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Made in hr
Fresh-Faced New User




Hi all,

a buddy of mine might have found some cheese in the Nurgle codex...the Deathshroud terminators' Bodyguard (aura) ability:

While a friendly (insert plague company) character unit with W9 or less is within 3", enemy models cannot target that character with ranged attacks.

So...imagine a wall section, a single Deathshroud termie behind it so it can't be seen, and on the other side of the wall but within 3" of the aforementioned termie (because auras work through walls) a line of 5-6 characters with strong ranged weapons blasting away and being not targetable. (of course, Death guard characters can't be kitted out to have strong ranged weapons, but still...)

So am I missing something with this concept and the rules-viability of it?

Imagine if Iron hands had this, and their character dreads ripping away at long range...

Someone PLEASE show me why this would be against the rules. PLEASE.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

It's legal, although as you note it may not always make a huge deal. Company Veterans for Space Marines have the same rule.

Characters with great shooting can be somewhat unsatisfying to play against even without Bodyguards. Fortunately there are not too many.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

The Bodyguard rule is common to several armies, and is not generally a big deal.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




My friend does just what you're describing with his Necrons. Just wait for your 2nd turn drop someone behind his lines and in LoS of the bodyguard. Pop the bodyguard and then discover the wonderment of seeing a big name character out in the open with no recourse but to eat return fire. You can also do this first turn if you have a flyer with some firepower.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Yup, Bodyguard is currently a big cheesy exploit rule with literally no direct counter that I've yet seen. Your options are to either ignore the blob or eliminate the Bodyguard unit as best you can. Bodyguard doesn't even have the minimum or 3 models requirement like Look Out, Sir! nor is it overruled by Overwatch since Overwatch specifically states
Any rule that states the unit cannot be targeted unless it is the closest target (e.g. Look Out, Sir) does not apply when firing Overwatch.
   
Made in hr
Fresh-Faced New User




So, I guess Tau battle lines suck it bigtime - you just charge them with bodyguarded deep striking characters....ridiculous....
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






ThulsaDoom wrote:
So, I guess Tau battle lines suck it bigtime - you just charge them with bodyguarded deep striking characters....ridiculous....


Yes indeed! Because Overwatch happens when the charge is declared and before the charge move is even attempted you can charge with a character protected by a model with Bodyguard so no Overwatch actions can be made against it, and if any protected character is successful in their charge attempt, then any nearby units can just charge in with no fear of Overwatch because their target is already engaged.

Hopefully they will fix this soon as it is clearly a broken ability. Either that or they have to make the points costs on units with it prohibitively expensive, which is just a waste of excellent models and a good way to ensure they go the way of the Land Raider.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

I would have to point out that overwatch is not a full shooting attack, and is not targeted units in the same was as normal shooting attacks. EG stands for 'for example' it is not an exhaustive list.

Which means that overwatch will always fire at a charging unit regardless of targeting restrictions imposed by rules, as long as they can draw line of sight to them.

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 AndrewC wrote:
I would have to point out that overwatch is not a full shooting attack, and is not targeted units in the same was as normal shooting attacks. EG stands for 'for example' it is not an exhaustive list.

Which means that overwatch will always fire at a charging unit regardless of targeting restrictions imposed by rules, as long as they can draw line of sight to them.


Unfortunately, that's not quite the case. As per it's RAW, Overwatch is like a normal shooting attack that must target the charging unit and can ignore rules that require the unit to be the closest visible unit to be targeted.

Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules, except that an unmodified hit roll of 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any hit roll modifiers. In addition, when a model fires Overwatch, it does so at the charging unit. Any rule that states the unit cannot be targeted unless it is the closest target (e.g. Look Out, Sir) does not apply when firing Overwatch.


Bodyguard still applies because it does not specify that the unit cannot be targeted unless it is the closest target merely that enemy models cannot target that CHARACTER unit with ranged attacks with no exceptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Key here is that the rules for Overwatch specifically state that it follows all the normal rules for shooting with the exceptions of only hitting on an unmodified roll of 6 and ignoring rules that specify a unit cannot be targeted unless it is the closest visible unit. Normal shooting rules require a viable target before the attack can be made. Here the options are limited to the unit charging, but it must still be a viable target.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 01:17:37


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

Sergent,

The question of untarget-able units have existed in several editions of 40K. In each and every case, overwatch has always been able to target charging units regardless of targeting restrictions as long as line of sight can be traced to them. The bodyguard rule does not prevent Overwatch being declared as a reaction. Overwatch can be declared by a Tau player against a charging unit. Overwatch must be fired at the charging unit, I have no option otherwise, bodyguard says they may not be voluntarily targeted, So what happens next?

Cheers

Andrew

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 14:32:03


I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 AndrewC wrote:
Sergent,

The question of untarget-able units have existed in several editions of 40K. In each and every case, overwatch has always been able to target charging units regardless of targeting restrictions as long as line of sight can be traced to them. The bodyguard rule does not prevent Overwatch being declared as a reaction. Overwatch can be declared by a Tau player against a charging unit. Overwatch must be fired at the charging unit, I have no option otherwise, bodyguard says they may not be voluntarily targeted, So what happens next?

Cheers

Andrew
You can't target them.

If the only visible enemy unit was a Character, protected by a Bodyguard unit, could you target them?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

I'm not targeting them, I'm declaring Overwatch. Overwatch is targeting them.

A unit declaring overwatch has no choice or option of target and the bodyguard rule does not prevent a unit declaring overwatch.

So we have 'cannot' vs 'must'. Who wins?

As I said in my post, this question has arisen in multiple editions and they all came back as overwatch wins out. Because the target is not a voluntary choice.

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 AndrewC wrote:
I'm not targeting them, I'm declaring Overwatch. Overwatch is targeting them.

A unit declaring overwatch has no choice or option of target and the bodyguard rule does not prevent a unit declaring overwatch.

So we have 'cannot' vs 'must'. Who wins?

As I said in my post, this question has arisen in multiple editions and they all came back as overwatch wins out. Because the target is not a voluntary choice.
But 9th edition has changed the rules. When Overwatching, it's a normal shooting attack, but you only have one available target. You also only hit on 6s (barring special rules that modify that) and ignore any rules that prevent you from targeting them unless they're the closest model.

The Bodyguard rule does not have any wording to the effect of "Unless they're the closest model," so it doesn't get ignored by Overwatch.

Is that silly? Yes.
Would I play it that way? Probably not.
Is it RAW? Unfortunately yes.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




You do still need LoS to effectively declare overwatch though, so doesn't that give an instance where the bodyguard effectively blocks overwatch?

If my charging character unit is on the other side of an L building, you cannot target that charging unit, as you cannot shoot what you cannot see.

I think you can apply the same logic to the Look out Sir rule. It effectively makes the character out of los?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

JNA, overwatch is a charge reaction that is not a normal shooting attack. The rule itself states that it is resolved 'like' a normal shooting attack. So the rule itself states that it is not a normal attack. So RAW, no, very much debatable.

Fezzik, bodyguard says nothing about interfering with LoS. Many abilities simply affect visible units, so that character can be 'targeted' by abilities as long as they are not shooting attacks.

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

ThulsaDoom wrote:
So, I guess Tau battle lines suck it bigtime - you just charge them with bodyguarded deep striking characters....ridiculous....


Thats not the right way to play tau. Honestly they have ways to remove the bodyguard.... if its actually causing any issues.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

You're quite right Sazzlefrats, between SMS and AFP, they have a chance to remove that Termi, but 3W at 2+ its going to take a while.

Andrew

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 AndrewC wrote:
JNA, overwatch is a charge reaction that is not a normal shooting attack. The rule itself states that it is resolved 'like' a normal shooting attack. So the rule itself states that it is not a normal attack. So RAW, no, very much debatable.

Fezzik, bodyguard says nothing about interfering with LoS. Many abilities simply affect visible units, so that character can be 'targeted' by abilities as long as they are not shooting attacks.
So if you can find the rule that states you can ignore a Bodyguard rule, then you can Overwatch against them. Otherwise, you follow the ordinary rules for shooting.

Again, I agree it's dumb and likely wouldn't play it that way. Doesn't change the RAW.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

If I follow the ordinary rules for shooting then I get to hit on my Ballistic Skill. If I follow the ordinary rules for shooting then I can shoot at any target that I have LoS to.

Now we both know that that is not the case. I don't get to pick my target and I don't get to hit on base BS.

So overwatch is not an ordinary shooting attack.

So we are back to this quandry, how do you resolve 'cannot' vs 'must'?

Andrew

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

It’s not “must” though.

It’s “can only”.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I have to side with JNA on this. I think it's fairly clear that you can declare overwatch on what you are charged by.

That being said, you cannot declare overwatch on specific models.

I feel like I have JNA's position very wrong, can we all explain our positions here?

Mine: If you are charged by a character (Stupid move on the charging player IMHO) then you can declare overwatch against it.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Overwatch is similar to a normal shooting attack-it functions like one, except where otherwise noted.

These exceptions are...

1) You only hit on a natural 6 (unless otherwise modified by a special rule)
2) You can only target the charging unit
3) You can ignore any rule (such as Look Out Sir) that prevents you from targeting the given unit unless it's the closest model

All that together means that a Bodyguard rule (which wholesale prevents targeting, not just if they're not the closest target) prevents you from firing Overwatch against that target. Since they are the only valid target, but there's another rule that prevents them from being valid, you're left with only an invalid target. The only way to obey the rules is to not shoot at them.

I agree it's wonky as all hell, and probably not RAI. But it is RAW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 20:26:11


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




YEah. JNA has the right of it.
   
 
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