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Battlefield Tourist




MN

We have an interesting Thread going about being a new DM and some tips and tricks for playing and planning your adventures/campaigns.

One of the common threads is that "players" will throw a monkey wrench in the plans and "ruin" everything. Therefore, I wanted to start a thread to talk about how players can actually make life easier for their DM/GM.

Of course, as a player you do not know the plan. Therefore, it is really easy to step in it and focus too much on the wrong clue, NPC, or plot points. That is part of the normal friction of being a player. However, there are some behaviors and techniques that any player can use to help a game run smoothly. Here are a handful of suggestions to get us all started:

1. When your turn comes up, know what you are going to do.

Typically, you have been waiting and watching what the rest of the group is doing. To save time and keep the pace of the game, have an idea of what you want to do and what questions you need answers for to do it BEFORE it is your actual turn.

2. Pass the spotlight around

Here I mean, be ready to toss the focus of a scene to a fellow player instead of keeping it focused on your character. For example, you face a locked door and you could try to just smash it down, but you know one of your fellows is a rogue, then pas the spotlight to them to handle it. You say something like, "Hey, Gloria.... I think your character should try to pick the lock. What do you think?"

3. Be cooperative

Even if you are an evil edgelord character, you can still be cooperative. Do not try to hamper or disrupt the play of your group. Once I had a character who actively disliked a fellow character, and as part of the plot they got poisoned. As a plyers, I still did whatever I could to help that plot point get resolved, and RPed the failures as reluctance to help or foot dragging.

4. Do not be a Rules Lawyer

If the GM/DM says do X or roll Y. Do it. Do not start debating the rules with them. That kills the game and you can discuss it after the game or before the next one.


So, what do you guys think?

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Nuremberg

Great thread idea. I agree with all of those. I would add:
5. Don't quarterback. Let other players take their turns and don't try to optimise the groups actions. It slows down combat, is tedious, and makes the game less fun for everyone.

   
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#2 needs emphasizing more. I've seen players who think the game is all about their character and try to monopolize the spotlight, even when their character cannot possibly be present.

Do not talk over the game-master when the GM is explaining stuff, then ask to have it explained again.

Do not interrupt the game when you are late to tell us why you are late. Especially when your "excuse" is your guild was on a big raid in your MMORPG.

Do not interrupt the game to conduct M:tG or other CCG trades. Even though the RPG we are currently playing is based on one (L5R).

(Actually, I guess the last group I GM'd for were a bunch of jerks. Probably should have started killing characters as the above infractions happened. "You interrupted me for the third time this session. Your character is dead. Make a new one if you like.")

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Legendary Master of the Chapter





UK

The biggest one that doesn't often come up is that 'yes and...' absolutely applies both ways. It's expected that the DM takes this approach to help the players towards success and make their ideas work (or at least move the narrative forward) rather than stopping them dead in their tracks. Offer your DM the same courtesy, and when they lay down a platform, be that a scene setup, a character, a combat encounter or a whole plot, build on it with them rather than trying to knock it down or ignore it.

If the DM presents a villain that's clearly meant to be intimidating, don't immediately start making a joke of that character. If the DM clearly tries to draw your attention to a location or event, don't stubbornly refuse to engage with it. If a piece of lore seems important to the setting, don't build a character that undermines it. So on and so forth.

As a player, you have an expectation that the DM work with you, not against you. Do the same for them, and remember that this is a cooperative game both ways across the screen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For me, the biggest pet peeve in that vein is players attacking out of the blue mid-roleplay to get the drop on a villain*. A surprise round, however devastatingly spectacular you think it'll be, is not worth ruining the dramatic tension of a pre-fight showdown. It'll be obvious when it's appropriate for the fight to start, and if you've ever seen a movie or read a book or been told a story, I bet you'll know when that is. Be patient and enjoy the buildup.


*specifically a villain, with things to say and an important role in the narrative. Set up the surprise round on those goblins or gnolls or that T Rex all you like...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/25 23:29:52


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Nuremberg

This is a good article on the topic:
https://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/06/20/11-ways-to-be-a-better-roleplayer/

Paradigm you make a good point about co-operation. I would go even a step further - try to consider the DM as another player trying to have fun, and think about what would make the game for fun for them. Too often DMs are treated like service providers rather than other players in the game. If you know your DM finds something tedious, don't constantly engage them about it. If you know they find something exciting, don't stomp it flat before it gets to do anything.

I had this happen to me a lot in my last game. An example, I painted a big hydra mini for a fight in our game. The plan was to have the Hydra erupt out of a river as the players crossed, for a cool fight. When the players were in a nearby town they asked if there were any problems in the area, and so the town guardsman mentioned the hydra. It made sense to me in game, but I immediately realised it had been a mistake. Two of my players immediately went into a deep discussion about spell slots and magic items, that lasted over 20 minutes, planning out in minute detail what each party member would do to trivially destroy the hydra with minimal consumption of resources. Note, they also took agency away from others by planning everything out for maximum optimisation, and the encounter I was excited for (hydras are one of my favourite monsters) became an utterly trivial irrelevance. I was really deflated and didn't enjoy basically an entire hour of gameplay.

And you know, I basically said as much to them when they were planning and was told it wasn't important.


   
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UK

Wow, that much out of character planning wouldn't fly at all in my games! At most I'll allow my players a minute or two to cook up a general strategy, but the moment it got into turn-by-turn stuff, especially based in info their PCs just don't have about an encounter they know naff-all about, I'll call a stop to it and move things on in-game. 100% agree with everything else you said, the DM definitely has the right to as much fun as everyone else, even if part of their role is to ensure everyone else has a good time. The two sides are not mutually exclusive.

Possibly a little more controversial on a similar note, when it's clear the DM has prepped a certain area or encounter, know that you're going to get a better game if you take the hint and engage with that. If the DM keeps dropping hints that there's something going on in Town A but you stubbornly insist of going to Town B mid session, you're going to get a hastily improvised set of characters and plot threads and locations rather than what the DM has spent the last week painstakingly getting ready and fleshing out with detail. Yes, DMs absolutely should be able to improvise, but nine times out of ten the prepped session beats the made-up-on-the-spot one.

This goes double for a maps and minis game. To take your Hydra example, the players know full well that you'll have put the effort into painting and setting up that encounter to be as cool as you can make it, and on that level at least should be looking forward to that spectacle, not trying to rush past or through and turn your hours of work into an unfun three-turn smackdown and move on. And like I said previously, when the DM has obviously prepped a set piece like that for you if you go that way, just go that way! Do you want an awesome battle with a bespoke map and an epic mini, or do you want to avoid it but end up in a randomly rolled encounter with paper chits for monsters on plain grid paper ts because the DM has had to pull this battle of of thin air so something actually happens this session?

In the interests of fairness, I should point out that any ire I might seem to have about this stuff comes from only a couple of players who've come and gone from my group over the years who took a very 'Player vs DM' attitude and actively set out to undermine what me and the more cooperative players were building. The majority of my group, and the ones I will be playing with for years to come, I trust implicitly to work as both players and DMs to build a better game together, and this sort of concern just isn't even an issue there. We wrapped our campaign last week with a PC death in the final moments and four grown men crying over the internet together, and it was perfect. The point being that so much gets said about problem players, and not nearly enough praise gets heaped on the fantastic ones whose commitment to the game, cooperation with everyone at the table and desire to make sure we all have a good time make then a joy to run for. So if you want to help out your DM, those three things are an excellent starting point!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/26 11:57:04


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Nuremberg

Well, they knew the Hydra attacked at the bridge and roughly what a Hydra was, so the planning was not really out of character as such. It's just that these players do this for every single encounter they have information about beforehand to the point that the game slows to an absolute crawl, and they are trying to quarterback the other players for maximum optimisation. I would say this doesn't even have to be out of character for them, it's just a really annoying trait. I actually did tell them that they were taking too long and needed to hurry up, but they both snapped back hard against that and I didn't have the energy or desire for confrontation to manage their behaviour given we are all grown adults (and I am a teacher and spend my entire day managing behaviour, so I don't want to do it in my off time).

It's kind of knowing when enough is enough, and paying attention to the mood and aspect of the other people at the table, having enough social awareness to know you've got to step back from what you are doing and let it move on. I'll admit, I have a particular problem in my group as I've mentioned many times here before, I rarely had problems like this with my previous groups to be honest.

Agree with you about picking up what the DM is throwing down. I'm a big proponent of player agency, and I will absolutely try to accommodate whatever goal the players choose to follow. What I find though is that I will get them to commit to a goal and then next session they will change their minds and want to go another way. Sometimes it honestly feels as you say, adversarial, trying to see what will happen if they suddenly swerve.

Unfortunately for various reasons it is difficult to dump this group without causing a bunch of fuss due to how the group is formed.

Oh, actually, yeah. Here's a big one. If you are a player in a game, DO NOT invite other people to the game without checking with the DM first. This is a major reason for all of these problems in my own game, I did not invite certain people but others did, and because it is happening in a particular environment I was not really able to say no. It's not good manners to do that!

   
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MN

Something else that I think players can really do to help the DM is to reward other players for the "right kind of behavior" for the table.

For example, if a player's turn comes up and they know exactly what they are going to do and just do it. The other players should acknowledge it and say, "Nice job", 'Well played" or something like that.

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Legendary Master of the Chapter





UK

Another one that springs to mind is that when you've got an established group but a person stepping up to DM that hasn't before, you can probably find it in yourself to go easy on them a little with what you bring to the table. Sure, you might be the kind of player that loves leaning into weird spells and feats, or broken multiclass or race combos, or a bizarre character trait, but maybe save that for the DM that's been around the block, and roll up something a little simpler and more traditional for the newbie. If you're hoping that player will become a regular DM down the line, that first session has to go well enough to get them hooked on it. and that's probably not going to happen with you playing a mute pacifict Warforged Bard/Ranger with a playtest subclass who somehow has AC27 and moves 250ft a turn.


Similarly, if you're an experienced DM in a new DM's game. gove them advice if they ask but if they don't, don't. As my group all run games at times. we'll sometimes have a 'Council Of DMs' moment where we all throw our tuppence in on a rare rule interaction or such and reach a consensus, but only when the current sitting DM instigates it. Every other time, those discussions wait until after the game if they come up at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/26 19:16:40


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Nuremberg

Yeah, that's definitely a big factor. You need to be supportive of new DMs.

   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Make a character that is appropriate to the world, the story, and the party.
https://theangrygm.com/through-a-glass-darkly-ic-ooc-and-the-myth-of-playercharacter-seperation/ wrote:Lots of people make a lot out of the separation between player and character. And they have for years. Even the f$&%ing rulebooks themselves have seen fit to devote page space to making it clear that the players are not the characters. The player – they say – is not the character. Don’t confuse the two.

In the old days, this warning amount to nothing more than saying “just because Alice’s character is a dick to Bob’s character, that doesn’t mean Bob should personally take it out on Alice.” Basically, it was sort of an “a$&hole player protectionism.” It protected the sorts of morons who hid behind statements like “I’m just role-playing my character” or “I’m just playing my alignment” or “sorry, but my character would totally stab you and take your stuff, but WE’RE still friends.” But no one really ever bought that anyway. After all, Alice CHOSE to create a complete a$&hat of a character in a team-based game wherein four other people also wanted to, you know, have a good time. So, no, Alice doesn’t get off the hook because Alyss the Rogue is somehow separate from her.

If your character will be a detriment to the game, you are making a bad character. "Perfectly" roleplaying TeamKiller McJerkface does note excuse your from having chosen to inflict said team killing jerk character on your fellow players.
   
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Create a character with motivations and needs, who wants to get in trouble. Not someone who has to be coerced into taking part in the story, sitting passively in a tavern waiting for a hooded individual to turn up.

With good characters like this it's players who are the driving force for the story, actively seeking to fulfill their personal objectives. Oftentimes GM doesn't really need to have any scenario in such a case because the characters aren't waiting for things to happen to them! GM just needs proper setting for the characters to perform their antics.
   
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MN

Sometimes, the players can actually create their own hooks and reasons for a group to stay together (or why some players were absent for a bit) instead of the DM/GM having to do all the flippin' work.

For example, my wife and I had to bow out of a game for a couple sessions due to a scheduling conflict. We asked the GM if it was OK if our character's would go off with a couple NPCs and investigate something that was a potential path forward for the group, while everyone else continued on the thread we were on it. When we returned, this allowed the DM space to close that open thread path without actually wasting time on it "in game" and a reason for our character's absence. The GM did not have to cover for us being out or do any extra work.

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I feel like almost all advice threads like this are in a completely different universe to all the problems people run into.

Every story I hear or bad experience I have with an rpg is just so utterly BONKERS beyond the pale wackiness that I can't come close to a constructive response.

It's bizarre. I've played with people who I think are perfectly normal, functional human beings, and who as soon as they get into the game become a perfect example of some bizarre DnD stereotype. Most recently a perfectly lovely, reasonable person entered into the game and basically became the perfect textbook "Chaotic Stupid" rogue when they got into game. Interjecting random conversations the party is having with NPCs with "I STAB HIM", stealing and smashing random things seemingly just to break laws, responding to puzzles and traps by just immediately triggering them on purpose, the whole works.

We kicked them out after one session, and everyone in the group was basically just like "What the hell? You'd never act like this in person with any of us. Why would you think this was a good character for this game?" and they just...didn't know. It was just something about playing a game where you could do *anything*, and in their head they were going for a character like Jack Sparrow or Loki, but just ended up creating an donkey-cave that no reasonable person would ever keep around.

Every proactive advice thread is always like "make sure you share the spotlight!" and "Think about your turn" and every problem thread is like "Hey so my DM imprisoned all our characters and made us roleplay sexual torture" and "my player keeps getting up and peeing all over the table - how can I subtly discourage this behavior?"

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Nuremberg

Hahahaha! Yeah, it can be like that.
I've got a group I play with online that I've played with for going on 18 years and we've kinda got our groove down really well by now. But introducing it to new people always throws up some really weird and interesting situations. My in person group has had some behaviour that I find baffling.

I also run for kids a lot, and I see a lot of murder-hobo behaviour there. But I kinda expect it, and it's much easier to enforce rules for the table as an adult running for kids. When one of the kids runs though, holy hell it's almost always an absolute gakshow.

   
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UK

the_scotsman wrote:
I feel like almost all advice threads like this are in a completely different universe to all the problems people run into.

Every story I hear or bad experience I have with an rpg is just so utterly BONKERS beyond the pale wackiness that I can't come close to a constructive response.

...

Every proactive advice thread is always like "make sure you share the spotlight!" and "Think about your turn" and every problem thread is like "Hey so my DM imprisoned all our characters and made us roleplay sexual torture" and "my player keeps getting up and peeing all over the table - how can I subtly discourage this behavior?"


If I had to guess at a reason for this, the disconnect comes from the fact that no amount of 'advice' can really solve such issues, and in those extreme cases the game just needs to stop until either everyone can start acting like reasonable people or you can cut out the problem players.

Randos on the internet can help with stuff like 'player A keeps hogging the spotlight' or 'I have a player that never engages in combat' or 'The DM gets frustrated when we steamroll encounters' and can make those games more bearable, providing there's enough of a good basis to work from where people are at least mostly working constructively. Mitigating players that aren't quite on the same page as you or the group is not always the most fun thing in the world, but on some level it's largely doable in circumstances where you can't just boot the ones that don't fit. I imagine it's something we've all had to do unless you've been very lucky. I'm thrilled with the group I currently play with, but it's had its share of bad players in the past that we've just had to deal with until eventually they moved on.

Meanwhile, having players or a DM that outright does something that routinely ruins the game, or acts in a completely inappropriate manner at the table is not really something you can work around; either that person needs to go, or if that can't happen, the game needs to stop. You can make a mediocre game good or a good game great with the advice of The Internet, but you can't make something so egregious work in a healthy way no matter how many tips people can offer...


On a related note, I've honestly never really understood how someone could play that horror story murder hobo type that just stabs people mid-conversation, but I do think the idea would come up less frequently if DMs were better equipped to say 'no' when a player does something that disruptive and stupid. I think there's this idea that player agency is a sacred thing that must nevereverever be taken away, but for the sake of preserving a game, I think that's absolutely a situation that warrants the DM saying 'no, you can't just do that while someone else is engaging with the game, because that ruins it for everyone except you. So you can either grow up or you can leave the table.'

If people just want to have the freedom to murder and steal consequence-free, they can go and play Skyrim. A TTRPG is a social experience which relies on everyone there to ensure the fun of everyone else, so either find a group that is all okay with that sort of thing, or leave it behind when you show up for a game.

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Nuremberg

Yeah, I think at that point you need to stop the game and have an awkward conversation with that player about the expected social conventions. If they don't want to go along with that then you're better off calling a halt there and then.

There are usually some social pressures that might prevent that, especially with new groups and so on, but it's the right call if you can do it.

I think internet advice is often quite stark in that way, and doesn't take into account the extra social factors that might result in people tolerating a certain amount of obnoxious behaviour. But in the long run the blunt approach will work out better.

   
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MN

So, players can help the DM by being functional human beings? I think that is my take-away from the last group of posts.


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Northumberland

For me, I think the best thing another player can do for me when I'm DMing is to help out other players. Are they new players? Help get their character involved! Are they a little shy? Talk up their character a little more. I like an experienced player who can take a backseat and help ease the session along. They don't need to take up the spotlight but they are on the same wavelength as the DM and help to craft the story. Doing a little extra work to complete the picture.

One thing I used to do as a player was to big up some of the big reveals that the DM was doing. Extra shock when something scary happened or some plot twist occurred. Especially when I knew the DM had put a lot of effort into a certain story arc. Its just a nice thing to do.

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Yeah the berserk rogue who spends the whole game stealing everything not nailed down is definitely a bad player trope. My last player like that spent the first couple hours of the session doing just that. The players befriend a group of farmers and agree to smoke their mystic herb and participate in a dream battle to save their harvest (cribbed heavily from Tigana). As you might expect, the rogue only pretends to smoke it so he can rob everybody. I asked him if he was going to murder anyone in their sleep, and then told him he could go home while the rest finish the adventure. He just sat there the rest of the night and I didn't have that particular problem with him again. I try to be patient with these players and give them a lot of rope, and solve the problems through social cues. Actually having to kick someone out of the game completely is pretty rare.

So, don't do stuff like that. A lot of it is common sense, but then there are a lot of new players and many of them do initially approach it as a type of live video game.

A few other tips from a "forever DM":

-Other players aren't your adversaries and you should try to get along with them even if you are playing the edgelord loner. Getting along with the rest of the table and enjoying yourself is probably the most helpful thing you could do.

-If you need to cancel, give as much notice of that as you can.

-If your character has special rules not in the basic set of books, bring a copy of them.

-Don't monopolize the treasure (Hunter weapon!) or be a dick if someone else got a better item than you.

-Ask the quiet players what they think when making party decisions.

-Taking (sparse) notes can be very useful, especially in investigative games and regarding paths you didn't take.

-When picking a character, think twice before choosing something with severe limitations. In some of the recent D&D books, you can be a centaur. The centaur can't climb, get in a small boat, turn around in a hallway, and is otherwise a huge inconvenience anywhere but outdoors. Similarly, if you pick a character that specializes in the use of equipment that can't be used indoors (horseman, giant power armor, Knight Rider car, etc), accept that you won't have your gimmick for half or more of the time.

-Again with choosing characters, ask before picking something not in a core book, especially if it is unofficial/optional/playtest material, like an Unearthed Arcana article. If the Dm says no, we can discuss it but don't keep bringing it up or whine about it.

-If you are the type that constantly wants to switch characters, be ok with having more of a supporting role as the other characters get more material desgined specifically for them. Also try not to derail the game with your new character (In the middle of a murder mystery, your guy that can speak to the dead shows up).

-While some level of character optimization is expected, avoid heavy min maxing unless the whole table is doing it.
   
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Yeah, we didn't let them get away with it. What's funny is that we actually have a player who's playing a stereotypical edgelord type character, and is doing it fine because

A) his character has other aspects to his personality, and acts as a team player in situations in which the party needs to get something done rather than sabotaging the group

B) he understands that nobody ever is going to view an edgy anime protagonist character as 'cool' and 99.9% of the time his edginess is played as the over the top joke that it will always be if you choose to make your character act like that.

The first time we found a magic sword, we obviously gave it to his character because he's our melee guy who does big damage, and he declared it a magical purple katana with a mouth just above the handle that talks, and immediately declared that another player at the table got to voice the sword. We did a halloween session where we had to go to a costume party and his character has never taken off his mask, which has led to the exact opposite situation of him being a handsome mysterious rogue whose identity nobody knows, he's immediately recognizable as that one weird dude who always wears a gold-lined domino mask whose full name and general backstory everyone who's heard of him immediately recalls.


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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United States

To players:

Please create a whole character. Not a stick wearing a rogue outfit with a stabby bit.

Where are you from? Why are you traveling? Do you have any hopes or goals, if so is there someone tied to you, past, present, future that might know about your plans? Do they want to help you, or hurt you?

Please stop doing these "My parents are all dead and I have no ties in the world, so I'm a wandering spirit of vengeance" crap backgrounds. I've actually threatened my play group with this. It's so boring, so overdone and provides the players with an excuse to not have any ties to the game world so that they don't have to make decisions about how to affect the world they live in.
   
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 Togusa wrote:
To players:

Please create a whole character. Not a stick wearing a rogue outfit with a stabby bit.

Where are you from? Why are you traveling? Do you have any hopes or goals, if so is there someone tied to you, past, present, future that might know about your plans? Do they want to help you, or hurt you?

Please stop doing these "My parents are all dead and I have no ties in the world, so I'm a wandering spirit of vengeance" crap backgrounds. I've actually threatened my play group with this. It's so boring, so overdone and provides the players with an excuse to not have any ties to the game world so that they don't have to make decisions about how to affect the world they live in.


I often ask my players to create a background framework, rather than fully fleshing everything out 100%. I want general ideas, not hyperspecifics. What's your character been doing in the past X number of years of their life? Come up with a few examples of family members, past colleagues, exes, and past jobs, but bonus points to you if you dont' actually specify WHERE any of that stuff is located, or all those people live, or where they are now, because that means I can have them pop up much more reliably than

"my parents are kyganil and saranieus leafcutter, they're a pair of wood elves who live in a cabin here, in the alderleaf glade in northern illuria, where they have lived for five hundred years. I am the first of my family to leave the glade, I have five brothers and sisters who all live and work there. In these forty pages I will go over their appearances, ages, occupations and biographies in detail..."

"Well, that's great, uh, unfortunately the adventure is taking place over here" *points at other side of map* "where the coast is? Because we all said we were gonna do a pirate adventure, remember?"

I absolutely want people to have interesting stuff their character is there to do and people they know from before the adventure, but I also 100% do not care if you have ANY of that fleshed out. Here are a selection of one-sentence backstories that I would be overjoyed if you came to my table with:

"My character claims to be the bastard child of an elf and human noble families, disowned by both. Whether or not any of that's true, what he's actually been doing for years is basically being a con artist and mooch, roving from town to town trying to get free stuff and lovers by making promises backed up by one or both of his supposed noble names."

"My character is a contract burglar for hire hired on from a local thieves' guild. She's told her family she's working in a mill, they think she's probably working as a prostitute, but she sends money with each of her monthly letters home so they haven't started asking difficult questions yet."

"My character grew up in a roving tribe of Goliaths who followed herds of aurochs. When he became injured during a stampede, they left him behind per the tribe's tradition to fend for himself. Due to a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts of real estate, representative currency, and monogamous marriage, his transition to civilized society has had a rocky start, but he's glad to have found an occupation in adventuring with more of a familiar structure."

The ideal character backstory in my book is that: just a big ol' ball of minimally specified hooks that tells me about how you generally want the world to interact with your character.

Do you want to be a local hero/celebrity who NPCs react to warmly? A rakish scoundrel who runs into debt collectors and spurned lovers at every turn? A feared mercenary who commands quiet respect from grizzled veterans and misplaced idolization from fresh-faced rookies?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
 
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