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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User






An odd odd situation came up in a game I wasn't sure how to resolve. Thoughts appreciated.

Ork Warboss at top of pic charged Bladeguard behind a ruined wall. He was able to because Defence Line allows him to charge unit within 1" as long as he's touching it.

The Bladeguard model he was nearest to dies, and Boyz subsequently pile in, through the ruined wall, to fill that gap.

In the next turn (when pic was taken), can warboss fight, even though he's not in engagement range? There is still a Bladeguard within 2" of him, so Defence Line rules suggest he can, but that seems weird, especially when there are Boyz between him and the Bladeguard. Is Defence Line only meant to cover the turn in which you charged? I haven't seen any FAQs for this.

Also, assuming he is able to fight, can he be chosen as a target for an out of shot bunch on I tercessors? He's "in combat", but not in engagement range...

Cheers
[Thumb - PXL_20210216_231523973.jpg]

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I agree that a FAQ would be useful to clarify this issue.

My reading of the rule is that the Defence Line 2" range only applies in the fight phase immediately after the unit charged, so in your example in the subsequent phase, the Ork Warboss would not be able to fight.

Not an official rules source, but this goonhammer article also interprets as only applying in the turn you charge:
https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammmer-guide-to-terrain-in-9th/#Defence_Line
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Well the Defence Line rules state "Units are eligible to fight, and models can make attacks with melee weapons, if their target is on the opposite side of this terrain feature and within 2"."

So if the Warboss is within 2" he is "eligible to fight".

If the Warboss is further than 2" in that setup, he can not fight.

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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 DeathReaper wrote:
Well the Defence Line rules state "Units are eligible to fight, and models can make attacks with melee weapons, if their target is on the opposite side of this terrain feature and within 2"."

So if the Warboss is within 2" he is "eligible to fight".

If the Warboss is further than 2" in that setup, he can not fight.


I know. Just seems weird though. Firstly that he can fight through another unit (this might be partly cos I've still got Boyz on tiny bases), and secondly that he can be stager for shooting in the same turn as being eligible to fight.
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

Defence lines are really weird in general. That isn't the half of it.

There's a pretty good argument that while they extend the range at which a unit can make attacks with weapons and be selected to fight, they don't extend engagement range. Which has all sorts of odd implications, such as being able to walk into combat with something on the other side of a barricade without declaring a charge. Or similarly walk out of the combat without falling back.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Aash wrote:
I agree that a FAQ would be useful to clarify this issue.

My reading of the rule is that the Defence Line 2" range only applies in the fight phase immediately after the unit charged, so in your example in the subsequent phase, the Ork Warboss would not be able to fight.

Not an official rules source, but this goonhammer article also interprets as only applying in the turn you charge:
https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammmer-guide-to-terrain-in-9th/#Defence_Line


Thanks for that. I think that's how I'll play it from now on, ie only applies in the turn you charged. Keeps things much cleaner, and less chance of feel bads too. Generally I like the 9th terrain rules, but there are a few real oddities that could do with a tidy-up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arson Fire wrote:
Defence lines are really weird in general. That isn't the half of it.

There's a pretty good argument that while they extend the range at which a unit can make attacks with weapons and be selected to fight, they don't extend engagement range. Which has all sorts of odd implications, such as being able to walk into combat with something on the other side of a barricade without declaring a charge. Or similarly walk out of the combat without falling back.


Exactly. Engagement range is pretty fundamental, it's not helpful to have stuff that messes with it. Glad it's not just me that couldn't figure this out!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/17 09:16:06


 
   
Made in gb
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores





Arson Fire wrote:
There's a pretty good argument that while they extend the range at which a unit can make attacks with weapons and be selected to fight, they don't extend engagement range. Which has all sorts of odd implications, such as being able to walk into combat with something on the other side of a barricade without declaring a charge. Or similarly walk out of the combat without falling back.


Defence Lines don't extend engagement range, which means you get those effects that you mentioned. Barricades worked a similar way in 8th Edition, so this isn't a new thing.

Defence Lines give the defender a big advantage in that even though the enemy can fight them over them the defenders can just move away without needing to withdraw and can therefore open fire on the attacking units. Or they can just stand still behind the line and shoot and then fight again in the fight phase. I think this is quite deliberate and it's quite a nice buff for defending gun armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aash wrote:
Not an official rules source, but this goonhammer article also interprets as only applying in the turn you charge:
https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammmer-guide-to-terrain-in-9th/#Defence_Line


I don't read goonhammer as saying that..

It says that defence lines change the conditions for a successful charge and also that it changes the definition for eligible units in the fight phase. There is no connection between the two things, there's no condition that the second effect only applies in the turn in which the first (charge) effect happened. They're separate. Note also that it doesn't say that engagement range is altered, it's not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LeeJBurns wrote:
Thanks for that. I think that's how I'll play it from now on, ie only applies in the turn you charged. Keeps things much cleaner, and less chance of feel bads too. Generally I like the 9th terrain rules, but there are a few real oddities that could do with a tidy-up.


The way that defence lines work, only increasing the range in the fight phase and not in any other phase (such as shooting), has been there since 8th Edition. This isn't some new 9th Edition twist, it's how the rules are written and given that it's been there for "so long" (I bought Rogue Trader in '87, it feels odd saying that 8th was a long time ago, but there you go) you've got to presume that it's what intended.

There has already been tidying up at some point since 8th came out. Initially you couldn't charge a unit behind a barricade (defence line) as it only increased the range in the fight phase. But by Chapter Approved 2019 they had also allowed you to charge if you end up within 2" and touch the barricade. So after several Chapter Approved books, numerous FAQs and now 9th Edition Defence Lines still don't extend the engagement range so as to impact movement or shooting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/17 09:37:12


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Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

Yeah fair enough, it doesn't break the game in half or anything. But it can lead to some interesting situations, in addition to the walking into combat thing.

For instance a tyranid mawloc has the ability to deepstrike anywhere outside 1" of enemy models, but is not permitted to charge in the turn it arrives.
However place it on the other side of a defence line, and now it can fight. It's not much of a threat in melee, but if positioning permits it could use its 3" pile-in/consolidate to get in engagement range of an enemy unit to tie them up. Something that wouldn't otherwise be possible.

Another fun one is heroically intervening a character across a defence line in order to avoid enemy attacks.
In the event that the character was previously within 2" of an enemy across the defence line, but could be moved 3" over the defence line to be just outside of 1" of the enemy. It takes a fairly contrived scenario to make this happen and be a useful thing to do (for instance it wouldn't work on the turn the unit charged the character, as they would then activate and pile-in regardless), but it's technically possible.

As I said, not gamebreaking, just interesting implications.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/17 10:00:08


 
   
Made in gb
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores





Arson Fire wrote:
As I said, not gamebreaking, just interesting implications.


I'm with you on that. I had played 8th for a while when I sat down and really read the rules for barricades, and that spun me into a real "but that means this, and this, and that, and that rule does this to it" panic.

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Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

It's irrelevant if something is between the boss and the blade guard. Defense line says he can fight If within 2".
   
 
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