Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is a custom trait for DE Covens. The "All Consuming" means you don't get to pick two. It basically turns guns into overcharged plasma style rules. This originally existed in BotP and is mostly the same.



Seems all well and good considering you lose other traits, but then enter the "new and improved" Liquifier Gun -

https://imgur.com/LPC7BcB

You will see them on T5 6++/5+++ Wracks and there is a twin-version for Talos. This weapon ignores all the downsides of this obsession and can be taken in fairly sizable numbers.

So, is this a goof in need of an FAQ? Or does the short range of this gun and the presence of DG make it less relevant? Is the sacrifice of other obsessions a balancing factor? Are Wracks soft enough to get taken out easily by D2 weapons?

Let's hear your thoughts.

Going out on a limb here because the dex isn't in my hand yet, but if I recall, Liquifiers are only for Coven units.

That being the case (if in fact it is the case), the negative to the trait still affects all Kabal, Cult and Mercenary units in your army.

Of course, since you can choose not to use the obsession, you can protect Kabals, Cults and Mercs from the negative, but only by not claiming the bonus, in which case you're dealing with a huge opportunity cost.

PenitentJake wrote:
Going out on a limb here because the dex isn't in my hand yet, but if I recall, Liquifiers are only for Coven units.

That being the case (if in fact it is the case), the negative to the trait still affects all Kabal, Cult and Mercenary units in your army.

Of course, since you can choose not to use the obsession, you can protect Kabals, Cults and Mercs from the negative, but only by not claiming the bonus, in which case you're dealing with a huge opportunity cost.

It allows you to pick and choose which weapons are affected each time you shoot so there is no downside unless you opt in. This obsession would likely be it's own detachment of just haemonculi, wracks, and talos though.

Obviously there are no specific rules for enhanced liquifiers in place, but older rules that had the plasma effect on weapons that did not roll a hit roll still had to roll 1 die to see if they overheated every time they shot.


It still makes them good, but at least theres a 16.5% chance you kill your own model.

It is indeed hot and spicy but toasting troops in assorted unpleasant ways is something the Dark Kin could always do, this is just the marine bbq version

I think Wracks are limited to 2 per squad, Grotesques can have full squads but I think have to give up some melee prowess

Id hope if it is a touch too much it gets fixed by upping the cost of the guns rather than nerfing an already (correctly) watered down trait

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Obviously there are no specific rules for enhanced liquifiers in place, but older rules that had the plasma effect on weapons that did not roll a hit roll still had to roll 1 die to see if they overheated every time they shot.


It still makes them good, but at least theres a 16.5% chance you kill your own model.

The thing is though theres not with liquifiers. You dont make a roll to hit with them, they cant roll a 1.

Ultimately I think if meq stay in the meta DT is likelt to get an event win or two but its not what im most hyped for in covens, its just kind of a one note your wracks are super stronk thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Turnip Jedi is also correct: wracks give up their ap-2 d2 melee weapon and pay 5 extra points to have a liquifier. Theyre 10pts for wracks but wracks are better with them.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
It is indeed hot and spicy but toasting troops in assorted unpleasant ways is something the Dark Kin could always do, this is just the marine bbq version

I think Wracks are limited to 2 per squad, Grotesques can have full squads but I think have to give up some melee prowess

Id hope if it is a touch too much it gets fixed by upping the cost of the guns rather than nerfing an already (correctly) watered down trait

I agree. That said, when Dark Technomancers first came out in PA, it was IMO ruinous to the internal balance of the Drukhari codex.

It's notable in these early days of the new codex how many lists are coming up where it's just an attempt to cram in as many Dark Technomancer units with Liquifiers as possible. Its not a good sign, but everyone is still feeling their way around, so it may not be an issue.

I think upon seeing A Strong Thing in any given codex the first reaction is always "what if I cram the maximum quantity of this into a 2k list?"

the_scotsman wrote:
I think upon seeing A Strong Thing in any given codex the first reaction is always "what if I cram the maximum quantity of this into a 2k list?"

Yup that's certainly possible....I blame the bits resellers

Well, and also that new codex "I own none of these models but am having a bit of a manic moment" tendency.

Realistically what you'd end uo with is a hyper skew list that dunks on space marines and which cant kill the same thing marine lists struggle to kill - death guard, daemons, harlequins, orks.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, and also that new codex "I own none of these models but am having a bit of a manic moment" tendency.

Realistically what you'd end uo with is a hyper skew list that dunks on space marines and which cant kill the same thing marine lists struggle to kill - death guard, daemons, harlequins, orks.

This.

Even if it would be the strongest trait available (which remains to be seen), as long as non loyalist Marines factions stay meta relevant, I'm not concerned about it becoming the only build for Dark Eldar.

What we have right now is what I'd characterize as a 'predatory meta' or I guess a 'naturally evolved meta'. If you look into discussions of 'perfect imbalance' you see that the concept is, thing A is a little bit stronger, and suppresses things C, D, E, F, G, but thing B is really good against thing A and would suffer if some of those other things were around that thing A is suppressing.

So what you end up with is a meta where thing A is still a large play percentage, and gatekeeps C, D, E, F, G, but the things winning the events are all playing Thing B.

It's kind of similar to towards the end of 7th edition, when 'the eldar list' had been around for so long and been so dominant for so long, that it became kind of uncommon to see a straight up and down version of it topping events. Instead what you got were a parade of various creative solutions to The Eldar List that were really either trying to get a streak of all opponents playing The Eldar List or who were gearing up to be the best possible least at both beating the Eldar and beating the other eldar-beaters.

Liquifier spam Dark Techno definitely beats the HELL out of marines....but I don't know if it beats the rest of the things that beat marines already present in the meta particularly well. What you'd really ideally like to see is the opposite meta, with marines AND all the various factions that marines suppress - your GSC, your guard, your tau, your CWE.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, and also that new codex "I own none of these models but am having a bit of a manic moment" tendency.

Realistically what you'd end uo with is a hyper skew list that dunks on space marines and which cant kill the same thing marine lists struggle to kill - death guard, daemons, harlequins, orks.

It will be interesting to see if DG can stay strong enough to be one of the keystones that prevents over indulgence.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, and also that new codex "I own none of these models but am having a bit of a manic moment" tendency.

Realistically what you'd end uo with is a hyper skew list that dunks on space marines and which cant kill the same thing marine lists struggle to kill - death guard, daemons, harlequins, orks.

It will be interesting to see if DG can stay strong enough to be one of the keystones that prevents over indulgence.

They certainly are just the world's hardest counter to D2 spam. And I feel like that's 100% intentional on gw's part.

I'm in danger of becoming the cliche - I don't own - and am certainly unlikely to buy 50~ wracks (and I guess more liquifier bits if I want them WYSIWYG). I equally don't have 6 Talos with twin liquifiers.

FWIW my proposed list:

1 Drazhar
1 Haemi
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
5 Wracks, Ossefactor/Hexrifle

5 Raiders
2 Talos - Twin liquifiers, Two Heat Lance
2 Talos - Twin liquifiers, Two Heat Lance
2 Talos - Twin liquifiers, Two Heat Lance

Gives you 10 points, so probably buy 2 gauntlets on the Talos. Debatable whether you ditch the 5 wrack unit and scatter perks around.

Anyway! FWIW the scotsman's analysis is exactly the sort of thing I'd usually say - or at least nod and agree with.

But at the same time... analysis is analysis. I didn't expect DT liquifier spam to be a thing a week ago. But looking at it now, it seems you have a fairly flexible and powerful source of damage - which is also comparably difficult to put down. Sure 2 damage is more optimal on Marines than certain armies - but +1 to wound helps in a range of situations. You can go into Orks, Harlequins and Knights and I think you get a decent expected return for your points.

For example take a unit of Deathshroud. Lets say I throw 3 liquifiers on for 110 points. On average thats 10.5 hits. Thats 5.25 wounds. So 2.625 go through. Multiplied up by 50 wounds for 3, thats 43.75 points. For 110 points, thats a 39% return which is reasonable full stop - and better I think than most things. They could have 6+++, but that would equally to anything. Theoretically the Wracks could then charge in and do more damage in assault.

Will it appear in tournaments? I don't know. Its a D6 damage weapon - so i can fully imagine you get some games where you keep getting 1-2 shots, and consequently do nothing. (Equally though, you'll roll hot in others and just destroy people.)

Movementwise the army is fast because almost everything can fly and while there are negatives, from turn 2 you can advance and charge if necessary.

Basically I think it will take some testing - because I think 40k is quite a complex game with lots of factors. But just as I think acolyte hand-flamer spam became the best way to play GSC *because maths said so* I think you could see the same here.

(For similar reasons I'm not sure this is an army to own, like 120~ Acolytes with hand flamers, because GW clearly likely to nerf them as its seemingly an issue if one GSC player got 2nd in a tournament across the whole world.)

DT is only one of the builds of the coven.
The new dex really spoiled them for choices, and most of them are very very good.

the_scotsman wrote:
They certainly are just the world's hardest counter to D2 spam. And I feel like that's 100% intentional on gw's part.

Yea, it feels like there is a plan. I think they'll need another army in that category. Maybe custodes. Thousand Sons could be another candidate for some limiting factor.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, and also that new codex "I own none of these models but am having a bit of a manic moment" tendency.

Realistically what you'd end uo with is a hyper skew list that dunks on space marines and which cant kill the same thing marine lists struggle to kill - death guard, daemons, harlequins, orks.

It will be interesting to see if DG can stay strong enough to be one of the keystones that prevents over indulgence.

They certainly are just the world's hardest counter to D2 spam. And I feel like that's 100% intentional on gw's part.

Agreed, and there's more. Spam D2? Death Guard, dreadnoughts, and anything with 1 or 3 wounds says "thanks". And those 3W Deathwing Terminators don't care about your +1 to wound on your S4 Liquefiers either, or anything else that's S4 and +1 to wound, or anything better than S4, same for most Necron vehicles. Spent lots of points on weapons with high AP? Harlies and Daemons think that's cute. They seem to be trying to make spamming one type of weapon profile a bad idea. And I think that's great.

On topic: Considering some of the other stuff we've gotten in 9th edition codexes I don't think D2 Liquifiers with +1 to wound is that bad. I do find it odd that everyone is worried about them on 1 in 5 Wracks and some Taloi. Spamming them on Grotesques seems worse. Something I'm missing? Just easier to spam the Wracks and Taloi or did Grotesques get somehow less tough in the new codex?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, and also that new codex "I own none of these models but am having a bit of a manic moment" tendency.

Realistically what you'd end uo with is a hyper skew list that dunks on space marines and which cant kill the same thing marine lists struggle to kill - death guard, daemons, harlequins, orks.

It will be interesting to see if DG can stay strong enough to be one of the keystones that prevents over indulgence.

They certainly are just the world's hardest counter to D2 spam. And I feel like that's 100% intentional on gw's part.

Agreed, and there's more. Spam D2? Death Guard, dreadnoughts, and anything with 1 or 3 wounds says "thanks". And those 3W Deathwing Terminators don't care about your +1 to wound on your S4 Liquefiers either, or anything else that's S4 and +1 to wound, or anything better than S4, same for most Necron vehicles. Spent lots of points on weapons with high AP? Harlies and Daemons think that's cute. They seem to be trying to make spamming one type of weapon profile a bad idea. And I think that's great.

On topic: Considering some of the other stuff we've gotten in 9th edition codexes I don't think D2 Liquifiers with +1 to wound is that bad. I do find it odd that everyone is worried about them on 1 in 5 Wracks and some Taloi. Spamming them on Grotesques seems worse. Something I'm missing? Just easier to spam the Wracks and Taloi or did Grotesques get somehow less tough in the new codex?

Grotesqes with liquifiers are 45 points each.

5 man wrack squads with two guns (one per five + one on the sarge) are 60pts.

Much more bang for your buck.

I don't think pure Technomancer liqufier spam is going to be a tournament winning list, but it will probably see play as part of a more varied drukari force.

Covens are really meh in the new book compared to Kabals and Cults, and this particular thing isn't actually strong enough to build an army around, so I think it's fine. If you try to build a skew list around this it might be a funny gimmick army but you'll get run over by any competitive list it doesn't hard counter, which is most of them.

DT Liquifiers are pretty good but bear in mind that you're sacrificing quite a bit to get them.

DT buffs shooting and shooting only. Hence, all those Coven models are not getting any extra protection (like they used to get from PoF and can still get from AoF), nor any melee buffs. Not only that but Grotesques have to give up their best melee weapons in order to access Liquifiers. Talos at least get to keep their fists but a) they also suffer the most from not having extra protection and b) 99% of DE players will want Heat Lances on them instead, which benefit very little from DT and are also far riskier to use it on.

I could be wrong but I honestly don't see it as being an issue in the grand scheme of things.

 vipoid wrote:
Talos at least get to keep their fists but a) they also suffer the most from not having extra protection and b) 99% of DE players will want Heat Lances on them instead, which benefit very little from DT and are also far riskier to use it on.

Gun Talos could be interesting, since you can have twin liquifiers AND heat lances. Just use the dark techno on the liquifiers, since it is optional for each weapon.

Seems to me like there's plenty of targets where +1 to wound and +1 damage on Heat Lances is great.

I feel I'm largely alone digging this vein, but it seems to me like you are doing a lot of damage to most things. It may be you need more dedicated point-assault (I.E. swap out some Wracks for some Incubi or something) but I don't think wracks and Talos are that bad in assault - even if yes, you can buff their melee offence/general defence with other options.

Tyel wrote:
Seems to me like there's plenty of targets where +1 to wound and +1 damage on Heat Lances is great.

I feel I'm largely alone digging this vein, but it seems to me like you are doing a lot of damage to most things. It may be you need more dedicated point-assault (I.E. swap out some Wracks for some Incubi or something) but I don't think wracks and Talos are that bad in assault - even if yes, you can buff their melee offence/general defence with other options.

Defense is the big thing. Talos can be given -1 to all damage or +1 to hit with dark creed.

 Oaka wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Talos at least get to keep their fists but a) they also suffer the most from not having extra protection and b) 99% of DE players will want Heat Lances on them instead, which benefit very little from DT and are also far riskier to use it on.

Gun Talos could be interesting, since you can have twin liquifiers AND heat lances. Just use the dark techno on the liquifiers, since it is optional for each weapon.

I forget. They're bs4, right? Is it worth risking D3 MW?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Oaka wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Talos at least get to keep their fists but a) they also suffer the most from not having extra protection and b) 99% of DE players will want Heat Lances on them instead, which benefit very little from DT and are also far riskier to use it on.

Gun Talos could be interesting, since you can have twin liquifiers AND heat lances. Just use the dark techno on the liquifiers, since it is optional for each weapon.

I forget. They're bs4, right? Is it worth risking D3 MW?

Imo no. Ill be going for dark creed for them getting +1 to hit against most vehicles or artists of flesh for defensive talos.

 vipoid wrote:
DT buffs shooting and shooting only. Hence, all those Coven models are not getting any extra protection (like they used to get from PoF and can still get from AoF), nor any melee buffs. Not only that but Grotesques have to give up their best melee weapons in order to access Liquifiers.

What sort of melee buffs DE have that outweigh gun that can obliterate most melee threats before they do anything in overwatch?

Not to mention the guns provide equivalent protection in melee too, any model you kill does nothing to you and even models blowing themselves up can be used to deny enemy hits or even charge altogether...

mr_stibbons wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, and also that new codex "I own none of these models but am having a bit of a manic moment" tendency.

Realistically what you'd end uo with is a hyper skew list that dunks on space marines and which cant kill the same thing marine lists struggle to kill - death guard, daemons, harlequins, orks.

It will be interesting to see if DG can stay strong enough to be one of the keystones that prevents over indulgence.

They certainly are just the world's hardest counter to D2 spam. And I feel like that's 100% intentional on gw's part.

Agreed, and there's more. Spam D2? Death Guard, dreadnoughts, and anything with 1 or 3 wounds says "thanks". And those 3W Deathwing Terminators don't care about your +1 to wound on your S4 Liquefiers either, or anything else that's S4 and +1 to wound, or anything better than S4, same for most Necron vehicles. Spent lots of points on weapons with high AP? Harlies and Daemons think that's cute. They seem to be trying to make spamming one type of weapon profile a bad idea. And I think that's great.

On topic: Considering some of the other stuff we've gotten in 9th edition codexes I don't think D2 Liquifiers with +1 to wound is that bad. I do find it odd that everyone is worried about them on 1 in 5 Wracks and some Taloi. Spamming them on Grotesques seems worse. Something I'm missing? Just easier to spam the Wracks and Taloi or did Grotesques get somehow less tough in the new codex?

Grotesqes with liquifiers are 45 points each.

5 man wrack squads with two guns (one per five + one on the sarge) are 60pts.

Much more bang for your buck.

I don't think pure Technomancer liqufier spam is going to be a tournament winning list, but it will probably see play as part of a more varied drukari force.

I agree. I'm already looking at running two patrols of DT to have 6 x 5 wracks + 2 liquifiers for 360 points. (+points of transports for mobility and HQ requirements). That's 42 s4 ap-2 dmg2 hits w/+1 to wound for around 1/3rd of my total army cost. Outside of Death Guard, I expect it to kill a considerable amount of points worth of models.

That is about 7 Gravis models dead (potentially around 280 points worth), 360 points worth of Intercessors/first born, or 184 points worth of Daemons - and this is before you consider what the raiders / HQs might contribute.

When facing Death Guard opponents, that's what the rest of my army is for.

As a note, after running these numbers, they don't seem to be any more excessive than what Space Marines are capable of.