back to them both being in poolnA which must be resolved before going to pool b

Specific trumps general, so the quicksilver quickness rule would trump the rule in the BRB.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Specific trumps general, so the quicksilver quickness rule would trump the rule in the BRB.

This.

No because the charging rule is specific in this instance

"Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight
phase"

No part of that is non specific and no part of that is explicitly overruled by the quicksilver wording

"This unit always fights first in the Fight phase,"

as by your own admission its not mentioned how it interacts with friendly chargers . So we have two specific rules with no mention of how they interact not one specific rule overuleing another they both say they fight first always is redundant and if you make the quicksilver first you are in just as much violation of the charging rule as if you pick a charger to go first.

And secondly specific trumping general has not been a rule in the rulebook since 7th edition

U02dah4 wrote:
No because the charging rule is specific in this instance

No, its not. Its a general rule. Anything in the core rules are general rules, which can be overriden by advanced, or special rules, like stratagems, chapter tactics, etc.

U02dah4 wrote:

And secondly specific trumping general has not been a rule in the rulebook since 7th edition

Its not written anywhere, but the game wouldnt work without it. There are tons of special rules allowing you to do things you cant do according to the general rules.

Specific Trumping General is not RAW, but is required to play the game at all. It is an implicit part of the rules.

(Also a clear example of why RAW is not the be all and end all of rules discussion)

So what your saying is that nowhere are general rules defined as general rules it is an artificial distinction and nowhere in the rules does it state rulebook rules are considered to be lesser or less important than codex rules. So RAW you have proved your own argument wrong.


Of course some rules overrule other rules. These rules are written in such a way as to tell you what they change and what they do. That's a specific rule and it can be located in either a codex or a rulebook. If a rule gives a you unit permission to shoot in the psychic phase it gives you permission to shoot in the psychic phase. Nothing more nothing less just what it specifically says it does. A rulebook example would be the overwatch stratagem which is a specific rule that gives a unit permission to overwatch which it would not normally be able to do according to the rules.

If a rule in the main rulebook gives you permission to do something that permission is equally valid to the permission in the codex.

if a rule is written is such a way as to explicitly state it overules things e.g. there's a BA strategem that gives you permission to ignore modifiers so you ignore that bit of the rules - but that isn't the case here both rules say they fight first neither rule specifically states it overules the other therefore both rules are timed the same and there are rules to handle synchronous abilities so RAW isn't broken.

And yes as you point out we fall back on RAW trumps RAI

And you've proven your case isn't RAW

Quicksilver Swiftness wrote:This unit always fights first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:CHARGING UNITS FIGHT FIRST
Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.

Both rules tell you the unit fight first. Thus you fall back to the rules of the Fight Phase to resolve which units that fight first resolve their attacks. Thus, Quicksilver Swiftness does not somehow trump your charging units as it does not instruct you to resolve it attacks before chargers.