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Unless otherwise stated, when
setting Fortifications up on the battlefield, they cannot be set up
within 3" of any other terrain feature that is not part of its own
datasheet (excluding hills, page 260)
Miasmic Malignifier states it can be set up ANYWHERE more than 12" away from enemy deployment zone and enemy models.
My question is, does that statement qualify as 'Unless otherwise stated' and thus make it actually able to be deployed within 3" of other terrain (And therefore maybe useable)
Or would it have to directly mention being allowed within 3" of terrain?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 15:31:23
I would personally say no, as while you're given conditions on where to set up this new thing, nothing states that it specifically overrides the 3" restriction.
Valkyrie wrote: I would personally say no, as while you're given conditions on where to set up this new thing, nothing states that it specifically overrides the 3" restriction.
"Anywhere" would override the 3" restriction. Within 1" of another terrain feature is part of "anywhere". The only restrictions are where to place it relative to the enemy deployment zone and enemy models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 16:34:52
The anywhere does not overule it would need to specifically state that it does (i have seen this in tourney packs)
Its a bad rule but it is what it is
You cannot set it up within 3"of another terrain feature but you can set it up anywhere on the board that is more than 12" from the enemy so their is a greater likelihood there will be such a gap
The only grey area due to bad rules writing is the pox furnace which while spawned by the same datasheet is a separate terrain feature and so arguably has a separate datasheet in which case has to be set up more than 3" away while being wholey within 6" essentially do 2 seperate terrain features with different rules spawned by the same datasheet count as one datasheet or 2 seperate sub datasheets
Again the core rule is stupid and makes most fortifications unplayable as in lots of bords you can't place them
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 17:53:37
The key thing is that it says "Unless otherwise stated"
"ANYWHERE more than 12" away from enemy deployment zone and enemy models." Does not state otherwise as it does not make reference to it. Sure it's permissive but saying you can do does not negate a can't
In addition if that were true the way round GW Fortification limitation would be to place it in reserves and have sneaky buildings which at the very least won't be there intention
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/04 08:43:35
U02dah4 wrote: The key thing is that it says "Unless otherwise stated"
"ANYWHERE more than 12" away from enemy deployment zone and enemy models." Does not state otherwise as it does not make reference to it. Sure it's permissive but saying you can do does not negate a can't
That is not always true. Saying can sometimes does negate a can't.
Take advancing and charging for example.
40k PDF rules Page 19 wrote:Start your Charge phase by selecting one eligible unit from your army that you want to charge, and declare a charge with it. An eligible unit is one that is within 12" of any enemy units at the start of the Charge phase. Units that have Advanced or Fallen Back this battle round, and units that start the Charge phase within Engagement Range of any enemy units, are not eligible units.
This tells us that Units that have Advanced can't charge.
However with the Tyranids:
Tyranid rulebook, Genestealers Dataslate wrote:Swift and Deadly: Genestealers can charge even if they Advanced during their turn.
So clearly we have a can that definitely negates a can't.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
U02dah4 wrote: Thats a completely different situation and supports my point
The swift and deadly rule specifically stated that it overrules the the can't and so it does
If it just said genestealers can charge units within 12" it wouldn't
The first clause is permissive the second provides an exemption to the can't rule. And you need the specific statement for it to do so.
The anywhere in the rule seems pretty specific that it can be, well, anywhere more than 12" away from enemy deployment zone and enemy models regardless of anything else.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
Being specific about 12" doesn't matter. Its needs to mention the 3" and in that respect it's not specific it doesnt mention the 3" rule at all so doesn't overrule it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/04 20:21:49
U02dah4 wrote: Being specific about 12" doesn't matter. Its needs to mention the 3" and in that respect it's not specific it doesnt mention the 3" rule at all so doesn't overrule it.
Does it say "anywhere" or "anywhere not currently restricted"? You are treating it as the latter.
Because that how restrictions work the cant overules the can
If it were the way round your proposing the restrictions rule wouldn't work on any fortification because you have permission to place them anywhere in your deployment zone
Advanceing would never stop a gun firing because the shooting phase gives you permission to fire
While you could cast the same psychic powers as many times as you like because the rules allow you to select it as long you ignore that pesky restriction on not being able to select the same power twice (except smite - note smite is another example of a clearly worded exemption to a restriction).
Plus a dozen more examples -
Your rule gives you permission to do something
It does not explicitly give you permission to ignore restrictions
Deathbringers quote showed a nice example of a permissive rule worded to ignore restrictions it directly references the restriction.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/02/04 21:41:38
"Once the battlefield has been created, the players must roll off again.
The winner chooses one of the two deployment zones to be theirs.
The players then alternate deploying their units, one at a time,
starting with the player who did not pick their deployment zone.
Models must be set up wholly within their own deployment zone."
Its just as specific wholley within the deployment zone is no more specific than anywhere12" from the enemy it equally doesn't mention an exemption from the 3" rule. The only difference is one gives you permission to be outside the deployment zone.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/04 23:03:43
As a rule, you must abide by all rules unless you have an exception. Normally, a fortification must be deployed:
A: within your deployment zone (Scenario rules)
B: not within 3" of any terrain feature (fortification rules)
C: not on top of another model (basic rules)
Miasmic Malignifier is allowed to deploy anywhere not within 12" of the opponent's deployment zone and enemy models.
This definitely overrides A as it explicitly changes that.
It could override B, but that is putting a lot of weight on "anywhere".
I cannot imagine it overrides C.
Therefore the conservative interpretation is it only overrides A.
nosferatu1001 wrote: It can go anywhere. Its rule is more specific than the general rules for deploying fortifications.
100% this.
It literally says "anywhere" and then gives a restriction.
Anywhere is fair game except for the restriction listed in the rule.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
I showed you need a specific exemption because can't overules can and if you don't have that none of the can't rules function at all such as the 3" rule in the first place as all fortifications could be placed , advancing wouldn't prevent shooting repeated manifesting of psychic powers would work, as would attacking targets that weren't charged when you charged.
Your interpretation that general permission overrides specific exemptions causes all rules to break down
So unless you can prove you have a specific named exemption to the 3" rule. And "anywhere" as a word does not mention the 3" rule so the onus is on you to prove it does then you have no case to a specific exemption.
or you have to prove why all the other permissive rules are treated differently despite just as specific wording while explaining why they bother to put specific exemptions on some as your arguing they don't need them
"Prove it" is not an argument so either you can show a specific exemption mentioning the 3" rule or explain why this permissive case is different to all other permissive cases
Or its pretty obvious we take the interpretation that doesn't involve breaking the game or creating a special snowflake for no reason.
Yes it makes it largely unplayable but the rule makes almost all fortifications unplayable it is a terrible rule but that doesn't mean you can pick and choose when to apply it
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/05 11:47:15
I showed you need a specific exemption because can't overules can
I have shown you that can't does not always overrule can.
Anywhere is more specific than the basic rules about terrain in this instance.
P.S. while "Prove it" is not an argument, it is asking you to provide rules that back up your statement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/05 12:09:31
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
I showed you need a specific exemption because can't overules can
I have shown you that can't does not always overrule can.
Anywhere is more specific than the basic rules about terrain in this instance.
P.S. while "Prove it" is not an argument, it is asking you to provide rules that back up your statement.
You only showed that in an example with a "specific exemption" in which it called out the rule it was exempting. So you only proved you needed what I have said you needed which is a specific exemption. You have not provided onem
No their is no distinction in specificity between core rules and codex since 7th edition. Both core and codex/datasheets are equally valid. Specific in this context is directly nameing or referencing of the rule being exempted where that exemption is located is not relevant I will accept one you can produce from any valid source but it must directly reference the 3" rule.
I provided a clear description of the support for my argument the strongest being that yours breaks the game if applied to other contexts and clearly provides undesirable results which you have no counter for.
You have provided no support for yours just an assertment that you are correct and a quote which you use to show permissive rules can be overridden but ignore that the quote you picked shows a specific exemption, which goes against your argument that you don't need one.
I don't need to disprove something that has no evidence, your assertion is wrong. it is wrong because you can't support your argument with evidence, you can only assert it as fact and you can't address why it should be treated differently to other identically permissive rules. Instead you clutch at straws with a 6th/7th edition rule because... you have no case.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/02/05 13:11:02
Ou of curiosety does the tyranid Sporocyst also get to deploy where it wants?
"Bombardment Organism: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone and any enemy models."
The GSC cult drill (and many of the imperial default once) do not come with these rules.
Rules of drill:
Spoiler:
Sector Mechanicus Structure: After it is set up, a Tectonic Fragdrill is treated as a Sector Mechanicus terrain feature. It cannot move for any reason, is not treated as a friendly or enemy model, and cannot be targeted or affected by any attacks or abilities.
Only INFANTRY, BEASTS, SWARMS and units that can FLY can be set up or end their move on the upper floors of a Sector Mechanicus Structure (any unit can do so on the ground floor). Unless they can FLY, INFANTRY, BEASTS and SWARMS must scale ladders, girders or walls to ascend or descend between the different levels of a Sector Mechanicus structure. INFANTRY are also assumed to be able to traverse around girders, buttresses and hanging chains, and so move through them without impediment. INFANTRY units that are entirely on a Sector Mechanicus Structure receive the benefit of cover. Other units that are entirely on or within a Sector Mechanicus Structure only receive the benefit of cover if at least 50% of every model is obscured from the point of view of the shooting model.
Underground Ingress: Once per turn, in their Movement phase, one INFANTRY or BIKER unit with the Cult Ambush ability can move off the battlefield if all of its models are on ground level and can move within 1" of this model (a unit cannot do so in the same phase it arrived as reinforcements). If a unit does this, remove the selected unit from the battlefield. At the end of your next Movement phase, set up that unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models. If the battle ends before this unit is set back up, it is destroyed.
Activate the Drill: If a model from your army is on a Tectonic Fragdrill at the end of your Movement phase, and there are no enemy models on it, you can activate the drill. If you do, first roll a D6 for every unit on ground level that is within 3" of the tip of this model’s large drill; on a 6 that unit immediately suffers D6 mortal wounds. Then roll a D6, adding 1 to the result for each other time the drill on this model has been activated during the battle. If the total is less than 6, the Seismic Tremors result below takes effect. On a 6+ the Seismic Tremors and Seismic Quake results below take effect. The Seismic Quake result can only take effect once per battle, regardless of how many Tectonic Fragdrills are on the battlefield.
Seismic Tremors: Until the start of your next Movement phase, subtract 2 from charge rolls made for units whilst they are within 12" of this model. This does not apply to units that can FLY, and the effects of multiple Seismic Tremors are not cumulative.
Seismic Quake: Draw a straight imaginary line, 1mm in thickness, from any point of one battlefield edge to any point of another battlefield edge in such a way that it crosses this model. Roll a D6 for every unit this line crosses that is on ground level (do not roll for units that can FLY): on a 4+ that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds and its Move characteristic is halved until the end of its next Movement phase.
p5freak wrote: The sporocyst isnt a fortification. The more than 3" away from terrain only affects fortifications.
I think you might confuse it with the flying transport you build from the same model kit. (I say transport, but it plays more like a drop pod.) The sporocyst is bought in the fortification slot though.
Having just looked up the datasheet as I've not seen a sporocyst fielded
It is subject to the 3" restriction as it has the fortification role and does not have a specific exemption
The arguments identical to the miasmic magnifier as it would be to a bastion deployed normally.
Q1 do you have the fortification battlefield role
Q2 do you have an exemption that specifically says to ignore the 3" rule.
If you answer yes to the first and no to the second it applies
The only grey area in fortifications I am aware of is the pox furnace that may have been intended to have a partial exemption but by strict RAW probably doesn't. However the RAW is unclear. Entertainingly even were the anywhere interpretation correct (which it isnt) the pox furnace is not subject to that word so would still need to be more than 3" from terrain.
Its a terrible rule and makes all three almost unplayable and thats why so many dislike it and I've seen tournaments house rule it away. However the rule is clear
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2021/02/05 14:50:17
I don't need to disprove something that has no evidence, your assertion is wrong. it is wrong because you can't support your argument with evidence, you can only assert it as fact and you can't address why it should be treated differently to other identically permissive rules. Instead you clutch at straws with a 6th/7th edition rule because... you have no case.
Well your statement is 100% wrong.
I have evidence, my assertion is that "anywhere" means anywhere.
Your statements make it seem like "anywhere" does not mean anywhere.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
