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Made in gb
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Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

.. so not sure about this.


Be interesting -- and possibly not in a good way -- to see if this has further repercussions as time goes by :

https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-games-nemesis-system-patent-was-approved-this-week-after-multiple-attempts


Warner Brothers Interactive Entertainment, publishers of Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor and its 2017 sequel, Shadow of War (both developed by Monolith Entertainment), have finally managed to secure a patent for the franchise’s signature Nemesis System.

The US Patent and Trademark Office released an issue notice on February 3, 2021, stating that the patent would go into effect on February 23 of this year. Warner Bros. has the option to maintain the patent through 2035, providing they keep up with the necessary fees.

The patent, filed as “Nemesis characters, nemesis forts, social vendettas and followers in computer games,” effectively codifies the functions of Monolith’s Nemesis system and the sum of its parts as the property of WB.

While the language in the application is fairly obtuse - as most patent claims tend to be - the “short” version is that the patent covers a system featuring procedurally-generated NPCs that exist in a hierarchy and interact with and will remember the actions of players, have their appearance/behavior altered by players, and whose place in that hierarchy can change and affect the position of other NPCs in said hierarchy (and yes, that’s the simplified version).

It also covers the Social Conquest battles from Shadow of War, wherein players can fortify or attack one another’s strongholds to see how their army of orcs fares against their friends’.
Warner Bros. has been trying to secure the patent for the system since 2015, but has had to repeatedly revise and resubmit the application. Initial rejections claimed that there were too many similarities in the application to other patents - including ones held by Square Enix, the mobile game QONQR, and even Webkinz - though recent rejections were more focused on the specificity of language throughout the patent.

While it’s unclear what would happen were a game to release with a Nemesis system of its own between now and February 23, after that date any developer wishing to build a feature with all the aspects detailed in the patent (or at least enough to be considered infringement) will have to secure a license from WB.

Developers can still create similar systems that aren’t a 1:1 recreation of Monolith’s program, however – the Mercenaries in AC Odyssey or Watch Dogs Legion’s fascinating Census system are recent examples of dynamically-generated NPCs and social networks that would likely not be met with a legal challenge – though as members of both the Mordor games and Ubisoft teams have said, such systems are a major collaborative effort requiring considerable resources and development time.

Rumors late last year year hinted that WB Games was potentially going to be acquired by Microsoft after reports that Time Warner was interested in selling its interactive division, though any talk of sales seems to have gone the way of an unfortunate orc captain.





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While it’s unclear what would happen were a game to release with a Nemesis system of its own between now and February 23, after that date any developer wishing to build a feature with all the aspects detailed in the patent (or at least enough to be considered infringement) will have to secure a license from WB.

Developers can still create similar systems that aren’t a 1:1 recreation of Monolith’s program, however – the Mercenaries in AC Odyssey or Watch Dogs Legion’s fascinating Census system are recent examples of dynamically-generated NPCs and social networks that would likely not be met with a legal challenge – though as members of both the Mordor games and Ubisoft teams have said, such systems are a major collaborative effort requiring considerable resources and development time.


This seems to be the "money shot" right here - they probably (HOPEFULLY) wanted the patent so they could license it out to other studios and developers for cash. If they are aggressive about this and don't demand a kings ransom for it, etc. this will hopefully result in more games incorporating similar features which I think could only be a good thing. The alternative is that they intend this feature to be a "moat" and plan to use it exclusively themselves as a selling point for their future games in order to try to drive sales away from competitors, etc. - I don't think that approach will work too well because as noted there are already other ways of accomplishing more or less the same thing that wouldn't run afoul of the patent, but it would in general just have a chilling effect on the industry by limiting/restricting access to these sorts of gameplay mechanics to only the largest and most resource-rich studios and developers who are able to invest the time and money needed to develop their own systems.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

There was an application called Massive developed for the original LOTR movie. It was eventually licensed out to other studios to use for large fight scenes.

Around 2008, another system called Mammoth was released, which did about the same but included some incremental upgrades.

Both were patented, both were commercially successful. The point here is there's rarely something that shuts out similar innovations. I'd say the chief protection for this patent would be WB's mountain of cash moreso than the USPTO.



   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

The flip side of that is that you have things like the HeroClix/Mage Knight clickybase combat dial system, which was patented by Wizkids or Topps or whomever and jealously hoarded for their own exclusive use and used to sue other designers/publishers who implemented anything that was vaguely similar.

Comparatively speaking its a relatively insignificant patent and I dont know that it really stifled too much creativity or innovation, but its an example of how patents can be weaponized to try to maintain a moat.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
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USA

I'm not sure how they'll be able to defend that in any meaningful way.

There are already other games that took the Nemesis system and made something that's basically the same thing. AC Odyssey for example (and that game released in 2018). I actually find this bizarre, but welcome to outdated IP laws. I see little reason you should be able patent a concept like the Nemesis system anymore than WotC can patent the use of a D20 for action resolution. There's simply no real way to limit the development of such a basic concept.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/07 22:58:32


   
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 LordofHats wrote:
I'm not sure how they'll be able to defend that in any meaningful way.

There are already other games that took the Nemesis system and made something that's basically the same thing. AC Odyssey for example (and that game released in 2018). I actually find this bizarre, but welcome to outdated IP laws. I see little reason you should be able patent a concept like the Nemesis system anymore than WotC can patent the use of a D20 for action resolution. There's simply no real way to limit the development of such a basic concept.


The difficulties are presumably why they had to resubmit the patent request to the patent office so many times.

We'll wait and see how this plays out.
   
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Generally speaking, if a big company wants something, its probably bad for the gamers. Can't see any upside to this decision.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Sometimes I get the feeling that the US patent office just eventually caves to big companies throwing patent requests (cash) at them. That said there does seem to be a fundamental break in the system in the USA since, its my impression, that more big firms seem to register really daft/unenforceable/ideas not in the spirit of the system in the USA more so than other countries.

I can't work out if its simply that the patent office has done such a good marketing job that companies feel they must invest that money into patents even if they are basically never going to stand up in court to any challenge; or if its firms greedy for that once in a lifetime chance to sue someone and make a fortune for no work - or just part and parcel of daily life in the legal teams to the point where its just a regular job people do and get paid for and no one pauses to really review it.

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Cronch wrote:
Generally speaking, if a big company wants something, its probably bad for the gamers. Can't see any upside to this decision.


It depends. On the one hand, WB is basically appropriating this for itself. On the other hand, WB might use it as a way to farm out this functionality to developers that want to include it in their games. There was almost certainly a lot of work and testing - including running up a lot of blind alleys - in the process of putting the nemesis system together. If WB were to market this, the patent could be used to induce other developers to use WB as a paid consultant in implementing the system in their own games.
   
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United States

The last time this happened it was Namco patenting Loading Screen Mini-Games. The end result of the patent was no videogames having loading screen minigames for like 20 years or something. So I'm guessing all that this is going to do is mean that we don't see the nemesis system in any games until the patent expires. Which sucks because it was an interesting idea.
   
Made in us
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balmong7 wrote:
The last time this happened it was Namco patenting Loading Screen Mini-Games. The end result of the patent was no videogames having loading screen minigames for like 20 years or something. So I'm guessing all that this is going to do is mean that we don't see the nemesis system in any games until the patent expires. Which sucks because it was an interesting idea.


If WB went to the trouble of patenting this, then *they* at least plan on doing something with it. Given that, claiming that we won't see it used in *any* games seems rather inaccurate.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It wouldn't be the first time a company patents something and then does nothing with it. Sometimes its because whatever they were going to do with it gets cancelled or changes shape or otherwise no longer requires it. Sometimes they do it on the offchance because its rolled into long term retainer legal costs so it doesn't "cost" them anything to do.

Heck sometimes you'll find legal firms will push for certain things to be done just because it will pay them to do it and they have to look out for their own company interests whilst still looking out for the clients interests.


Heck sometimes big firms end up holding into things that no one even remembers them having. It gets filed, shelved, archived, backed up, put in storage and forgotten until someone comes digging through the archives or such.

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Eumerin wrote:
balmong7 wrote:
The last time this happened it was Namco patenting Loading Screen Mini-Games. The end result of the patent was no videogames having loading screen minigames for like 20 years or something. So I'm guessing all that this is going to do is mean that we don't see the nemesis system in any games until the patent expires. Which sucks because it was an interesting idea.


If WB went to the trouble of patenting this, then *they* at least plan on doing something with it. Given that, claiming that we won't see it used in *any* games seems rather inaccurate.


Not at all. You underestimate the willingness of companies to hold onto IP simply to stifle competition and at the same time have some USP that looks good on a board of directors meeting memo..

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
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I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


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Companies are not your friend. No company is your friend, nothing a company will do will benefit you more than it'll benefit them, and if the choice is between customer benefit and a little more profit, a company will throw you under the bus every time. There is no "it depends".
   
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United States

Eumerin wrote:
balmong7 wrote:
The last time this happened it was Namco patenting Loading Screen Mini-Games. The end result of the patent was no videogames having loading screen minigames for like 20 years or something. So I'm guessing all that this is going to do is mean that we don't see the nemesis system in any games until the patent expires. Which sucks because it was an interesting idea.


If WB went to the trouble of patenting this, then *they* at least plan on doing something with it. Given that, claiming that we won't see it used in *any* games seems rather inaccurate.


Shadow of War came out in 2017. They have not published a game that utilized the nemesis system since. Most of the games they published were VR/AR gimmicks or Lego and Mortal Kombat games. Monolith the studio that specifically made Shadow of War hasn't published a game at all since, but I think they are doing the Hogwarts game which is slated for 2022? So we may get 1 nemesis system game every 5 years assuming the Hogwarts game also uses it. It may as well be no games at that point.
   
 
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