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Hello!

I would like to explore some alternatives to WH ... since I noticed that GW/40K is the only game that I have tried. I have also found, here and there, some analogy between GW and D&D: like those are the biggest names but that doesn't mean that they exhaust the range. In the case of RPGs, in particular, I never play D&D and I greatly enjoy many other systems, both "mainstream" and "indie". So, I wonder, maybe there are other miniature games that are worth checking out. I know the gist of AoS and Warcry... they are similar to 40K from my understanding so they are not what I am asking for.

Of course, here on Dakka there are many forums devoted to other games but I would like some guide/some reasoned hint... bonus points would be if the ruleset were easily accessible (e.g. free basic rules in pdf, not extremely expensive complete ruleset subdivided in N other books) and super bonus points would be if I could re-use my large collection of GW models (maybe as proxies, but reasonable looking proxies).

So, are there radically different approaches, not based on AB, AC, T, R, W, saving throws, etc? Is there a war-game which is not based on D6 and their peculiar probability distributions (which seems to me, from a mathematical point of view, at the base of the disconnect between the WH/the setting and WH/the games...)? What is worth checking out and above all, why?

Or the various games are more or less "similar", albeit with a different theme?

Please help me broaden my views!

PS: I hope this is not OT for this forum, in case I will remove it and post somewhere else.

I mean if you want skirmish there is Infinity, Zona Alfa, Frostgrave, and soon Stargrave.

If you want just "not 40k/AOS" There is the onepage rules variant, Grimdark Future/Age of Fantasy.

Start with Osprey Games they currently have a sale on and provide half a dozen of the most popular alternatives. If you've got a gaming group discuss which games they play as thats always a good place to start.

similar to Warhammer Fantasy as Rank & File games there are:

Legacy Rules: mostly 6th Edition Ravening Hordes

Community Legacy Rules: Warhammer CE (6th/7th), Warhammer Armies ("best of" 6th to 8th), Fluffhammer (8th)

The Ninth Age, based on Warhammer 8th Edi but turned into its own game optimised for tournament play

Kings of War, more streamlined and focused on units

Oathmark, Hordes of the Thing, Lion Rampant to name some more

for the Warhammer players usually those who really liked 8th and are more into the list building apects (as finding the best combination of units sizes, magic items and heros) are into 9th Age, those who are more into the focus on units and liked 6th (less strong heroes or magic) are into Kings of War

and those who have a fixed group that wants to get nostalgic use some of the old rules

While I personally wouldn't recommend it since it's not my particular flavor, Kings of War is a fantasy alternative to Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
Oathmark is also the same vein of Rank n Flank fantasy armies.

Warlords of Erewhon and Dragon Rampant are miniature agnostic rulesets for fantasy battles more similar to Age of Sigmar (loose units). Both are fairly different from AoS in the core rules engine.

Those are rulesets I think are worth mentioning where you can use your current figures.

Conquest: Last Argument of Kings and Conquest: First Blood are games by Para Bellum which are, respectively, Rank and Flank and AoS style loose formations. The core rules engine is extremely similar to GW games, though. They are also much larger figures than GW games go.

As for Sci-fi stuff, I have very little experience and thus can't recommend anything beyond the already mentioned One Page Rules (which I play a lot of and highly recommend!)

A few years ago I would have suggested Warmachine/Hordes.
But it appears the third ed. (MK3) has brought the game down.

Another echo for Kings of War. IMO, it's the best rank n file fantasy wargame out there, I like it a lot more than Age of Sigmar or previous versions of GW's fantasy battles pre-AoS. I also have Oathmark, which looks neat, but have yet to try it.

KoW is quick, it's mostly minis-agnostic (though Mantic is increasing their range), it's easy to learn and provides the depth of experience that it's older cousin AoS/WHFB got burdened down by. You can also multibase your models (i.e., put a bunch of models, diorama-style, onto the right base size for a 'troop' or 'regimen' or whatever unit) so it's much easier set up and take down time too!

I also think the basic KoW rules are free, so you can try it out with your current models, then if you like it, go in deeper.

I've enjoyed playing Frostgrave, Bolt Action and Test of Honour which are not GW games.

Thanks everybody. A lot of excellent pointers.

For Osprey, the first thing they say is that they currently don't ship to EU, unfortunately.

But the other games that you suggested seem well worth a check. I will look for the One page rules right now. I have checked out Infinity, it seems nice, too. But in due time I will check all them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Llamahead wrote:
Start with Osprey Games they currently have a sale on and provide half a dozen of the most popular alternatives. If you've got a gaming group discuss which games they play as thats always a good place to start.

At my FLGS it's mostly Warcry, at the moment, and even that it's currently more or less impossible due to (super important) rules for the containment of the pandemic. So my real current gaming group is my house, with my (young) kids (and, if I am really very convincing, my wife). This means that basically we only play what is available to me, and only if I can explain the rules.

Under this respect, the One page ruleset could really be interesting... we use the same minis and maybe the rules are so streamlined that my kids can master them (I mean, they are already beating me, because they are horribly lucky with the dice! but the more subtle aspects of the rules are difficult to remember for me, for them is really a bit too much...)

Make a youtube search for:

guerilla miniature games let's play

You'll get "first playthrough" type tutorials for dozens of alternative wargames, big and small.

If you like solo/co-op experience then I suggest Sellswords and Spellslingers from Ganesha Games, which is a fantasy, mini/bases agnostic game = you could use any mini you want and have a great time, either solo or with some friends.

in my opinion OnePage rules are not very good if you play with your wife/family
those rules are made for people who are experienced wargamers and want to get away from GW rules without doing something new

games that are good to be played at home or introduce new people into the hobby
(simple rules, easy to get into it, no need to buy additional stuff to play the full game etc)

X-Wing (core box)
Warhammer Underworlds (core boxes)
Godtear
Walking Dead All out War
Dreadball
Blitz Bowl (forgot it first)

Kings of War only if you have models for 2 armies (core rules are free and come with 2 army lists, game uses unit bases so 2 small Warhammer armies get a the full game here)

If you dont want to negate GW completely, then Necromunda is nice as it is close to 40k but at a smaller scale.
Blood Bowl is also a great game but it requires a kind of different thinking.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
If you like solo/co-op experience then I suggest Sellswords and Spellslingers from Ganesha Games, which is a fantasy, mini/bases agnostic game = you could use any mini you want and have a great time, either solo or with some friends.

This sound very interesting! And I had never heard about it, thanks for sharing this idea!

 wuestenfux wrote:
If you dont want to negate GW completely, then Necromunda is nice as it is close to 40k but at a smaller scale.
Blood Bowl is also a great game but it requires a kind of different thinking.

Blitz Bowl would be the better option over Blood Bowl (I knew I missed something in my list)

How about Bolt Action and Infinity which are played occasionally in our game store?

Bolt Action is tricky as a historical game about a sensitive historical topic

easy to use rules and easy to get models, not quite well playable out of the box outside specific scenarios

if the other one is not into history at all, I won't suggest any historical wargame at all (and if they are into history, not start with WW2)

for Infinity, in my opinion it is too complicated and deadly as an intro game (same as Warmachine) for the family


to introduce someone who is not really interested into the hobby but curios and or need something to play because of the pandemic, those games need to be balanced, playable out of the box and forgive mistakes

games that need additional models, or terrain to really work well, or have a big list building aspect (to be balanced between to 2 factions) are not the best to start if someone does not want to start wargaming in the first place

hence why I came to the above list, there are more games like that for sure, but those are the ones that come to my mind without doing much of a search

 kodos wrote:
in my opinion OnePage rules are not very good if you play with your wife/family
those rules are made for people who are experienced wargamers and want to get away from GW rules without doing something new

I play with my partner who has no experience with wargames. She finds it very easy. It's really not hard to keep track of 2 stats and a few special rules for a unit.

I'm curious what about the rules makes you think that they are made for experienced wargamers?

the rules are more deadly and the balance depending on the version and faction is off
so it can happen that you jump into the game, (start with grimdark future) chose the faction/list that sounds cool and the first games end one sided with the no chance for one player

it is not about how complex the rules are but how easy it is to get into and what is needed to start
it is kind of similar if people start playing magic by buying boosters instead of the pre-made decks for the first game

if there enough models/terrain and a little experience with wargames and list building it works out better

Okay, that's pretty good reasoning. I haven't personally experienced a huge misbalance but I saw a thread on dakkadakka a bit ago detailing Prime Brothers vs Soulstealer Cults and it seemed pretty bad.

RandolphCarterKadath wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
If you like solo/co-op experience then I suggest Sellswords and Spellslingers from Ganesha Games, which is a fantasy, mini/bases agnostic game = you could use any mini you want and have a great time, either solo or with some friends.

This sound very interesting! And I had never heard about it, thanks for sharing this idea!

Here you have a review https://www.tabletopstories.net/language/en/2020/03/sellswords-spellslingers-rules-review/
You can got to Drivethrurpg to buy it or read reviews https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/231567/Sellswords-and-Spellslingers-Solo-and-Cooperative-fantasy-Miniature-Rules

To the OP - if you are after fun things that are straightforward to play and involve your family, have you considered board games?
Some of these now have excellent miniatures (so can still do some painting) and are a low input gateway to a similar experience.

Off the top of my head, for multiplayer I would recommend: Arcadia Quest, any of the Zombiecide games or Massive Darkness etc.

lord_blackfang wrote:Make a youtube search for:

guerilla miniature games let's play

You'll get "first playthrough" type tutorials for dozens of alternative wargames, big and small.

Bearing in mind I don't think the OP has English as a first language? And the Guerilla Games guy, as good as those videos are, speaks at 4000mph - I have trouble understanding him sometimes and I am from the UK!

wuestenfux wrote:How about Bolt Action and Infinity which are played occasionally in our game store?

As much as I love Infinity I don't think it falls within 'easy to play with family' - even the Code One rules are detailed compared to a lot of other games, plus putting together metal minis etc.

A good alternative that is kinda in the same vein as 40k is Void 1.1. The game first appeared in the late 90's/early 2000's but it is slowly resurfacing now with Seb Games having acquired all of the original moulds. All of the rules for it a are free and here to download, you can easily port your existing 40k minis over as, although things might not be a 1:1 match, there should be a good proxy in all of the army books for just about anything.

The above is the 40k certain people keep bleating on about, it has AA, it has D10s. Put your money where your mouths are, people!

What's tricky about WW2?

There's loads of historical games for WW2, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Battlegroup, and Schwere Kompanie all deal with engagements of roughly the same number of troops as 40k (although different size miniatures). Bolt Action was written by ex-GW writers iirc and is often described as "what 40k could have been".

There's also Blood Red Skies, a WW2 dogfight game with some very slick mechanics and I love it.

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone mention Star Wars Legion in my skim through - it seems to be gaining a lot of popularity lately and looks like a great game.

Honestly, the number of different wargame rules is legion. The problem is finding players to join you.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
What's tricky about WW2?

the theme
you know in some countries still a controversal topic and some parts of it even forbidden

less of a problem in the US or UK but turning up with a Waffen-SS painted Army or the original Bolt Action DAK command dice will get you in serious trouble in other countries

Pulp Alley is great, using different sizes of dice (D6, D8, D10) to represent skill/heroism and also works great to represent protagonists vs antagonists. Mainly it's for pulp settings (Indiana Jones, etc) but probably easily adaptable for 40k models.

Also, I've made a game I'm calling 'Titanomachina' that might be different from the usual buckets of dice, although it's currently only available for TTS from the Steam Workshop. I'd love to boast it eschews dice entirely, but the dice are what I've used to implement the buildings in the game! Otherwise you don't roll dice for anything.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
What's tricky about WW2?

As he said, it's a sensitive topic.

I know a fair few people round here (myself included) who won't touch historicals with a barge pole as (one of my friends puts it) "You're no longer playing pretend, as this gak really happened.". He, and I both certainly won't touch WW2 games in particular for that reason as we are both of the age where we had grandparents fight in that conflict, so it hits far too close to home for us.

Some people are okay with it, we have an RAF base quite close by and loads of the RAF guys play Bolt Action; but for some it is just to on the nose.

I big second for KOW, as it is pretty well-balanced and so much easier to play, especially if trying to get newbies to play.

You can by the rulebook with all of the army list for about the same price you would buy one GW codex. And, yes, the basic rules are free.

If you want a 40k-like set, Mantic does have their Warpath. I have not played it, but the rules are free as well. I hear it has some an issue here and there, but certainly not as much as anything by GW.

If you like a game that's similar in scale to old 40k but plays much more sensibly, I can't plug Chain of Command (a World War 2 rulesset) enough.

It is completely different to warhammer in execution (i.e. how combat is adjudicated) but it manages to be pretty simple while also being far more "Realistic". If you want to watch battlereports, Tabletop CP on Youtube has had some great ones the last couple of weeks.

And, since it's World War II, the minis are cheap as dirt to get (it also doesn't have a scale, though it recommends constraining yourself to between 15mm and 28mm - no 54mm World War II minis on a 6x4 haha).

3 Non-GW games have "stuck" with my group:

Kings of War: A streamlined, better balanced WHFB. My group came from WHFB tournaments, but mostly in 6th and 7th. 8th died in my group before GW killed it themselves. KoW is the mass fantasy game that I always wished WHFB was. Fantastic tournament scene in the US, all awesome guys and gals.

A Song of Ice and Fire: The Miniatures game: My personal favorite. I much prefer alternating activations over moving whole armies and I enjoy the faction cards each House has. It separates them from being a bunch of generic humans fighting. It's also a very inexpensive and very smooth game. I can't recommend it enough, I think it's a hidden gem. If you are a fan of the books or show, you should absolutely check it out.

Star Wars Legion: Another alternating activations game, this time with guns and laser swords. After playing my demo game, I said to my friend "I don't think I'll ever play 40k again"... and I haven't. This is currently my second favorite game. List building in this is probably the most important in any game I've played because you also choose scenarios and deployment.

Summary:
If you're looking for mass fantasy game with ranks and flanks, go KoW.

If you're looking for a smaller ranked game full of card play, alternating activations, and dripping with theme, go ASOIAF. Especially if you like the books/show.

If you're looking for a sci fi game with alternating activations deep list building, go Legion. Especially if you like Star Wars

Right now I play Legion and ASOIAF and it reminds of my days in high school when I played 40k and WHFB, only both games are much better now. And cheaper