Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

We've all heard it; Starcraft was originally a 40k licensed game, Starcraft ripped of 40k, Starcraft was inspired by 40k, etc. But it's just an urban legend (for reference, it was Warcraft which was potentially going to be a Warhammer Fantasy game). I would ask the question of why the idea is so pervasive, but it basically comes down to one thing:

Starcraft Marines superficially resemble Space Marines.

That's it. That's the basis for the entire idea. I would get if there were other parallels, like the fluff for both units being similar, or other units/armies bearing 40k analogues, but the evidence is just... Nonexistent. Tyranids and Zerg? They are both ant swarms in space with a hive mind, and the similarities end there. Protoss and... Eldar? They are both psychic and that's it. Terrans and the Imperium? Uh...

It isn't so much the idea that I find tiresome, it is how convinced so many people are that it is true based on next to no evidence. Anyone else with me?

Nope. It doesn't come up often and the overlaps _are_ obvious.

Its a weird thing to be randomly complaining about with no apparent reason.

The recent Raptor video on YouTube brought it to mind.

And what overlaps? There are less between 40k and SC than there were between WHFB and Warcraft but people rarely pick up on the latter even though there actually WAS a connection. There's overlap between settings all the time, that's essentially what tropes are, but it doesn't lead to automatic association. It's really just the superficial Marines comparison.

Tired of it? Until this thread I hadn't heard anyone make the comparison in years. Even back then it wasn't something I put much thought into. So I guess, no, I'm not tired of it.

Don’t see the relevance. Starcraft is quite old and only really relevant in the E-sports scene. That said my takeaway is that it was heavily inspired. Terran as marines/guard. Protoss as eldar. The overlaps are that they’re both all psionic, ancient, round sleek designs and that dragoons are basically wraithguard lorewise... I do honestly prefer the Protoss design (from SC1 obviously) over the eldar design. I guess the big one is that zerg and tyranids are strikingly similar. Yeah there are differences but also an undeniable overlap. Kind of curious why you figured that this’d be a worthily topic in 2021 though. No offense intended.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The recent Raptor video on YouTube brought it to mind.

And what overlaps? There are less between 40k and SC than there were between WHFB and Warcraft but people rarely pick up on the latter even though there actually WAS a connection. There's overlap between settings all the time, that's essentially what tropes are, but it doesn't lead to automatic association. It's really just the superficial Marines comparison.

People pointed out that Warcraft was WHFB all the time back in the day, because people who played Warcraft and didn't know about WHFB often assumed WHFB was copying Warcraft. Often the comparison is made hand in hand with Starcraft/40k because they're both Blizzard games.

Again it's not a comparison I've heard made in years because Warcraft isn't as relevant as it once was.

I feel like you're trying to start a discussion that's about a decade late to the party

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The recent Raptor video on YouTube brought it to mind.

And what overlaps? .

The ones you specifically took time to mention then randomly denied they were overlaps? And then Nerak brought up again because they are?

And yeah, as AllSeeingSkink said, the Warcraft comparison was very common. Its just that no one particularly cares any more, largely because the warcraft RTS is rather dead, with the crappy reboot doing a lot to bury it.

Voss wrote:
Nope. It doesn't come up often and the overlaps _are_ obvious.

Its a weird thing to be randomly complaining about with no apparent reason.

Yeah. I've seen this argument before. It's like 20 years old now. At least. I think I'm more tired of this issue being dragged up out of nowhere than I am of the comparisons themselves XD

My apologies, I did not realize 40k had a uniquely strong claim to "biological race" and "psychic race" thus the confusion. Here I thought those tropes weren't exclusive to sci-fi, let alone 40k! How wrong I was. And hey, YOU all haven't heard the comparison, so I must not have either! I'll just leave it be, thanks guys, great discussion.

As someone who's old enough to remember The Lost Vikings (dafuq) and Blackthorne (clear ripoff of Flashback), my opinion of Blizzard entertainment was, and still is, that they aren't terribly innovative when it comes to world building. Most of everything they've done seems like a mashup from existing scifi/fantasy brands.

I dont really care where warcraft/starcraft came from. weak franchise. And no wonder, considering how many times the company ownership has changed

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
My apologies, I did not realize 40k had a uniquely strong claim to "biological race" and "psychic race" thus the confusion. Here I thought those tropes weren't exclusive to sci-fi, let alone 40k! How wrong I was. And hey, YOU all haven't heard the comparison, so I must not have either! I'll just leave it be, thanks guys, great discussion.

Oh we've heard it, I remember discussing it with mates back in the late 90's I just haven't heard it in years because the games aren't terribly relevant any more.

It's hard not to think about Tyranids when you watch the Zerg overview video from 10 years ago, and likewise (though less so) with the Protoss one. There's obviously differences, but the similarities are also blindingly obvious.

But if you think StarCraft is particularly unique as to warrant starting a thread, that's cool, I'm sure 14 year old me from the late 90's would really care

Blizzard copies from a lot of different sources. That doesn't excuse GW however...

Yeah, I remember opening an issue of White Dwarf, seeing new (to me, at least; they might have been around for a while before I saw them) Tyranid Warriors, and thinking, "Hey, they changed them to look like Hydralisks now."

But afaik, no one talks about possible similarities between the two franchises anymore. Blizzard's big game is World of Warcraft. They've got some other franchises, but WoW is the big one that's the most important to the company.

They've got some other franchises, but WoW is the big one that's the most important to the company.

I'm not so sure about that. The WoW team is surprisingly small now, and the expansions are getting more and more lackluster. Its reliable income, but they sure aren't putting it back into the game.

More than anything they seem fixated on recycling. WC3, Diablo2, WoW Classic, etc.

Overwatch 2 and Diablo 4 are slowly lurching toward release, but hopefully they've got something big going behind the scenes, because it feels like they've lost the plot.

I thought people only brought it up in a sort of "Wow, GW really dropped the ball by letting that contract lip through their fingers" sort of way. More than anything pointing out how GW screwed up more than any IP infringement on starcraft's part.

cody.d. wrote:
I thought people only brought it up in a sort of "Wow, GW really dropped the ball by letting that contract lip through their fingers" sort of way. More than anything pointing out how GW screwed up more than any IP infringement on starcraft's part.

Blizzard would later go on to make the debatably biggest IP screw up in the history of video games so I guess it all comes full circle. I'm of course talking about DOTA that they where unable to tie to their brand. That's what lead to their much tougher policy for WC 3 reforged. All mods/scenario editor maps would be the property of blizzard was their policy. Guess it doesn't matter much tough since WC 3 reforged failed so spectacularly.

cody.d. wrote:
I thought people only brought it up in a sort of "Wow, GW really dropped the ball by letting that contract lip through their fingers" sort of way. More than anything pointing out how GW screwed up more than any IP infringement on starcraft's part.

Yeah. . . this is generally how I saw it, back when I saw this argument a lot. . . The urban legend being much much more in vein of how the "craft" games were once upon a time licensed GW games, and there was a mutual falling out, but the games had been developed so, they rebranded many things so as not to infringe on any of the other's IP, and that was that.

 Nerak wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I thought people only brought it up in a sort of "Wow, GW really dropped the ball by letting that contract lip through their fingers" sort of way. More than anything pointing out how GW screwed up more than any IP infringement on starcraft's part.

Blizzard would later go on to make the debatably biggest IP screw up in the history of video games so I guess it all comes full circle. I'm of course talking about DOTA that they where unable to tie to their brand. That's what lead to their much tougher policy for WC 3 reforged. All mods/scenario editor maps would be the property of blizzard was their policy. Guess it doesn't matter much tough since WC 3 reforged failed so spectacularly.

They also implemented it for SC2 as well if I remember correctly. Not that there was much of a heavy modding scene there from what I remember.

I think the Starcraft comparison gets made more than the Warcraft comparison simply because Warhammer Fantasy was a lot more of a generic fantasy setting. If you're familiar with it, the comparisons are obvious but if you're not, it's very easy to assume orks and goblins and dwarves and elves and humans in vaguely medieval Europish world with wizards are just independent decedents of DnD/Tolkien. 40K/Starcraft's similarities are a lot harder to overlook from the outside, simply because there's less out there like them.

 tauist wrote:
As someone who's old enough to remember The Lost Vikings (dafuq) and Blackthorne (clear ripoff of Flashback), my opinion of Blizzard entertainment was, and still is, that they aren't terribly innovative when it comes to world building. Most of everything they've done seems like a mashup from existing scifi/fantasy brands.

I dont really care where warcraft/starcraft came from. weak franchise. And no wonder, considering how many times the company ownership has changed

Oh I absolutely agree. What Blizzard does is polish games until they shine. Compare Starcraft to Command and Conquer, or World of warcraft to any of it's contemporaries. Blizzard puts out games that are pretty and smooth- sometimes they're innovative, but they'd rather take an existing rough but cool idea, and refine it.

They do really amazing animated shorts. And then the gameplay and worldbuilding around them falls short (or tells a different story entirely).

What year is this? Am I taking crazy pills?

At this point, in 2021, there's...a lot of overlap between them. They're different settings yes, but they rely on many of the same tropes, visuals, themes, and sources. Some of the same hands that have shaped 40k stuff have had a hand at Blizzard and vice versa, especially in the videogame world, hell Andy Chambers was Creative Director on SCII stuff for a while. It's not just one-way either. GW's Tyranids are visually distinctly more Zerg-ey today than their initial Geiger-esque incarnations pre-Starcraft for instance.

Does that mean one is a ripoff of the other? No, but I don't think it's unfair to argue that SC would probably not exist without 40k, and 40k today would be a very different thing without SC's existence. It's also by no means just about Marines.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
We've all heard it; Starcraft was originally a 40k licensed game, Starcraft ripped of 40k, Starcraft was inspired by 40k, etc. But it's just an urban legend (for reference, it was Warcraft which was potentially going to be a Warhammer Fantasy game). I would ask the question of why the idea is so pervasive, but it basically comes down to one thing:

Starcraft Marines superficially resemble Space Marines.

That's it. That's the basis for the entire idea. I would get if there were other parallels, like the fluff for both units being similar, or other units/armies bearing 40k analogues, but the evidence is just... Nonexistent. Tyranids and Zerg? They are both ant swarms in space with a hive mind, and the similarities end there. Protoss and... Eldar? They are both psychic and that's it. Terrans and the Imperium? Uh...

It isn't so much the idea that I find tiresome, it is how convinced so many people are that it is true based on next to no evidence. Anyone else with me?

You complaining about that is literally the first time I've seen that being brought up in like... 3 years? Starcraft is pretty much a non-entity outside its slooooowly dwindling community.

 LunarSol wrote:
I think the Starcraft comparison gets made more than the Warcraft comparison simply because Warhammer Fantasy was a lot more of a generic fantasy setting. If you're familiar with it, the comparisons are obvious but if you're not, it's very easy to assume orks and goblins and dwarves and elves and humans in vaguely medieval Europish world with wizards are just independent decedents of DnD/Tolkien. 40K/Starcraft's similarities are a lot harder to overlook from the outside, simply because there's less out there like them.

I really think if you take the last 27 years or so, people have made the Warcraft comparison just as much as the Starcraft comparison.

But neither game is all that mainstream these days. Even if WoW still has a lot of subscribers, it's not really a thing that people talk about in day to day life any more.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I think the Starcraft comparison gets made more than the Warcraft comparison simply because Warhammer Fantasy was a lot more of a generic fantasy setting. If you're familiar with it, the comparisons are obvious but if you're not, it's very easy to assume orks and goblins and dwarves and elves and humans in vaguely medieval Europish world with wizards are just independent decedents of DnD/Tolkien. 40K/Starcraft's similarities are a lot harder to overlook from the outside, simply because there's less out there like them.

I really think if you take the last 27 years or so, people have made the Warcraft comparison just as much as the Starcraft comparison.

But neither game is all that mainstream these days. Even if WoW still has a lot of subscribers, it's not really a thing that people talk about in day to day life any more.

This will always be the gold standard for me:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
We've all heard it; Starcraft was originally a 40k licensed game, Starcraft ripped of 40k, Starcraft was inspired by 40k, etc. But it's just an urban legend (for reference, it was Warcraft which was potentially going to be a Warhammer Fantasy game). I would ask the question of why the idea is so pervasive, but it basically comes down to one thing:

Starcraft Marines superficially resemble Space Marines.

That's it. That's the basis for the entire idea. I would get if there were other parallels, like the fluff for both units being similar, or other units/armies bearing 40k analogues, but the evidence is just... Nonexistent. Tyranids and Zerg? They are both ant swarms in space with a hive mind, and the similarities end there. Protoss and... Eldar? They are both psychic and that's it. Terrans and the Imperium? Uh...

It isn't so much the idea that I find tiresome, it is how convinced so many people are that it is true based on next to no evidence. Anyone else with me?

Its pervasive because its true. Blizzard was in fact in the works with GW to make Warhammer games. The deal fell through. Blizzard salvaged the assets to make Starcraft and Warcraft. No, there is no technical copyright infringement.

The evidence is actually overwhelming that Starcraft and Warcraft were ripped from Warhammer, so you complaining about it makes no sense. Its not just Starcraft Marines resemble Space Marines. Its that everything in the games resembles something from Warhammer AND they built these IPs after a deal to make games with Games Workshop fell through. They changed just enough to avoid copyright infringement. Not difficult because frankly early GW had very little actual copyrightable stuff as it was. Even the word Space Marine is only loosely held as a trademark by GW.

This is actually why GW changed the names of most of their factions in the last 5 years. They couldn't hold the rights to Imperial Guard, Eldar, etc... Which is why you now have Craftworld, Ynnari, Drukhari, Astra Militarum, etc... For Fantasy, they changed Orcs to Orruks, Ogres to Ogors, etc...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Which is why you now have Craftworld, Ynnari, Drukhari, Astra Militarum, etc... For Fantasy, they changed Orcs to Orruks, Ogres to Ogors, etc...

How can you not mention the most glorious name to ever come out of GW?

FyreSlayers.

Dear god it hurts just to spell it XD

 Grey Templar wrote:
The evidence is actually overwhelming that Starcraft and Warcraft were ripped from Warhammer, so you complaining about it makes no sense. Its not just Starcraft Marines resemble Space Marines. Its that everything in the games resembles something from Warhammer AND they built these IPs after a deal to make games with Games Workshop fell through. They changed just enough to avoid copyright infringement.

Your proposed timeline doesn't track out - development on Starcraft wasn't started until after Warcraft was finished and published, which would have been after any arrangement with GW had already fallen through.

No. it is.