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Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan






Austin, Texas.

I have a scanned and printed marine dex I copied from a friend, printed, laminated, and put in a binder. Have a TO who is running his first event raise his eyebrow at that, saying he was not sure if that would be allowed at bigger events. He wants his tournament's proceedings to be based off how larger events would run. So I am asking here to hear your thoughts.

I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine.

"Be aware that the 'I buy models I like, and then discover that they're absolutely useless and I need to toss them and buy something completely different' is a core part of the 40k experience." - AnomanderRake

My hobby blog__ Hell Raised Regiment Three - Link in Bio
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I have a scanned and printed marine dex I copied from a friend, printed, laminated, and put in a binder. Have a TO who is running his first event raise his eyebrow at that, saying he was not sure if that would be allowed at bigger events. He wants his tournament's proceedings to be based off how larger events would run. So I am asking here to hear your thoughts.



As I understand the law in the US (and the same is likely true here in the UK) your "copied from a friend" copy is unlawful and breaks copyright laws.

Even if it is your own copy of the book, I think you'll find it's still unlawful to copy it, even for personal use unless parts of the book state otherwise.

You'll note in a GW codex that there are "can be copied for personal use" pages, or used to be, and on the back (usually) or elsewhere in the codex it specifically states the book is not allowed to be reproduced, copied, etc. etc.

If I were a TO I'd be erring on the side of caution and not allow copies such as you have to be used, to avoid any legal issues further down the line.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/06 00:01:44


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I have a scanned and printed marine dex I copied from a friend, printed, laminated, and put in a binder. Have a TO who is running his first event raise his eyebrow at that, saying he was not sure if that would be allowed at bigger events. He wants his tournament's proceedings to be based off how larger events would run. So I am asking here to hear your thoughts.


One of the objections you really don't have an answer for is: Prove that you haven't edited your copied codex. It wouldn't even matter if you said "I scanned and printed my codex, and left it at home."

It's pretty easy to scan, edit, then print out the book editing things to say what you want them to. So you don't have a valid copy of the book, and most tournaments are going to require you to have a valid copy of the book to play (you'll be asked to show your books when you check in).

Generally, the policy is that each player is responsible for bringing their own copies because if the tournament relied on a shared library of books, games would slow down for the inevitable "Please show me where it says that" moments during the tournament.

   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

Best solution in my opinion is, bring your actual codex also. If you want a binder with just the relevant pages, bring that.

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 Rob Lee wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I have a scanned and printed marine dex I copied from a friend, printed, laminated, and put in a binder. Have a TO who is running his first event raise his eyebrow at that, saying he was not sure if that would be allowed at bigger events. He wants his tournament's proceedings to be based off how larger events would run. So I am asking here to hear your thoughts.



As I understand the law in the US (and the same is likely true here in the UK) your "copied from a friend" copy is unlawful and breaks copyright laws. You aren't then allowed to give those out to friends though.

Even if it is your own copy of the book, I think you'll find it's still unlawful to copy it, even for personal use unless parts of the book state otherwise.

You'll note in a GW codex that there are "can be copied for personal use" pages, or used to be, and on the back (usually) or elsewhere in the codex it specifically states the book is not allowed to be reproduced, copied, etc. etc.

If I were a TO I'd be erring on the side of caution and not allow copies such as you have to be used, to avoid any legal issues further down the line.


You're correct on the "for a friend" thing, but you're allowed to make copies of your own books for your own personal use, or to change format (e.g. make a digital copy of a physical book or a physical print out of a digital book).

Wargaming is one of the areas it makes sense to make a copy for personal use, you might have bought a physical copy of a limited edition or a nice hardback book which is 100 pages with 5 pages of rules in the middle and you don't want to go dragging the book around to gaming events letting it get damaged, or maybe you just like using a tablet instead but GW's digital editions suck hairy balls.

As solkan said, one of the problems is people using it to cheat, but I feel like the massive shame you'd feel for being caught would be a deterrent as many folk have the rules/stats memorised and would call you out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/06 01:34:16


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






The question isn't about whether or not people might cheat or if other players would call you out on it and I'm not sure why that's even being brought up, other than to dodge the real issue...

...which is legal liability as a TO.

Looking at it from the pov of a TO, unless someone brings their codices with them, either as GW's epubs or physical books, I can't tell if a copy is of a book the person owns or not.

So, do I take the risk of having people in my tournament, using copies of books that they don't own, which basically boils down to piracy, or do I insist people not use copies unless they prove they own the originals?

Rhetorical question.

What the OP has described, i.e. the TO raising an eyebrow (as he was right to do) to the OP's scanned/printed copy, of the Marine codex, "copied from a friend", thus presumably the OP doesn't own the original and presumably wasn't/isn't able to produce an original if asked to, boils down to a legality issue for the TO, meaning copyright laws in the TO's country and whether or not they as TO and/or they're tournament's players want to abide by the law.

Shouldn't be any question or doubt over it.


EDITED for spelling and clarity.

This message was edited 34 times. Last update was at 2021/04/06 03:30:18


 
   
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Manhunter





Sticksville, Texas

Like another person said, I would have zero issues with copied pages of the book, with just the relevant pages in a binder... as long as they have the books with them as well.

Even if they just leave them in their backpack next to the table, having them there so the TO and opponent can look at them if they choose to is all I would need.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot








I scan all the relevant info onto a tablet.

I've had hundreds of dollars of rulebooks and codexes lifted off of me at events. I'd rather carry a cheap tablet that is portable enough to throw in a side sack than spend all that money again.

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Executing Exarch





Given that legit hard copies of GW paperwork tend to be out of date due to errata within weeks of purchase, meaning further print outs or e-documents of said corrections are fairly mandatory I'm not sure 'official' copies even have that much merit over otherwise sourced versions, and given errata also tends to get errata its quite the faff to keep fully up to date

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Longtime Dakkanaut




As a TO I'd probably err on the side of "no". Original copies of all rules should always be provided by the players. As others have said, a printout/scan for ease of reference is fine as long as the original is available.

GW's terrible quality checking and editing does make things more difficult though. It's pretty much guaranteed at this point that the original book will have at least one error in its rules or points that requires an FAQ/errata. Requiring the original copy at least allows those FAQs to be used to reference the exact page, paragraph and sentence more easily.
   
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Agile Revenant Titan






Austin, Texas.

Well, was not aware the intensity of legality in regards to TOing. Clearly none of my friends care when we play, but yes I can imagine a larger tournament being more strict about it.


I wonder how many players GW has sued for using a printed/PDF at a tournament. Or how many TOs they have removed for allowing such a rule. I'm guessing not many, but still not a risk TOs want.

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Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine.

"Be aware that the 'I buy models I like, and then discover that they're absolutely useless and I need to toss them and buy something completely different' is a core part of the 40k experience." - AnomanderRake

My hobby blog__ Hell Raised Regiment Three - Link in Bio
 
   
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Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I wonder how many players GW has sued for using a printed/PDF at a tournament. Or how many TOs they have removed for allowing such a rule. I'm guessing not many, but still not a risk TOs want.

I don't know about sued, but it's one of the things that can get a store blacklisted by GW (so they can't buy product direct from them).
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Well, was not aware the intensity of legality in regards to TOing. Clearly none of my friends care when we play, but yes I can imagine a larger tournament being more strict about it.

I wonder how many players GW has sued for using a printed/PDF at a tournament. Or how many TOs they have removed for allowing such a rule. I'm guessing not many, but still not a risk TOs want.



Yeah there's a vast difference to you and your mates getting together and having a "tournament" and an actual organised tournament event, the latter generally being open to the public whilst the former is something you and your buddies do in private.

Surprised Dakka allow such discussions to be honest, seeing as piracy is essentially what is being discussed.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/04/06 16:06:39


 
   
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Crescent City Fl..

Now I am wondering how much of an issue my codex will cause. I have my books cut and the pages with the data sheets and rules laminated and spiral bound. Books I bought and paid for. Would a TO have a fit over that?
I'm not sure I see a difference between that and some one having a digital copy on their phone.

As far as cheating with altered rules, that's been going on for decades with people altering army builder apps to mess around with their printed army lists from those programs. Cheaters gunna cheat.
Having a scanned and printed codex which can be verified if need be by any other player of the same faction shouldn't be an issue.

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Dakka Veteran






 warhead01 wrote:
Now I am wondering how much of an issue my codex will cause. I have my books cut and the pages with the data sheets and rules laminated and spiral bound. Books I bought and paid for. Would a TO have a fit over that?
I'm not sure I see a difference between that and some one having a digital copy on their phone.


"Books I bought and paid for" - there's the key to it - you can produce them (or in your case what is left of them) to prove you own a copy of the books. Having a digital copy on your phone implies you either have bought a physical copy of the book, or you have bought the ebook. Either way you (should) have proof of purchase/proof of licence to use the item.

Copying a codex from "a friend" as the OP states he has, which in most countries is technically unlawful and therefore regarded as piracy, and then rocking up to an organised event, i.e. not just a gathering with your mates in private, without proof of purchase/ownership/licences should get you some raised eyebrows from the organisers at the very least. Otherwise we can all be using pirated codices, I mean, what's the difference, right...


Personally, if I were a club owner, FLGS owner, or anyone organising a proper organised tournament event or even just had one taking place on my premises, not just a "tournament" among my friends circle, I'd be livid if people turned up with copies of books, even just parts of, they can't prove they own/have a licence to use - it's just not worth being a test case in court and ignorance of the law, especially as piracy has been a very widely discussed issue the world over, will only make it worse for such club/business owners.

Bit like Covid. We in the west are in for a storm of litigation as things start opening up more and more. So as a club/business owner, instead of feigning ignorance, unless you're incredibly dumb, you do everything necessary to prevent that potential litigation impacting on you.

This message was edited 47 times. Last update was at 2021/04/06 16:27:56


 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






I'm very curious to know where a lot of you passed the Bar to be able to advise on copyright law and who is or is not complicit.

A lot of these comments about piracy are laughable.

The issue is one of respect, propriety and expectation. None of the nonsense above.

If <person> has done everything expected of them to properly play the game (e.g. purchased book, correct models, etc.) then <person> expects all other participants to do the same, but if other participants do not it is a breach of etiquette.

Imagine if you will... You're invited to a cookout and everyone is asked to bring a food item to share, but someone shows up with only the half eaten bag of chips from their pantry. It highlights that persons lack of caring which is disrespectful to the others and it falls short of the expectation of the conventional requirement of the social behavior.

Coming to a game, organized event or not, with a printed PDF or similar of the needed book(s) is akin to being that person who showed up to the cookout with the half eaten bag of chips.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 oni wrote:
I'm very curious to know where a lot of you passed the Bar to be able to advise on copyright law and who is or is not complicit.


Same place as you did only I'm not using spurious analogies to ignorantly dismiss what could be a serious issue if it ever reaches courts. Copyright issues surrounding what people can and can't do with media/content are frequently reaching the courts and we've seen quite a few landmark cases in recent years. It is something to be very much aware of and not to be dismissed as laughable.


I'll just leave this here, I can't find a similar source for the US at this time, but I highly doubt US law is any different -

https://www.copyrightuser.org/understand/exceptions/private-copying/

Under UK Copyright Law, end users can make ‘personal copies for private use’ of content they ‘lawfully acquired on a permanent basis’. This means that it is lawful to make copies of materials you have purchased, received as a gift or downloaded from legal sources. However, it is not permitted to copy content borrowed from a friend, rented or unlawfully obtained.


Note the highlighted part of that paragraph.

Now, the OP has clearly stated he has copied the Marine codex from "a friend".

Which in UK law is not permitted. I doubt it is under US law either. Please feel free to prove me wrong with another spurious analogy about bags of chips though.

This message was edited 21 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 05:36:05


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Rob Lee wrote:
...which is legal liability as a TO.


But is it? Surely the legal liability would be with the individual using the copied book, not the TO.

Legally speaking, I would have thought it's enough for a person to say to a TO to verbally check that they own a copy, not for them to produce the original. I'm absolutely not a lawyer trying to make legal advice, but it just seems to me that at that point it's not the responsibility of the TO to force the person to produce physical evidence, that sounds like a job for the Popo.

 Rob Lee wrote:
Surprised Dakka allow such discussions to be honest, seeing as piracy is essentially what is being discussed.
Obviously what the OP said is wrong, you shouldn't be copying a friend's book, but I think the discussion agreed to that pretty early on and have shifted to the more general discussion of not using original copies of books, be they print outs or digital scans of a book they already own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 oni wrote:
Coming to a game, organized event or not, with a printed PDF or similar of the needed book(s) is akin to being that person who showed up to the cookout with the half eaten bag of chips.

That is an absurd analogy, it's nothing akin to that at all, it generally takes MORE effort to create print outs or scans of your books, you do it because you don't want to carry around a $100, 100 page book for the sake of a handful of pages of rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/06 17:39:22


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But is it? Surely the legal liability would be with the individual using the copied book, not the TO.

Legally speaking, I would have thought it's enough for a person to say to a TO to verbally check that they own a copy, not for them to produce the original. I'm absolutely not a lawyer trying to make legal advice, but it just seems to me that at that point it's not the responsibility of the TO to force the person to produce physical evidence, that sounds like a job for the Popo.


Would you as a TO, club owner, FLGS owner, or other business owner or even premises owner involved, like to test the idea that you're not responsible in the courts?

I think any sane, intelligent, business person/club owner/tournament event organiser would say no and err on the side of caution, be that through asking for evidence, or a blanket refusal of allowing copies to be used, the latter obviously being the easier route.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Obviously what the OP said is wrong, you shouldn't be copying a friend's book, but I think the discussion agreed to that pretty early on and have shifted to the more general discussion of not using original copies of books, be they print outs or digital scans of a book they already own.


Yeah I get that.

This message was edited 32 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 05:20:24


 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan






Austin, Texas.

Thank you all for replies. I know the law doesn't care, but there never was malicious intent on my end. Just trying to play the game we know and love while being financially limited. (I say this because potato chip analogy would write me off as lazy and bumming off others but I dont feel thats true)

I am in no way encouraging or promoting any illicit behavior. I have made the actions I have and was attempting to discover the repercussions of what I had done.


So, next question. What if I split the payment for a book with a friend. Then, so we each have a copy, scan and print. Does that change anything? Since I have paid money towards said book?

I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine.

"Be aware that the 'I buy models I like, and then discover that they're absolutely useless and I need to toss them and buy something completely different' is a core part of the 40k experience." - AnomanderRake

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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Yeah I know times are tough. Your best bet is to go buy the book for yourself. That way you know you arse is covered. Shared ownership? Doubt that'd hold any water.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 03:53:07


 
   
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[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Rob Lee wrote:

Surprised Dakka allow such discussions to be honest, seeing as piracy is essentially what is being discussed.

There's a line, although it's a hazy one at times.

In this particular case, so long as the discussion remains centered around why it is or isn't a bad idea, and stays away from the usual debates over the morality of stealing something you think is too expensive, or actively sharing pirated copies of the rules, it's likely to remain ok.

 
   
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[MOD]
Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

This thread is full of people who've never played in a tournament, but if they did, would make it miserable for everyone.

Around half of people roll up to the table with just a printed-out Battlescribe list and nothing else, and 90% of the time this is just fine. There's always someone there that has the actual book if you need it, and you can also Google most of the rules if you really need to.

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Exalted Beastlord




That's an interesting take. I've never seen google provide the complete text and context of a rule. I certainly wouldn't trust anyone who pulled that out of their pocket in a key moment during a tournament.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/07 01:51:04


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Illinois

A printed pdf of a codex isnt even on the radar when most events now are absolutely full of 3d printed and recast miniatures. 90% of games wont require looking at any books if you play even semi regularly. To think that an event organizer would somehow be on the hook legally for a photo copied codex or that anyone would care is pretty out of touch.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But is it? Surely the legal liability would be with the individual using the copied book, not the TO.

Legally speaking, I would have thought it's enough for a person to say to a TO to verbally check that they own a copy, not for them to produce the original. I'm absolutely not a lawyer trying to make legal advice, but it just seems to me that at that point it's not the responsibility of the TO to force the person to produce physical evidence, that sounds like a job for the Popo.


Would you as a TO, club owner, FLGS owner, or other business owner or even premises owner involved, like to test the idea that you're not responsible in the courts?

I think any sane, intelligent, business person/club owner/tournament event organiser would say no and err on the side of caution, be that through asking for evidence, or a blanket refusal of allowing copies to be used, the latter obviously being the easier route.


I'd probably give it a go, haha, yeah, I think the risk would be somewhere between tiny and non-existant.

It just seems to me, what is the TO supposed to do? Ban a legal activity because some people might be doing something illegal? It's perfectly legal if they do have a copy sitting on their shelf at home, and it seems logical that the TO's obligations would end at asking people to only bring copies of books they own.

It'd be like if someone came into your store carrying drugs hidden in their pockets, is it your responsibility to pat them down if you suspected them?

Or if you notice someone carrying what looks like a gun in a state where concealed carry is legal, they don't have to show you their permit.

Of course you can throw them out of your store if you don't like what they're doing, but that's a different matter.

There is obligation to report a crime, but there's not an obligation for you to personally investigate crimes.

I think the bigger risk would be if you are somehow affiliated with GW and GW had some rules saying original copies only (and I don't think they do?).


 Lorek wrote:
This thread is full of people who've never played in a tournament, but if they did, would make it miserable for everyone.

Around half of people roll up to the table with just a printed-out Battlescribe list and nothing else, and 90% of the time this is just fine. There's always someone there that has the actual book if you need it, and you can also Google most of the rules if you really need to.


Good to know, the only tournaments I've been to are local affairs and not for many years. The sorts of tournaments where you're lucky if the person even knows the rules for their own army

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/07 06:01:45


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'd probably give it a go, haha, yeah, I think the risk would be somewhere between tiny and non-existant.


Then more fool you.

It just seems to me, what is the TO supposed to do? Ban a legal activity because some people might be doing something illegal?


In a word, yes. It's called covering your arse.


You mention store owners and gun/drug carriers, I'll give you an example, pubs/bars/nightclubs here in the UK can have, and frequently do have, their licence removed for having people dealing drugs on their premises. That's some people doing something illegal on their premises. The pub/bar/nightclub loses it's licence and can no longer operate. They took a risk, on not dealing with the illegal activity on their premises, because they thought the risk was somewhere between tiny and non-existant.

It's not a great stretch to see how copyright holders and their lawyers could start to clamp down on the infringement that goes on in the hobby and for tournament organisers to become liable in a similar way, if they aren't already. We've seen how the music and movie industry are trying to clamp down on copyright infringement. Anyone who says such thinking is "out of touch" and no-one is interested in punishing tabletop gamers who infringe copyright isn't looking properly at the legal action going on already with other forms of entertainment media.

The people who have been fined hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions, of $ on behalf of music rights holders probably thought that no-one would care about little old them...

This message was edited 14 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 07:03:53


 
   
Made in au
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 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'd probably give it a go, haha, yeah, I think the risk would be somewhere between tiny and non-existant.


Then more fool you.

It just seems to me, what is the TO supposed to do? Ban a legal activity because some people might be doing something illegal?


In a word, yes. It's called covering your arse.


You mention store owners and gun/drug carriers, I'll give you an example, pubs/bars/nightclubs here in the UK can have, and frequently do have, their licence removed for having people dealing drugs on their premises. That's some people doing something illegal on their premises. The pub/bar/nightclub loses it's licence and can no longer operate. They took a risk, on not dealing with the illegal activity on their premises, because they thought the risk was somewhere between tiny and non-existant.
A big difference there is that dealing drugs in a club is always going to be illegal, so if an employee of the club sees it happen there's an obligation to report it, if employees / security / managers / owners of a club know that's going on (or worse, are involved) and do nothing to report it then of course the law is going to come down on them as it's always going to be a crime. I wouldn't be surprised if there's also something in the licencing documentation that states they'll take measures to combat drug abuse, giving the licensor an avenue for revoking licences specifically for that reason.

I would imagine in those cases where people have had licences revoked, there would have to be a level of knowing that it was happening and / or allowing it to happen.

However, owning a copied version of a book is only illegal in the subset of situations where the person doesn't own that book. If you ask them and they say they own it then at that point they're not doing anything wrong.

It just seems to me to be beyond reasonable expectation for a TO to police (or more specifically, investigate) that sort of behaviour. If you want to call the popo and ask for them to go raid their house because you suspect they don't own the original of the book they've copied, see how far you get I guess.

Beyond that, ask a lawyer for advice if you're worried about liability, I personally would not be worried unless I saw people blatantly sharing copies on my premises or at my event (at which point if I was a store owner I'd also be pissed they aren't buying product from me ).



This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 07:08:16


 
   
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Dakka Veteran






AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A big difference there is that dealing drugs in a club is always going to be illegal


So will infringing on copyright, or piracy as it's more commonly known, always be illegal. So, no, no difference. Both are unlawful/illegal activities in the eyes of the law.

You can spin it any which way you like.

At then end of the day if you are a TO and you are not ensuring your event is 100% above board, you're at the very least a crappy TO.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 07:14:06


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Rob Lee wrote:
The people who have been fined hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions, of $ on behalf of music rights holders probably thought that no-one would care about little old them...
But again you're conflating something that is definitely illegal (sharing copies of copyrighted material) with something that you only suspect might be illegal (someone possessing a copy, when they may or may not own the original).





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A big difference there is that dealing drugs in a club is always going to be illegal


So will infringing on copyright, or piracy as it's more commonly known, always be illegal. So, no, no difference. Both are unlawful/illegal activities in the eyes of the law.

You can spin it any which way you like.

At then end of the day if you are a TO and you are not ensuring your event is 100% above board, you're at the very least a crappy TO.


Argh, this is insanity. Infringing on copyright is illegal. Possessing a copy is not illegal.

You're conflating something that is absolutely positively illegal (drug dealing) with something that at best might be illegal only if other circumstances are met (the person doesn't own an original of a copy they possess).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/07 07:14:31


 
   
 
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