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Made in fi
Fresh-Faced New User




Hi,

so where do you count as moved over for planes for example?
Does it count if the planes wingtip flyes over some point or do you only count the base when you check if the model has moved over some point?

Im thinking the new Drukhari voidraven bomber flying over some point and dropping the bomb? it has quite wide wings so do those count or just the base?



Also im a bit confused on can you move and then perform an action?
The last bullet point on actions says you cannot move or do much anything else.
Im just confused because in some youtube battle reports I think people move and then for example deploy scramblers.
Has there been some faq on this or am I understanding it incorrectly (or did they).


Thanks
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Ohris wrote:
Hi,

so where do you count as moved over for planes for example?
Does it count if the planes wingtip flyes over some point or do you only count the base when you check if the model has moved over some point?

Im thinking the new Drukhari voidraven bomber flying over some point and dropping the bomb? it has quite wide wings so do those count or just the base?


Good question. The rules dont go into detail when a bomber has moved over an enemy unit. I would say that the base counts, since its movement, and the base is relevant for movement. So, the base has to move over the enemy unit.

Ohris wrote:

Also im a bit confused on can you move and then perform an action?
The last bullet point on actions says you cannot move or do much anything else.
Im just confused because in some youtube battle reports I think people move and then for example deploy scramblers.
Has there been some faq on this or am I understanding it incorrectly (or did they).


You can move before performing an action.

PERFORMING ACTIONS
Some rules let a unit perform an action; this represents the units doing all manner of things, ranging from raising a banner, arming or dismantling traps, searching an objective site, hacking into a data terminal and so on.

Each action will specify when a unit can start to perform it, when it is completed, and any other conditions that must be satisfied (for example, some actions can only be attempted by units that are at specific locations on the battlefield). You can declare a unit from your army will start to perform an action provided there are no enemy units within Engagement Range of it (excluding AIRCRAFT) and it did not Advance or Fall Back this turn. AIRCRAFT units and units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role cannot perform actions. A unit can only attempt to perform one action per battle round.

If a unit is destroyed, makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, attempts to manifest a psychic power, declares a charge, performs a Heroic Intervention or makes any attacks with ranged weapons after it has started to perform an action but before that action is completed, that action is failed. Otherwise, that action is successfully completed. A CHARACTER unit cannot use any aura abilities while it is performing an action (if the action is failed, their aura abilities immediately take effect again).


DEPLOY SCRAMBLERS

Deploy Scramblers (Action): One INFANTRY unit (excluding CHARACTERS) from your army can start to perform this action at the end of your Movement phase if it is wholly within your deployment zone, wholly within your opponent's deployment zone, or more than 6" from either player’s deployment zone. This action is completed at the end of your turn.
   
Made in fi
Fresh-Faced New User




Thanks... oh yeah that action part seems to be legit... I quess you cant just move after the movement phase with psychic powers or like that.


On the vehicles moving over in last edition I think it was that the wings and other parts count so that is a bit unclear now.
Any other opinions on this or is this stated somewhere on how it actually works. I would like it to be the base since thats pretty clear.

I remember in last edition hearing about discussions on planes parking in front of a unit and dropping bombs on them because the "nose" of the plane went over the unit
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Ohris wrote:
Thanks... oh yeah that action part seems to be legit... I quess you cant just move after the movement phase with psychic powers or like that.


No, you cant.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Did part of the model move over an enemy unit? Then it moved over it. No requirement for it to be base only.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




 JohnnyHell wrote:
Did part of the model move over an enemy unit? Then it moved over it. No requirement for it to be base only.


This is the absolute right of it. You can see in majors when the Ares flies over, it has a pretty wide margin of attack radius. It's any part of the model.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Think of the unit it flew over as if it's a terrain.

I think it suffices to say it moved over a unit if you could have drawn a line that is 1 mm in thickness and it passed over any part of the unit at any part of its (the flyer) movement.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

All of this (including my way) is HIWPI, because there is no rules basis for it. So, talk to your opponent before the game how to handle it.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 p5freak wrote:
All of this (including my way) is HIWPI, because there is no rules basis for it. So, talk to your opponent before the game how to handle it.


There is a rules basis for my argument though.

Point 1 of Movement Phase says:

Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change its position on the battlefield along any path, but no part of the model’s base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models, nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield.


So this tells you what moving over is in one of the earliest bits of the Core Rules. FLY goes on to discuss how that resctriction is avoided in some cases, but this definition remains.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/03 09:08:37


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

But this still doesnt answer when a model has moved over an enemy unit. Is it enough if a tiny bit of the wing barely moved over the base of an enemy model ? Or does the base have to move completely over the base of an enemy model ? Or do you even have to move the entire model over the entire enemy unit ? We dont know.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

That's just being overly specific on your part. A model has moved over an enemy unit when any part of the base (or hull) of the model has moved over any part of the base (or hull) of any model in that enemy unit.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 alextroy wrote:
That's just being overly specific on your part. A model has moved over an enemy unit when any part of the base (or hull) of the model has moved over any part of the base (or hull) of any model in that enemy unit.


Citation please.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




"No part" in the rules quote above. NO part, you qualified, means precisely that.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"No part" in the rules quote above. NO part, you qualified, means precisely that.


We dont know whether moving across means the same as moving over.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Has anyone literally ever seen it played as "Base only" in terms of fly over? Because on several airplanes the base is fractional compared to the entire model.

Anecdotal I know, and I freely admit it, but you may have a point, watchjing a video of a major where someone actually had Whatever the DW airplane is, and they flew it over a "line" and they played it LOS style. I am going to draw an imaginary line, and anything along that 40" line needs to take a MW roll" (paraphasing), but you might be right?
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
"No part" in the rules quote above. NO part, you qualified, means precisely that.


We dont know whether moving across means the same as moving over.
In basic English terms though we do know that moving across means the same as moving over, and since the game does not define moving across or moving over, we fall back on the definitions provided by basic English.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






I know it's not specifically stated, but in this part of the rules it seems that "moving over" is just the "moving across" version for units with Fly keyword. They seem to be more or less interchangeable, so any part of the model passing over would count.

FLYING
If a unit’s datasheet has the FLY keyword, then when it makes a Normal Move, an Advance or it Falls Back, its models can be moved across other models (and their bases) as if they were not there, and they can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models. In addition, any vertical distance up and/or down that they make as part of that move is ignored. However, these models cannot finish their move either on top of another model (or its base) or within Engagement Range of any enemy models.

FLY models can move over other models when they make a Normal Move, an Advance or when they Fall Back.
FLY models ignore vertical distances when they make a Normal Move, an Advance or when they Fall Back.


Do note that this is a quick pull from a Wahapedia sidebar in the movement phase labeled Advanced Rules, so it could be a WD ruling and not part of the official book.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Ok, so move over and across is the same. But what counts as moving over an enemy unit ? I dont think its enough for a tiny bit of the wing to move across the base of a model, by 1mm, and 99% of the flyer didnt actually move over an enemy models base.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
Ok, so move over and across is the same. But what counts as moving over an enemy unit ? I dont think its enough for a tiny bit of the wing to move across the base of a model, by 1mm, and 99% of the flyer didnt actually move over an enemy models base.
Well, standard English would mean that moving over an enemy unit means that any part of the model would move across any part of the enemy model.

If part of something moved across an enemy, then that model moved across the enemy.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Ok, so move over and across is the same. But what counts as moving over an enemy unit ? I dont think its enough for a tiny bit of the wing to move across the base of a model, by 1mm, and 99% of the flyer didnt actually move over an enemy models base.
Well, standard English would mean that moving over an enemy unit means that any part of the model would move across any part of the enemy model.

If part of something moved across an enemy, then that model moved across the enemy.


But the rule doesnt say enemy model. It says enemy unit. The aircraft has to move over the enemy unit. If the enemy unit has 1 model, then its clear. But, a unit can have 20 models. Does this mean the aircraft has to move over all 20 models ? Or only one model ? Over how many models does the aircraft have to move to count as having moved over the enemy unit ? We dont know.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Except we do know. We know a unit is made up of models, so moving across a model out of 100 is moving across the unit. Same as we can say quite happily that the unit has a melt a gun in it, when one model does.

You're tilting at the wind here.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

So, it would be ok with you if my bomber barely moved over the base of one of your models with just the tip of my wing ? Then i have moved over your 20 model unit ?
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 alextroy wrote:
That's just being overly specific on your part. A model has moved over an enemy unit when any part of the base (or hull) of the model has moved over any part of the base (or hull) of any model in that enemy unit.


Exactly this. Asking for anything more is just asking for the writers to eyeroll harder, tbh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
So, it would be ok with you if my bomber barely moved over the base of one of your models with just the tip of my wing ? Then i have moved over your 20 model unit ?


Yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except we do know. We know a unit is made up of models, so moving across a model out of 100 is moving across the unit. Same as we can say quite happily that the unit has a melt a gun in it, when one model does.

You're tilting at the wind here.


Exactly. P5, you’re trying to over complicate and over describe a self-evident thing covered ably by simple English.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/04 11:48:45


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
So, it would be ok with you if my bomber barely moved over the base of one of your models with just the tip of my wing ? Then i have moved over your 20 model unit ?

Yes. Completely. That's what English tells us the term means.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

That is the rules, assuming the bomber has a measure to the hull not base rule.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 alextroy wrote:
That is the rules, assuming the bomber has a measure to the hull not base rule.
What do you mean?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
That is the rules, assuming the bomber has a measure to the hull not base rule.

No measuring is required. It is always the rule.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

If all measurements from a specific model are from the base, then the base must be the part of the model passing over and/or being passed over. So if for some silly reason, a bomber were to not have a "measure from the hull, not the base" then you must have the bomber's base move over the target unit, not just part of its hull.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 alextroy wrote:
If all measurements from a specific model are from the base, then the base must be the part of the model passing over and/or being passed over.
The base is a part of the model, you do not have to pass over the base though.

So if for some silly reason, a bomber were to not have a "measure from the hull, not the base" then you must have the bomber's base move over the target unit, not just part of its hull.
There is absolutely no rules basis for that.

The rules say "moved over" the model must move over the target unit. The model includes the base, but the wigs of a flyer are also a part of the model. If the tip of the wing moves over any part of any enemy model in the unit, you can drop a bomb. (For those flyers that have bomb type rules).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
If all measurements from a specific model are from the base, then the base must be the part of the model passing over and/or being passed over. So if for some silly reason, a bomber were to not have a "measure from the hull, not the base" then you must have the bomber's base move over the target unit, not just part of its hull.

Repeat: no measuring is required. You're told "across" and "over" means ABY PART of the model. This has nothing at all to do with measuring to or from the base or hull, nothing.
   
 
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