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hey guys

I was wondering if it was a general rule that all models belonging to super heavy detatchments, aka, titanic models, can fall back, shoot AND charge? Because im playing orks, and both my gargantuan squiggoth and stompas have an ability to fall back and charge, but not fall back and shoot. so i was wondering if this was a generalist rule thats written somewhere?


Furthermore, is it correct that a titanic model can NEVER be out of Line of sight? Because on the terrain part of the small rulebook says something along the lines of, titanic models can never be obscurred. as i understand it, an enemy model can look directly in to a wall yet still shoot through the wall to hit a titan. Even a massive piece of cardbord covering the entire titan, would still not make models unable to hit it?

Beardedragon wrote:
hey guys

I was wondering if it was a general rule that all models belonging to super heavy detatchments, aka, titanic models, can fall back, shoot AND charge? Because im playing orks, and both my gargantuan squiggoth and stompas have an ability to fall back and charge, but not fall back and shoot. so i was wondering if this was a generalist rule thats written somewhere?


Furthermore, is it correct that a titanic model can NEVER be out of Line of sight? Because on the terrain part of the small rulebook says something along the lines of, titanic models can never be obscurred. as i understand it, an enemy model can look directly in to a wall yet still shoot through the wall to hit a titan. Even a massive piece of cardbord covering the entire titan, would still not make models unable to hit it?

1) BRB, page 207, Fall Back. Fall Back and Charge has no generic rule, it needs to be stated on the datasheet.

2) That is incorrect. Firstly, the Obscuring terrain trait works off the number of wounds and the AIRCRAFT keyword, it doesn't interact with TITANIC at all. Secondly, what the Obscuring trait does is block LOS being drawn even if you have physical LOS to the model. If a model is an AIRCRAFT or has 18+ wounds, LOS is resolved as normal and the Obscuring trait doesn't do anything. You still need physical LOS to the target, so if you don't have that you still can't shoot.

Examples:

You have Obscuring terrain between your Lascannon Marine and a Leman Russ Battle tank. The Marine can physically see the Leman Russ Battle Tank though the Obscuring terrain, but because the terrain is Obscuring and the LRBT has less than 18 wounds, the Marine cannot fire.

You have non-Obscuring terrain between your Lascannon Marine and a Leman Russ Battle tank. The Marine cannot physically see the Leman Russ Battle Tank though the non-Obscuring terrain, thus the Marine cannot fire.

You have Obscuring terrain between your Lascannon Marine and an Imperial Knight Errant. The Marine can physically see the Imperial Knight Errant though the Obscuring terrain, but because the Imperial Knight Errant has 18+ wounds, the Marine can fire.

You have Obscuring terrain between your Lascannon Marine and an Imperial Knight Errant. The Marine cannot physically see the Imperial Knight Errant though the Obscuring terrain, thus the Marine cannot fire.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
hey guys

I was wondering if it was a general rule that all models belonging to super heavy detatchments, aka, titanic models, can fall back, shoot AND charge? Because im playing orks, and both my gargantuan squiggoth and stompas have an ability to fall back and charge, but not fall back and shoot. so i was wondering if this was a generalist rule thats written somewhere?


Furthermore, is it correct that a titanic model can NEVER be out of Line of sight? Because on the terrain part of the small rulebook says something along the lines of, titanic models can never be obscurred. as i understand it, an enemy model can look directly in to a wall yet still shoot through the wall to hit a titan. Even a massive piece of cardbord covering the entire titan, would still not make models unable to hit it?

1) BRB, page 207, Fall Back. Fall Back and Charge has no generic rule, it needs to be stated on the datasheet.

2) That is incorrect. Firstly, the Obscuring terrain trait works off the number of wounds and the AIRCRAFT keyword, it doesn't interact with TITANIC at all. Secondly, what the Obscuring trait does is block LOS being drawn even if you have physical LOS to the model. If a model is an AIRCRAFT or has 18+ wounds, LOS is resolved as normal and the Obscuring trait doesn't do anything. You still need physical LOS to the target, so if you don't have that you still can't shoot.

Examples:

You have Obscuring terrain between your Lascannon Marine and a Leman Russ Battle tank. The Marine can physically see the Leman Russ Battle Tank though the Obscuring terrain, but because the terrain is Obscuring and the LRBT has less than 18 wounds, the Marine cannot fire.

You have non-Obscuring terrain between your Lascannon Marine and a Leman Russ Battle tank. The Marine cannot physically see the Leman Russ Battle Tank though the non-Obscuring terrain, thus the Marine cannot fire.

You have Obscuring terrain between your Lascannon Marine and an Imperial Knight Errant. The Marine can physically see the Imperial Knight Errant though the Obscuring terrain, but because the Imperial Knight Errant has 18+ wounds, the Marine can fire.

You have Obscuring terrain between your Lascannon Marine and an Imperial Knight Errant. The Marine cannot physically see the Imperial Knight Errant though the Obscuring terrain, thus the Marine cannot fire.

thanks for your answer. I accidentially got caught up in the titanic keyword thingie when writing the first part that i carried it over to the next part. Because i did read the aircraft and 18+ wounds keyword, and those are the ones i meant. I still find it a bit confusing though, as most obscuring terrain pieces i use are usually things that has no windows, like a large rock or a mountain.

Usually you give a large mountain obscurring so you cant see through it, but does that mean you CAN shoot an 18 wound model? so confusing. Most people say that buildings are obscuring if you try to shoot through them and arent inside of it already, but arent obscuring if a model walks in to the house, which is often considered, "Ruins" which tends to be given obscuring trait. like you have point A and B, and between A and B is a house. Most i meet say you cant shoot through said house from A to B unless you walk in to it, i would assume thats because its given the trait, obscuring?. How does that work for an 18+ wound model standing behind the house then?

Beardedragon wrote:
Usually you give a large mountain obscurring so you cant see through it, but does that mean you CAN shoot an 18 wound model? so confusing. Most people say that buildings are obscuring if you try to shoot through them and arent inside of it already, but arent obscuring if a model walks in to the house, which is often considered, "Ruins" which tends to be given obscuring trait. like you have point A and B, and between A and B is a house. Most i meet say you cant shoot through said house from A to B unless you walk in to it, i would assume thats because its given the trait, obscuring?. How does that work for an 18+ wound model standing behind the house then?

The reason for the Obscuring trait isn't to give it to solid lumps like mountains, it's exactly for things like ruins that have holes in them.

The "Obscuring" trait is literally taken from the ITC mission pack that made ruins block LOS, because in 8th edition rules, Ruins could never block LOS unless they physically did so, due to how the LOS rules work. The Obscuring trait allows for ruins with holes in them to act as LOS blockers in a legitimate way. The fact that units inside Obscuring cover can still be shot at (if they can be seen physically) is to make sure ruins don't become magic boxes that nothing can shoot in or out of.

As for your example, as I said, the 18+ wound model can be shot at as long as you still actually have LOS physically.

Marine (outside of the terrain) ↔ Obscuring Terrain ↔ Knight Errant = Marine can shoot the Knight if it has Physical LOS. Can't shoot if the marine doesn't have physical LOS (the terrain literally blocks LOS in the physical realm).
Marine (outside of the terrain) ↔ Obscuring Terrain ↔ Termagants = Marine cannot shoot the Termagants even if it has Physical LOS, due to the obscuring trait.

See also this extremely high tech diagram:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Usually you give a large mountain obscurring so you cant see through it, but does that mean you CAN shoot an 18 wound model? so confusing. Most people say that buildings are obscuring if you try to shoot through them and arent inside of it already, but arent obscuring if a model walks in to the house, which is often considered, "Ruins" which tends to be given obscuring trait. like you have point A and B, and between A and B is a house. Most i meet say you cant shoot through said house from A to B unless you walk in to it, i would assume thats because its given the trait, obscuring?. How does that work for an 18+ wound model standing behind the house then?

The reason for the Obscuring trait isn't to give it to solid lumps like mountains, it's exactly for things like ruins that have holes in them.

The "Obscuring" trait is literally taken from the ITC mission pack that made ruins block LOS, because in 8th edition rules, Ruins could never block LOS unless they physically did so, due to how the LOS rules work. The Obscuring trait allows for ruins with holes in them to act as LOS blockers in a legitimate way. The fact that units inside Obscuring cover can still be shot at (if they can be seen physically) is to make sure ruins don't become magic boxes that nothing can shoot in or out of.

As for your example, as I said, the 18+ wound model can be shot at as long as you still actually have LOS physically.

Marine (outside of the terrain) ↔ Obscuring Terrain ↔ Knight Errant = Marine can shoot the Knight if it has Physical LOS. Can't shoot if the marine doesn't have physical LOS (the terrain literally blocks LOS in the physical realm).
Marine (outside of the terrain) ↔ Obscuring Terrain ↔ Termagants = Marine cannot shoot the Termagants even if it has Physical LOS, due to the obscuring trait.

See also this extremely high tech diagram:

Spoiler:

but dont all things on the board thats considered terrain need to have a terrain feature?

Beardedragon wrote:
but dont all things on the board thats considered terrain need to have a terrain feature?

All terrain needs to be classified as either Hills, Obstacles, or Area Terrain (with Buildings being actual units with Datasheets). If you want to have a "mountain" like terrain feature, you'd either make it a Hill (to let everything go on top of it) or make it Area Terrain and give it the Unstable Position trait. "Each terrain feature can have one or more terrain traits" is the exact quote, which due to GW's incompetence could be interpreted that each terrain feature MUST have at least 1 trait, given how the word "can" is used in other areas, but overall it's a moot point because you can just give it the "Exposed Position" trait so the terrain has no actual effects.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
but dont all things on the board thats considered terrain need to have a terrain feature?

All terrain needs to be classified as either Hills, Obstacles, or Area Terrain (with Buildings being actual units with Datasheets). If you want to have a "mountain" like terrain feature, you'd either make it a Hill (to let everything go on top of it) or make it Area Terrain and give it the Unstable Position trait. "Each terrain feature can have one or more terrain traits" is the exact quote, which due to GW's incompetence could be interpreted that each terrain feature MUST have at least 1 trait, given how the word "can" is used in other areas, but overall it's a moot point because you can just give it the "Exposed Position" trait so the terrain has no actual effects.

i see. So it would only ever come in to play, if i gave a big forest or so obscuring that my vehicle could somehow stand in. in that case, they would not be obscured? I think i understand now


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
but dont all things on the board thats considered terrain need to have a terrain feature?

All terrain needs to be classified as either Hills, Obstacles, or Area Terrain (with Buildings being actual units with Datasheets). If you want to have a "mountain" like terrain feature, you'd either make it a Hill (to let everything go on top of it) or make it Area Terrain and give it the Unstable Position trait. "Each terrain feature can have one or more terrain traits" is the exact quote, which due to GW's incompetence could be interpreted that each terrain feature MUST have at least 1 trait, given how the word "can" is used in other areas, but overall it's a moot point because you can just give it the "Exposed Position" trait so the terrain has no actual effects.

i see. So it would only ever come in to play, if i gave a big forest or so obscuring that my vehicle could somehow stand in. in that case, they would not be obscured? I think i understand now

wait having written this and sleeping afterwards, ive come to the conclusion that i dont understand it at all regardless. I mean, if a unit sits in an obscurring forest, he would not be obscuring either.

Im so confused. In what scenario would an 18+ wound model actually NOT be obscured?

The traits for terrain are intended to be there to allow you to make the rules more easily fit what you've placed down on the table. Obscuring is generally for if you've got some big piece of terrain like a ruin or a dense forest or something but it has little tiny holes in it that you could, theoretically, draw line of sight through to target stuff behind it. A big huge solid rock or pillar or something doesn't need to have the Obscuring trait because it doesn't have holes.

A vehicle with 18+ wounds would not be obscured if it was behind, but not touching, a piece of terrain that had the Obscuring trait but had holes in it such that models could draw line of sight to the target model through it.