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Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

So this thought came up while i was in the 40K golden age topic when posters were pointing out the financial costs of hobbies.

For the brain exercise-
What are the average costs of a fully playable army at retail for various games.

Now i understand this is not the true costs of modeling supplies and time or the sweet deals you may have scored on second hand minis and such or "extra" stuff you decided to add on to your army later. to keep a base line i am just going retail costs for models not including books

i will go through some of mine

classic battletech

.The good-you only need 4 or 5 minis to build a base army depending on rather it is clan or inner sphere.
.The "bad" it is a heavy lore based universe so there are hundreds and hundreds of various minis that are available

The cost
for most of the last decade roughly $15 a mini prior to that it was about $10 but the new plastics have dropped the price back to those levels.

so on the high end $60-$90 for a full army

Infinity
i started in MKI and the average cost for an amy was consistently $120-$140 for a full 10 mini army pricing going up for including the bigger models like TAGs

Warmachine/Hordes

This one varies wildly depending on the points level and how many big models you have in an army.
My base 50 point khador list currently runs-$317-12 models


My BFG fleet when i got it new
a battleship, grand cruiser and 3 cruiser packs with FW thunderhawks for BFG scale-around $150

DUST 1947

This one varies alot because you can choose to play less or more depending if you want
.kits/primed and assembled minis/fully pro painted and assembled minis

the cost difference for a 5 man infantry unit breaks down as $25/$35/$65

the up side is that there are far less models needed to build a full army

My US heavy ranger force consists of 3 heavy ranger units, ranger command team, 2 special characters, 3 tanks and a plane for a decent 150 point game(18 models). i got them all primed edition so around $375 currently.

There are some games where there is no "standard game size" like B5 wars or epic so they are hard to quantify

as for epic using the 8th ed rules/points you can usually put down a 6-10K point army for around $100 depending on how many big (thats funny given it is 6mm) units you put in the force.

Now for the cash cow.

40K
back between 3rd and 5th i build 7 armies and as one would image when the points costs went up for the "standard" army size from 1,750, 1,850 and finally 2k the prices rose accordingly. from around $300 to around $500.

Since i do not play 9th aka primaris i am just going to price out what some of my original armies cost in current prices.

NIDs (1,850-25 models)
$520

TAU (1,850-39 models)
$600

MARINES (salamanders dreadnought list) (2K-18 models)
$665

RAVENWING(1,850-27 models)
$850

land speeders and attack bikes got stupid expensive now.






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







There's one simple fact why none of that matters:
- No one sticks around in the hobby content to just have the starting collection of models. And if people are trying to get a person started, they'll arrange all sorts of ways to push a person into the hobby (giving a few models here, lending a few models there, starting at smaller games, talking them into buying "just one box", etc.)
- Once you get started, the easy way is "just one more box".

I started buying Games Workshop models back in Realm of Chaos/Rogue Trader days. Buying a box or two at a time, back when they had the 'Ard Boyz tournaments (5th or 6th edition?), I had enough Chaos Demon models to play in the tournament -and- lend someone else a demon army.

Disclaimer: When I started playing, the cost to get started in Battletech was "buy the box, use the cardboard standies." Everything else was "oh, that's a cool model in a blister, I'll get that this week."

Edit: That's part of the reason why things like one or two player starter sets do gang busters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 03:35:24


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Well, let's see.... I'll add up my newest army.
---Lumineth---
$55 Severith, Lord of the 7th Wind x1
$45 Ellania/Ellathor, Warsages x1
$35 Hurakan Windmage x1
$30 Sincari Caligrave x1
$30 Sincari Lore Seeker x1
$35 Vanari Bannerblade x1
$150 Vanari Starshard Ballista x3
$110 Hurakan Wind Spirits x2
$60 Vinari Bladelords (1 unit of 5)
$40 BR Teclis book
$25 new pack of Warscroll cards (very handy during play!)
$NA two foam trays - I've already got spares
$1 cheap tape measure (all my armies get one in the case)
$NA dice (I have so many spare d6s....

So I've spent $616 on 1,970pts of all new elves.
Good thing that 1) I didn't pay full retail, 2) the $$ came from my Governments pandemic stimulus funds. Hey, they sent out $ so that I could "stimulate the economy". Not sure they envisioned me buying over-priced plastic elves, but....

The kicker here? All that $$ & I don't have enough Battleline units for a 2k game. So in the near future I'll be spending another $120* for two more boxes of Bladelords.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

with the different wargames around, the usual "cost" people calculate with is ~200-300€/250-350$ to play (much more if you are going to "collect")

but this includes all things needed to play bought from the local trader and everything that is more is seen as expensive for the hobby (for a Skirmish spending less on models but more for terrain and the other way around for R&F)

and there is always a way to go cheap, even for 40K you can get away with 90€ for a GK Jetbike army using 3rd party models (270€ with the original models+ books, so yes 40k is expensive) or going for a niche historical army spending 1000€ on 350 metal models

I spend a lot for the hobby, paints, terrain, books etc.
I buy much more books as I play games, just because I like good books and being always interested in reading what new things are around (not bought a GW book in years because of that as there ist not really something new)


my last army was Bolt Action German 1000points, for about ~70€ (1250 with a scratch build artillery) + 10€ for paints

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 06:40:31


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






This hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be.
used models, discounts, trades all of it as ways to make the hobby cheaper and manageable.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

I'm now 23 years into the hobby, I have a collection of 10-11K points of models (I mean official GW models including conversions but not scratch built stuff) plus another 7-8 K that I sold through the years, and I paid less than 20$ a month to get all of those models, tools and paints. Probably way less than that, maybe even around 10$ a month. I don't buy the books though, and only have been interested in GW models/games.

With 200-300$ a year or less invested in the hobby it should be considered reasonably cheap one I think.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 08:04:09


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 hotsauceman1 wrote:
This hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be.
used models, discounts, trades all of it as ways to make the hobby cheaper and manageable.

It's all fine if you're *only* in the hobby of gaming (at which point why aren't you playing boardgames? They tend to have much better thought out rules!)
If you want to also include modelling in the hobby, buying used kills 1/3rd of the hobby for you.
But even if you only go by pure "buying models" count, not books or paints or other supplies, GW comes out as one of the most expensive in the hobby if you want the "full" experience of AoS/40k cause it combines large model counts/large monster kits with GW pricing. There are games with models more expensive than GW but they usually tend to need 10-30 of them max, and there are games that require similar amount of models, but usually they're cheap plastic kits. GW kits are not really cheap and you need a ton of them and over the years they went as far as to cut down on how many models you get per box in some cases.
Of course they have cheaper (and usually more fun) alternatives like Warcry or Kill Team, but that's not where they want you to be as a company.

Anyway, wargaming isn't the most expensive hobby around, but there is a wide gap between frugal and GW gaming, even at discounts.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lincoln, UK

Historicals starter armies are a good deal, as @kodos mentioned.

Warlord's Pike and Shotte Battalia Starter Army is £75, and often found for £60. You get 80 infantry, 24 cavalry and 10 elite infantry. That's 2 core infantry units of 40 pike and muskets with command, 2 (or 3 small) cavalry units and a unit of specialist musket for suicide missions or guarding your gunpowder.

To expand that army, you may want as little as a mounted general, a cannon with crew, maybe a baggage cart (depends on rules). Another £20?

Even better, if you don't play Warlord's Pike and Shotte rules, that same set is 2 basic armies for Pikeman's Lament (and the rules are £12!). Same for other "big skirmish" rules like Sharp Practice.

Assuming you have some d6 and paints, you could have a whole game with both forces for £100.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

GW's prices are appropriate for a company operating as a monopoly. I know the challenge to this will be that there are many other wargames available, but if you want to play Space Marines and in the 40k universe you need to go to a Games Workshop, and so the games and miniatures are priced accordingly.

I think there is still a price elasticity (and I assume a lot of research goes into this), and for the most part the prices are probably hovering towards the top range of what people might spend. There will still be many alienated by this "how much for one character?!" a friend of mine cried, after being out of the hobby for a while. No doubt they do lose customers in this way, who hop over the fence to Mantic, Warlord Games etc. but I assume there is a line on a graph somewhere that they try and balance on.

What I will say is that GW gaming is more accessible now (not necessarily cheaper) than it was 7-8 years ago during the Kirby era. You have a whole range of gateway games, smaller specialist games and get started boxes which weren't around at that time. Back then it was hundreds of pounds on a full army or the highway, your choice. So you can dabble and spend much less, especially if you're happy to buy second hand or not have the latest and greatest - I know a lot of us live on the periphery in this way, not willing to hand over money that would pay for your annual car service or to get your boiler repaired!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 10:47:40


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Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Cronch wrote:

It's all fine if you're *only* in the hobby of gaming (at which point why aren't you playing boardgames? They tend to have much better thought out rules!)
If you want to also include modelling in the hobby, buying used kills 1/3rd of the hobby for you.


True, but at that point you'll be enjoying (and paying for) two hobbies, not just one: painting miniatures and wargaming. Which is also something that should be factored in.

Anyway there are plenty of cheap starter kits, discounted BNIB stuff (or just assembled at worst) around. I got tons of used stuff that was not painted/primed or even on sprue or sealed boxes so far, easily 15-20% of the models I've ever bought.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




None of the starter kits are "cheap" really, even for Warcry the current catacombs starter is $200. That's (I think) half the price of a new gen console for a handful of plastic figures and some cardboard. And I don't think expecting a new player (cause that's pretty much when price of entry matters most) to scour ebay for deals is sensible. They'll just go and buy a console and enjoy fuss-free gaming or buy a boardgame at 1/5th of the price with some good-enough models...
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Well, half parts are really cheap typically. I mean if you get two Indomitus halves you already have a functioning army, for a reasonably cheap amount of money.

It shouldn't be hard to find someone to split a starter kit (or multiple of those kits), as long as it's new and a popular one, like Indomitus was this summer.

As I said people need to look to the long period, not just the first investment. Those plastic figures could potentially and probably last forever, being legal for every future editions, which isn't true for a next gen console, which is invalidated after a few years as new games won't run on it. A new PC game can't really run well on a 5yo old setup, sometimes even on a 2-3yo old one. Or it doesn't run at all.

"Cheap" is always relatively speaking of course.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




That assumes the game exists in 2 or 5 years. Warmahordes is a good example, it might be functionally extinct if you don't have a dedicated group. I recently cleaned out my collection of dead game rulebooks. That of course assumes you will still want to play the same army 5 or 15 years from now.
The point stands however, GW is generally, for the average consumer, the most expensive gaming option, more expensive potentially than buying one console every generation and some games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 13:44:32


 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

well the only game you know for sure that it will be gone is the current version of 40k, as this changes every 3-4 years

so everything you buy dedicated for that game will be worthless in 3 years unless you have a fixed group that stays with the current one
(models are a different thing as you can use them in any other game or as terrain if needed)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






Cronch wrote:

Anyway, wargaming isn't the most expensive hobby around, but there is a wide gap between frugal and GW gaming, even at discounts.


This is basically my thinking. Wargaming is a relatively cheap hobby, but GW sits at the most expensive end of it barring a few exceptions. And because it's the most common/popular one, you can sell off your excess armies quicker and for more money than other wargames. Heck, if you've got old OOP models you can even make a profit. On top of that, GW is basically the D&D of the wargaming world, in that you can pretty much always find opponents to play. The cheapest wargame in the world is 100% worthless as a wargame (still has worth as something to paint) if you can't find opponents.


   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Somewhere between a bit and loads

Guild Ball

Prior to the final whistle going models were between £12-£15ish and a full roster was roughly 13 or so, with the cheaper plastic teams being a smidge cheaper, and the full time fire sale helped me 'finish' the collection have 7 or so teams so roughly £600ish give or take

40k

My Eldar army has pretty much everything bar the big Titan, big flyer (Vampire?) and one of the big FW tanks, Tempest maybe, but given I started 35 odd years ago when metals were £2.50 for a blister of 5, also out of touch with points values but at a guess a 2000pt force most likely runs between £300-£500

X-Wing

Again tricky as when I was playing this a lot you could technically put a squadron down for about £50 but given the funtyness of the card chasing the 'good lists' could run way hotter (looking at you 3po and palp)

Crisis Protocol

Got the starter box and the various web warrior boxes so far but still a bit hesitant to pull the trigger as the double packs and card chasing are giving me xwing flashbacks

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

Pacific wrote:
What I will say is that GW gaming is more accessible now (not necessarily cheaper) than it was 7-8 years ago during the Kirby era. You have a whole range of gateway games, smaller specialist games and get started boxes which weren't around at that time. Back then it was hundreds of pounds on a full army or the highway, your choice. So you can dabble and spend much less, especially if you're happy to buy second hand or not have the latest and greatest - I know a lot of us live on the periphery in this way, not willing to hand over money that would pay for your annual car service or to get your boiler repaired!


That's not true, those same "gateway games" existed before. In fact the rules for kill teams and combat patrol were included in the 4th ed main rulebook. also BFG as well as epic were an active game up 2013 (BFG 1999-2013, epic also ended in 2013)

space hulk was released in 89', 96', 2009, and the newest re-release in 2014.

blood bowl-86', 88', 94', 2001-2009 (4th edition living rules updates), 2016, 2020

the problem was they were never heavily promoted or supported by GW because they were not where the company was making it's big money.

Take my BFG fleet for example i spent less than $200 and i will never need to buy another unit for the fleet. there is no updated rules set that invalidates my ships or forces me to buy new ones every new edition and i do not need to buy a metric ton of models to make a playable army.

these legacy GW games were designed at a time that GW was a game company "for gamers by gamers" that they paid some homage to after they became a larger publicly traded corporation to sell models that happened to have a game attached to it (their words).





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

Wargaming is dirt cheap because you can make your own rules, models/templates, and game boards.

Plus, once you have those things you can use them forever. No one can take it away, even if the game dies, YOU can still play it.


Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 aphyon wrote:
Pacific wrote:
What I will say is that GW gaming is more accessible now (not necessarily cheaper) than it was 7-8 years ago during the Kirby era. You have a whole range of gateway games, smaller specialist games and get started boxes which weren't around at that time. Back then it was hundreds of pounds on a full army or the highway, your choice. So you can dabble and spend much less, especially if you're happy to buy second hand or not have the latest and greatest - I know a lot of us live on the periphery in this way, not willing to hand over money that would pay for your annual car service or to get your boiler repaired!


That's not true, those same "gateway games" existed before. In fact the rules for kill teams and combat patrol were included in the 4th ed main rulebook. also BFG as well as epic were an active game up 2013 (BFG 1999-2013, epic also ended in 2013)

space hulk was released in 89', 96', 2009, and the newest re-release in 2014.

blood bowl-86', 88', 94', 2001-2009 (4th edition living rules updates), 2016, 2020

the problem was they were never heavily promoted or supported by GW because they were not where the company was making it's big money.

Take my BFG fleet for example i spent less than $200 and i will never need to buy another unit for the fleet. there is no updated rules set that invalidates my ships or forces me to buy new ones every new edition and i do not need to buy a metric ton of models to make a playable army.

these legacy GW games were designed at a time that GW was a game company "for gamers by gamers" that they paid some homage to after they became a larger publicly traded corporation to sell models that happened to have a game attached to it (their words).


There was definitely a period where there were almost no gateway type games, or nothing like the amount that exist now in any case. I would say towards the tale end of the 00's. Specialist Games existed for a while on life support, but you had to look really hard to find it, and was well, well short of the kind of coverage and availability that games like Bloodbowl, Kill Team, Necromunda have nowadays, which are generally available even from FLGS's. Absolutely no chance of that back then, and as we know Specialist Games was eventually taken offline.

It was one of my main beefs with GW at the time, and something I (and a few other people on here, and on other forums) spent a great deal of time bitching about, to the point where (I think 2011) was dubbed 'the summer of terror'. You had a series of one-two punches that made it seem the company was run by Gremlins that had been fed after dark: Finecast, a big, across the board price rise, no real internet presence, RoW sales ban and most egregious of all was the atmosphere of fear that perpetuated after GW started going after fan sites, I think looking back may have been centered around any criticism of Finecast - I remember at least one site, and that small community ruined, because there was such a sense of fear that the C&D order would be coming after your community next. And part of what made the price rises so crappy was that there wasn't really the opportunity to get into games more cheaply. It was the big-bucks mega army or nothing. I had read that Space Hulk wasn't a popular release because it didn't fit in with the sales strategy at that time, which was why it only got a really limited run despite selling out almost instantly.

So, I think massive improvement these days, and at least the term Games Workshop actually has a wring of truth to it, whereas 10 years ago it was a kind of mocking reminder of wht the company used to be. You also don't get anything like the number of complaints threads that used to exist, which I think shows the company is going some way to fix its faults.

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 kodos wrote:
well the only game you know for sure that it will be gone is the current version of 40k, as this changes every 3-4 years

so everything you buy dedicated for that game will be worthless in 3 years unless you have a fixed group that stays with the current one
(models are a different thing as you can use them in any other game or as terrain if needed)


Not everything, just the books actually. Miniatures that get phased out at some point typically last no less than 20 years, and it doesn't happen very frequently. Of all the models I've bought since late 90s it's only the Big Gunz, which I sold years ago, that I can't probably play right now but I'm sure I could easily find someone that allows them to be counted as Mek Gunz anyway.

Terrain will also be fine forever, just like dice and cases to carry the miniatures.

Core rules are also free and making a copy of the few needed pages of a codex is also possible. In my country it's legal to copy up to 15% of a book protected by copyright which means you can get all the rules you need to play for really dirt cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
That assumes the game exists in 2 or 5 years. Warmahordes is a good example, it might be functionally extinct if you don't have a dedicated group. I recently cleaned out my collection of dead game rulebooks. That of course assumes you will still want to play the same army 5 or 15 years from now.
The point stands however, GW is generally, for the average consumer, the most expensive gaming option, more expensive potentially than buying one console every generation and some games.


Yeah, and what about playing the same videogame for 5-15 years? Don't get me wrong, that's exactly what I do: I mostly play videogames that I've finished 10+ times and just 3 of them were released in the last 10 years, but that's not how the majority of people plays videogames. Heck I know people that sometimes (more often than what someone may thinks) abandon a game after a few hours of gameplay, let alone finishing the same game twice.

On average videogamers will likely spend an amount of 20-30$ (or more) a month, which over a period of 3-4 years is more than enough to enjoy wargaming. The cost of a single console and 10ish games (just 2-3 a year, definitely an underestimate) is defintiely sufficient to enjoy both wargaming and painting the models.

In my experience people who consider videogames as their primary or secondary hobby really dump a lot in games, consoles, hardware, headphones, joysticks, etc... much more than I've spent on average per month in my life. I don't know lots of people who really spend hundreds every year in wargaming, especially if they just have one hobby and not two, aka they just speed paint or buy used stuff to get battle ready models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 07:55:47


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I just checked. Infinity is officially cheaper per-model than AoS with release of lumineth.
It's 45 euro for 5 vanari bladelords, resulting in 9 euro per model
A box of 4 Zanshi with special weapons is 34 euro, resulting in 8,5 euro per model (both prices from companies websites, no discounts).

   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Atlanta, GA

Core rules are also free


Except that they're not, because last I checked the free rules don't give you any information on how to actually build an army, any of the missions, or really anything except the very basics.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

Aside from $10-$20 for Tabletop Simulator (it goes on sale often) I'm essentially giving Titanomachina away for free via the Steam Workshop. I say 'essentially' because I'm not giving away the fancy, print-quality files, but my hope is that eventually enough people will try it and enjoy it that they'll want sets to play with their friends in meatspace and I'll be able to use those files to make solid copies to sell to them.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lincoln, UK

 Easy E wrote:
Wargaming is dirt cheap because you can make your own rules, models/templates, and game boards.

Plus, once you have those things you can use them forever. No one can take it away, even if the game dies, YOU can still play it.



Print and play is increasingly common - Blood in Space is a great little skirmish game that comes with the tiles to print out and play on.

My generation started playing with army men and Airfix models on the kitchen table, and in the garden.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Cheltenham, UK

if you want to play Space Marines and in the 40k universe you need to go to a Games Workshop


I mean, that's just demonstrably not true. There are endless companies making space marine equivalent minis as well as generic or grimdark sci-fi games that are either free or much cheaper than GW, and many are better designed and more entertaining than GW's offerings that are geared towards maximizing sales before maximising fun.

Way back when I first wrote MechaWar (the game that became Horizon Wars), I was seriously skint and struggling to hobby because of the cost. My aim was a game anyone could play for less than £10. The original rules were £1. You needed a handful of dice, some pennies and a sprue of mech minis from EM4 Miniatures that were, at the time, less than £2.50 for five mechs.

I'll admit my rules are a bit pricier, these days, because Daddy gotta make rent (and pay my artists), but it's still a big object of my design approach that games should be maximally accessible and players should be able to use whatever minis they love, instead of being strong-armed into purchasing the latest hotness.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 aphyon wrote:
So this thought came up while i was in the 40K golden age topic when posters were pointing out the financial costs of hobbies.

For the brain exercise-
What are the average costs of a fully playable army at retail for various games.

Now i understand this is not the true costs of modeling supplies and time or the sweet deals you may have scored on second hand minis and such or "extra" stuff you decided to add on to your army later. to keep a base line i am just going retail costs for models not including books


'Average costs' is a misnomer.

Thing about wmh for example is steamroller is a thing. You need to factor in 2 lists, not one. This can be as cheap as 'same list, swap caster', which considering the list building nature of wmh isn't the cleverest. Back in late mk2, my 2 lists were vlad 3 'charge of the horselords', and Butcher 3 double black.dragon (all metal, ordered the conversion kit from.pp...) very little crossover between the lists. cothl cost me something like 3 or 4 hundred quid, Butcher 3 and 'just' the black dragons was well over a hundred. Let's not talk about my Butcher 2 mad dogs of war list(fenris, 48 doom reavers....) as well.

And then there was the switch to mk3. A lot of the competitive lists from mk2 didn't age well meaning staying up with the meta would cost you. Double cav became a thing for a while, then thrmes and Infernals came along and upended the meta entirely. And infernals can set you back the best part of a grande if you take it to the 'bleeding edge' of competitiveness.


What's important in this conversation is breaking 'average' down as it is a terrible and extremely misleading metric, and considering:

(1) the buy in.

(2) cost of expansion, with the caveat is expansion to a particular 'sized' game strictly necessary. 'Standard' game sizes are a myth.

(3) support. Books, terrain requirements etc. Your models won't be the only necessary to play.

(4) maintenance/upkeep. Or 'chasing the meta'. With the caveat is this strictly necessary.

As for me, I have some gw games that I play that are very reasonable. my necromunda warband is the escher box and gangs book. Good to go. My warcry warband is the untamed beasts box. Good to go. Actually, in both cases, I bought the starter box. So £100 quid for rulebook and 2 warbands. My wmh? See above. Lots more (but no regrets!).


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
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Cheltenham, UK

'Average costs' is a misnomer. <snip>


Only if you consider miniatures-driven games. PP, GW, Wyrd et al aren't games companies. They are miniatures companies that make games in order to create an environment that encourages you to buy more miniatures.

If you were to buy your games from games companies that aren't driven by a desire to shift miniatures in order to make bank, you'd find a very different dynamic: games that adapt to your collection rather than vice versa.

Thing is, miniatures are a much more reliable way to make money because you can create these feedback loops. Whereas a game, once bought, is bought. There's very little pressure to buy new games if the first one suits your needs.

   
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 precinctomega wrote:
'Average costs' is a misnomer. <snip>


Only if you consider miniatures-driven games. PP, GW, Wyrd et al aren't games companies. They are miniatures companies that make games in order to create an environment that encourages you to buy more miniatures.

If you were to buy your games from games companies that aren't driven by a desire to shift miniatures in order to make bank, you'd find a very different dynamic: games that adapt to your collection rather than vice versa.

Thing is, miniatures are a much more reliable way to make money because you can create these feedback loops. Whereas a game, once bought, is bought. There's very little pressure to buy new games if the first one suits your needs.


You refer to the 'box game' approach, as opposed to the 'wave' approach, i think. If I may, do you have any companies/games in mind? Or is it an 'approach' to gaming that you favour?

I tend to agree with you in principle, more or less. It's kinda on the sane page as 'don't chase the meta'. That said, for a lot of companies in this hobby, they make their bank on the new release, and specifically the new release 'window', which kind of pushes them down the 'wave' approach sooner or later.

On the other hand though, even box games have expansions. As you say, if it suits your needs, more power to you.even better if you can buy generic minid that you can cross platform. I quite like the hasslefree 'modern troopers' for mordern-ish military and often used them as my ariadna stqnd-ins in infinity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/18 08:43:28


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

not boxed game VS wave approach

but Games vs rules made to sell models

Oathmark or Frostgrave would be systems that are designed to be a game
40k or KT are systems that are designed to sell models

main difference you see with those 2 kind of approaches is that the first one only adds another Edition to improve the game without a fixed timeframe or another edition hardly happening at all (and sometimes just being a re-print including FAQ/Errata)

while the other changes for the sake of change and the new Edition is a sidegrade and sometimes a completely different game (so that your former collection is not enough to play the new game and you need new models)

the selling point for the first one is that people want to start new armies or try different lists without the need to change anything
the other one forces you to buy stuff because the old army does not work any more (might be still playable but missing to fully enjoy the game)

both can be boxed or wave approaches

X-Wing, Legion, Kings of War, Frostgrave are games that release models in waves without the need to buy anything new

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 kodos wrote:
not boxed game VS wave approach

[Other stuff]



Fair points all, and thank you for the clarification. but I'm pretty sure the guys behind frostgrave also still have models to sell, and will want to sell you new rulebooks when the time comes (they're not a charity either!), and were they to get bigger, or were the game to mature, the wave approach will become more evident. Wmh was once a bit like this too, as I recall, where you didn't need to new shiny and where you could just start a new army just by swapping out your caster.

For what it's worth i alsi forgot about the idea of a 'game' being sold, even sans models, which is foolish if me considering I have a copy of Scrappers lurking about.

Only thing I'll say about this is I feel it'll work better on the small scale, or with a new, or new-ish game,especially 'guy writing stuff on a weekend' and probably wouldn't really work on the scale that say gw operates on or the age of the game. This is not to cast shade on what you say, by the way.

You are correct, there's nothing wrong with it at all.

Anyway, thank you, and for what it's worth I'm not going to investigate frostgrave.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/18 09:44:53


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
 
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