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Heya all... How important is the relative difference between a base coat without a primer and a base coat with a primer? My wife just applied a Mephiston red base coat to a khorne berserker but it isn't primer. Especially if the models are varnished afterwards. Also, is it fine to do a separate base coat on different regions of the model?

A *primer* sticks to the model and allows better paint adherence (it is designed to give the paint a better surface to "grab" onto. ) The plastic the figures are made from isn't an ideal paint grabbing surface.

Without a decent primer, the paint can simply rub off.

Base coats are meant to be something to build colour depth off. With highlights/washes/etc.

I almost ruined a grey knights terminators squad using that, so-called, "miniature primer" in spray form. It gave them a very undesirably sandy and grainy texture.

It was probably just re-badged auto primer (which is meant to be sanded-down into shape). But, that was a warning to me to not use canned primer on fine scale minis anymore. (with the exception of medieval fantasy or World War II miniatures, where the primer effect will make the uniforms look more like cloth.)

My best results, for shiny figures, are from using plain old, off the shelf, white spray enamel - as a primer, either flat or semi gloss, about 8-10 inches from the mini in short squirts on a rotating platform (cardboard pizza board) inside my paint box.

The necessity of primer really depends on what material the models are made of.

Metal? Don't even think about skipping the primer. It's not going to end well.
Plastic or Resin? Might be able to get away with it, if the models aren't going to be handled a lot.

In general it's a good idea to use primer no matter what. Just don't overload the model with it. And yes, you can use different base coat colours on different parts of the model. "Base coat" is really just the first layer of non-primer paint that blocks out the area.

 jdouglas wrote:
I almost ruined a grey knights terminators squad using that, so-called, "miniature primer" in spray form. It gave them a very undesirably sandy and grainy texture.

It was probably just re-badged auto primer (which is meant to be sanded-down into shape). But, that was a warning to me to not use canned primer on fine scale minis anymore. (with the exception of medieval fantasy or World War II miniatures, where the primer effect will make the uniforms look more like cloth.)

My best results, for shiny figures, are from using plain old, off the shelf, white spray enamel - as a primer, either flat or semi gloss, about 8-10 inches from the mini in short squirts on a rotating platform (cardboard pizza board) inside my paint box.

I've used Dupli-Color Sandable Primer for years and it has always left a smooth finish. Just because the product is listed as 'sandable' doesn't mean it's going to leave a rough surface on your miniature

I used to paint my minis without primer for years when I started on the hobby and tbh the paint still hasn't rubbed off. So not sure about needing a priner for that. Or perhaps the paints of 80s and 90s were better in that regard?

But you can use significantly thinner basecoats if you use primer.

In my experience the recent range of GW rattle can sprays stick really well to plastic models regardless of whether they're called primer or not. I've got some models here on my desk sprayed with Zandri Dust and Wraithbone over bare plastic and it takes a lot of force to scrape it off with my fingernail.

Other folk have said it doesn't stick well to metal, but it's been so long since I last painted a metal model I wouldn't know.

I've long held the opinion that how a paint behaves is more important than the label on it. I've been thoroughly unimpressed with some paints that are advertised as primers.

I can also report GW sprays do well on plastic/resin for something called just spray paint.

A primer isn't 'required' in the same sense that it is when painting something like a car (especially as most models are no longer made from metal) you can easily paint without primer. I like to use primer as it provides a neutral surface, and simply from habit but it is not an absolute necessity.

I think you should prime because of the technical reasons but also because of your starting colour which affects the rest of your colours. The plastic grey isn’t very good for many colours and to base with acrylic paint so thick that the grey plastic has not effect on the rest of your layer will pros about take a while and start to fill in some of the detail. Also the plastic is glossy

Using black, white or a lighter grey will give you better colours, it also opens up the option for zenithal priming. But mostly it means you can get that first colour down with a really good thin layer and then paint thin layers on top so all the detail of you model will be as visible as it can be. If your painting blood angels use a red primer and the rest of your layer will be really thin and you model should pop with some nice highlights.

I think the effects of not priming are more visible on metal minis.

Priming by airbrush is my favourite way but spray cans are good

 jdouglas wrote:
Oh it does make it rough alright. (I wish I could remember the brand I was using.) I had to scrub the grey knights with a toothbrush in thinner to make them presentable. I may have to try that Dupli-Color one day. But right now I am perfectly happy with using Rust-Oleum spray enamels because it can serves as both a primer and a base coat. The shade of the enamel is dictated by the primary hue that I am shooting for with the army. If Eldar, or loyalist SM I use white, and for Chaos (Raven Guard,or Necron) I typically use darker shades (Maroon or Black).

Maybe it was just the specific brand of primer you were using because I've never once had a problem with the Dupli-Color sandable primer and can paint over it as soon as it's dry.

I find the camo line of paints from Rustoleum are really nice non-primer undercoats.

They are super super flat, come in black, a grey, a few greens, few browns; basically woodland camo colors so are perfect for most primary colors to go over and I've never had issues with "too thick", too fuzzy or whatever.

If I'm lazy I use those; if I have time to dig out the AB and do it that way I use my AB to prime using Stynylrez primers.

mrFickle wrote:
Priming by airbrush is my favourite way but spray cans are good

Personally, I tried a few airbrush primers and in the end went back to rattle cans.

Found that some airbrush primers (like Vallejo) are really weak (tore up when masking), and in the end the only ones I liked were lacquer airbrush primers like the Gunze ones and even then I wouldn't say they were better than rattle can primers, simply as good but with a lot more setup and clean up time + lacquers and lacquer thinners are bad for your health.

So much easier to set up a spray box (or stick if that's your preference) shake up the rattle can, step outside for a few minutes and it's done.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Found that some airbrush primers (like Vallejo) are really weak (tore up when masking), and in the end the only ones I liked were lacquer airbrush primers like the Gunze ones and even then I wouldn't say they were better than rattle can primers, simply as good but with a lot more setup and clean up time + lacquers and lacquer thinners are bad for your health.

IMO you owe it to yourself to try Badger's horrendously named Stynylrez. Goes on unthinned, cleans up with water, cures rock hard. None of the gumminess of Vallejo's primer.

Regarding spray paint, I haven't ever found much practical difference between brands and formulations. If you can find one that provides a smooth (but not glossy) texture and doesn't cake up the details, then you're good to go. I've had occasional bad experiences with 'miniature' primer and hardware store primer alike; nowadays I'd take the latter just for cost if nothing else. Basic Rust-Oleum, Krylon, and Dupli-Color have all done fine with me.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
A primer isn't 'required' in the same sense that it is when painting something like a car (especially as most models are no longer made from metal) you can easily paint without primer. I like to use primer as it provides a neutral surface, and simply from habit but it is not an absolute necessity.

I would be more inclined to say it IS required if you want a stable, non-hydrophobic surface to paint on.

For instance, when 'repairing' paintjobs, the underlayer can wipe off along with the top layer you're erasing if it's not properly primed, as you're relying on the tenuous bond between bare plastic (which is naturally hydrophobic) and water based paint.

If you have sweaty/damp hands and you hold painted area of the miniature (despite the whole paint handle and related accessories, you will need to touch your model one time or another) for a few minutes, the paint can get stuck to your fingers and peel off.

The purpose of primer (as far as our applications go) is to provide a surface that clings on to the plastic better than water based paints can, which then accepts water based paints on top of it. The key is that whatever it is (primer or "primer", or whatever in between and beyond), it needs to cling onto the plastic (or whichever medium you're applying it to).

If you can scratch off the base coat of your choice with your bare finger nails, chances are it's not a good priming agent.

Everything skchsan said is correct, and I want to add on one more detail: The distinction between primer and spray paint is irrelevant on plastic models, where the solvents used as carriers in spray paint are fully capable of etching the plastic to provide a solid bond, so don't get hung up on buying something specifically marked as primer. In many cases, stuff like auto body primer will clog up details as it's designed to fill in minor imperfections in the underlying surface, while spray paint is formulated to go on thinly.

Forge World recommended Halford's spray paint for priming their minis years ago- hardly high-end stuff. Just find a can that goes on smoothly and provides a good surface for painting over, and you're good to go.

 catbarf wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Found that some airbrush primers (like Vallejo) are really weak (tore up when masking), and in the end the only ones I liked were lacquer airbrush primers like the Gunze ones and even then I wouldn't say they were better than rattle can primers, simply as good but with a lot more setup and clean up time + lacquers and lacquer thinners are bad for your health.

IMO you owe it to yourself to try Badger's horrendously named Stynylrez. Goes on unthinned, cleans up with water, cures rock hard. None of the gumminess of Vallejo's primer.

Regarding spray paint, I haven't ever found much practical difference between brands and formulations. If you can find one that provides a smooth (but not glossy) texture and doesn't cake up the details, then you're good to go. I've had occasional bad experiences with 'miniature' primer and hardware store primer alike; nowadays I'd take the latter just for cost if nothing else. Basic Rust-Oleum, Krylon, and Dupli-Color have all done fine with me.

I'll have to give the Badger a go, admittedly haven't tried it.

As for spray can formulations, it's really expensive but Tamiya spray primer is probably my favourite if I'm going to be airbrushing or spray canning on top of it. It self levels incredibly well, sticks well and doesn't clog details even if you accidentally apply too much of it. Downside is it's probably a bit too shiny for most miniature work, which is why I don't like it for hairy brushing straight over it, but I believe the shiny surface is intentional because it's marketed more toward model car and plane hobbyists where getting a perfect surface is half the challenge, which a more rough primer might hide.

If I'm going to be hairy brush painting over it, honestly I'm happy enough with the GW spray paints, they're not cheap but they're also not mind blowingly expensive compared to all my other hobby costs (the 400ml cans go a long way) and I can use a coloured base coat that perfectly matched a paint pot. They've been pretty reliable in recent years, acknowledging that they have changed formulations over the years... my opinion 15 years ago was different.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Regarding spray paint, I haven't ever found much practical difference between brands and formulations. If you can find one that provides a smooth (but not glossy) texture and doesn't cake up the details, then you're good to go. I've had occasional bad experiences with 'miniature' primer and hardware store primer alike; nowadays I'd take the latter just for cost if nothing else. Basic Rust-Oleum, Krylon, and Dupli-Color have all done fine with me.

No, the best advice is shake the cans properly.

The cans will warm up to usable temperature in your hand during the time it takes to properly shake up the contents, which is long enough time for your body temperature to do the work.

In terms of storage, colder is better than warmer as when the contents reach a certain temperature the propellant can leak out due to increase in pressure (P=VT, where P=pressure, V=volume, T=temperature). Cans that have been sitting in warmer settings are more likely to cause the 'spits' due to decreased exit velocity (due to lost pressure). This phenomenon is also prevalent as you're reaching the end of the spray's life when there isn't enough propellant left in the spray to eject the colored priming agent properly.

Still, cool is better than cold.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Priming by airbrush is my favourite way but spray cans are good

Personally, I tried a few airbrush primers and in the end went back to rattle cans.

Found that some airbrush primers (like Vallejo) are really weak (tore up when masking), and in the end the only ones I liked were lacquer airbrush primers like the Gunze ones and even then I wouldn't say they were better than rattle can primers, simply as good but with a lot more setup and clean up time + lacquers and lacquer thinners are bad for your health.

So much easier to set up a spray box (or stick if that's your preference) shake up the rattle can, step outside for a few minutes and it's done.

I find rattle cans aren’t as easy to control but it’s preference. For info, I use the Green stuff world primers and they go on brilliant by air or by hair. I have the Vallejo white primer and it’s so thin that it doesn’t go on by brush but is usable by airbrushing. But I’m not impressed. However it’s thinness is useful for zenithal.

I watched a video on YouTube that said put spray cans in some
Warm water for a few minutes and to read the instructions on the can. When I first used grey seer I almost threw it away but then read that it needs to be shaken for 2 mins. After that I was quite impressed but it needs to be shaken a lot in between sprays.

mrFickle wrote:
When I first used grey seer I almost threw it away but then read that it needs to be shaken for 2 mins. After that I was quite impressed but it needs to be shaken a lot in between sprays.

Yes, after the vigorous initial shake, expect to 'refresh' the mixture after 3-4 sprays.

It would look like: shake shake shake spray spray spray *shake shake shake shake while examining coverage & adjusting angle* spray spray spray *shake shake shake shake while examining coverage & adjusting angle* spray spray spray etc.

https://youtu.be/jkntrSBvXxE
.
An oldie but goodie. Basically if your primer is peeling off you got a bad bottle. End of.

Vallejo if it freezes just wont ever work again. Same with Stynylrez. So if your primer isn't sticking it's probably bad primer.

 skchsan wrote:
The cans will warm up to usable temperature in your hand during the time it takes to properly shake up the contents, which is long enough time for your body temperature to do the work.

It depends how much you're spraying and how cold the weather is. 90% of the time I don't bother prewarming the can.

But, I don't use the heater much in winter, if it's a cold day it could be well below 15C (60F) inside my house and then I go outside where it's even colder, so if the weather is cold I might prewarm the can to bring up to a better working pressure.

Then if I'm spraying a lot, the can gets colder as you spray (liquid to gas expansion of the propellant being an endothermic reaction, it cools the can down) so prewarming can be a good idea.

An old trick for people who have to spray large areas is to keep a bucket of warm water with several cans so as one gets cold, you toss it back in the bucket and grab a warm one. I've never gotten to the point of needing that when spraying miniatures, maybe if you had a few thousand points you wanted spray all at once it might be an idea though


But aside from that, "read the instructions" is a good place to start, they're not necessarily the same for all cans, e.g. some cans like to be held closer, others further away.




It seems like this discussion happens frequently, maybe we need an article we can just link to, the OP didn't even ask about how to use spray cans nonetheless that's where we ended up, haha.

i would always use a primer, but army painter has collored primers that work as a base coller that are great, i have used them for my skaven, but normaly i use a black primer it gives an instand shade in the resesses