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Dakka Veteran





Armpit of NY

I'm not sure it's going to help much, but NOVA is asking for donations for there to be a 2022 event after two years of no Open. https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-nova-open-survive-covid
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Out of my Mind

I sincerely doubt that an unsuccessful crowdfunding campaign will kill the NOVA OPEN.

The loss of any event this size would be a loss for the community in the area, especially one with a very successful Charity event. From the side of 40k, it would be much more appealing if they had just stuck with playing 40k over the past few editions, instead of ignoring it in favor of their own format. If it had remained confined to the NOVA OPEN like it should've been from the start, then the 'Matched Play' rules probably wouldn't have made it into the game and we'd have a much more inclusive edition than what exists now.

I remain optimistic that it will go away. I was under the impression that the only way for the NOVA OPEN (and others like it) would only die if the organizers themselves were to kill it. There is an opportunity here for it to go away. Which would allow GW to fix the game. This will allow more players to participate back into the Tournament Scene, and it would become more about Competitive 40k and less about Competitive Matched Play. Then we would get 'Metawatch Articles' written by 40k players opposed to 'Event Gurus', and be applicable to anyone who plays 40k. Not just those who subscribe to the worst format to ever have existed in the history of the game.

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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






As somebody who loves NOVA and definitely extremely torn up that it didn't happen the last two years...

Why are they apparently expanding if they're just trying to survive? You'd think they would cut back and just use the software they've been successfully running conventions with, they would keep volunteer staff instead of paid staff, etc.

Now seems to be the time to take a hit and downsize to what they were at a few years ago, not try to make the biggest NOVA ever.

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Locked in the Tower of Amareo





That was what i thought. Itkeeps up saying sxrvive. Yet lists enpense increases to increase size.

That's not what you do when your goal is survival.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




I get that expenses can increase quite a lot as you grow, especially for things like storing the terrain and all the other stuff you need to run such a large event - a quick search shows a 10' x 30' storage space for just over $900 a month in the DC area. And that's costs you're paying regardless of whether the convention runs or not, so the last two years have incurred those costs without any revenue to fund it.

However, it does seem really odd that most of the expenses they list are about expanding through adding paid staff and updating their management software. That seems like a really odd decision if you're just trying to survive. Running a smaller convention (or one the same size as pre-pandemic) isn't a failure, it's not even a bad idea. I think even if Nova ran at a reduced size for a couple of years to get back on its feet that would seem reasonable. Asking for money to "survive" then talking about expanding doesn't send the best message. It just seems like a lot of the things they're listing as expenses aren't actually expenses, they're capital investment required to grow. I think it would be much more effective if they'd show the costs they've already incurred (such as storage) rather than ones they're going to incur in the future if they want to expand.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

i'd also wonder if by paid staff they actually mean brand new people they plan to employ

or

the conversion of some or all of the voluntary positions people already involved in the Nova open are filling into paid positions filled by the same people

(not necessarily a bad thing, especially as covid may mean some of the volunteers might not be in a position to offer their services free)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 09:40:11


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It might be that they are expecting/hoping that 2022 will be a boom year. Basically they are banking on the vaccines working and being distributed in enough quantity and reach that the USA at least will be safe to socialise in. They are thus perhaps thinking that people will go out like nuts in 2022 to make up for the 1-2 years they've been denied it thus far.

So they are gearing up and preparing for a big expansion and thus hoping they can ride that wave next year.



Plus in the end if it isn't a boom year and they've raised funds, they can scale back as needed. It might also be that they are also hoping that these funds will last them 2022 as well IF the vaccines and such don't work; or if distribution isn't enough or whatever and 2022 ends up another year they can't run (or can run but with social distancing and much reduced in capacity etc...)

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I can't find the survey results but it was something like 40/40/20 for "won't show if vax proof required", "won't show without vax requirements", "don't care".

Ditching the 40% of the community that puts the tiniest possible amount of medical data possible as out of bounds after they handed it (and more!) over for school and college is necessary for NoVA to live. There's no way it hits 200k.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
I can't find the survey results but it was something like 40/40/20 for "won't show if vax proof required", "won't show without vax requirements", "don't care".

Ditching the 40% of the community that puts the tiniest possible amount of medical data possible as out of bounds after they handed it (and more!) over for school and college is necessary for NoVA to live. There's no way it hits 200k.


200k seems like a very high target. Apparently 3000 people attended the last one, meaning if every one of those were to donate they'd each need to donate just under $67 each. The current average donation is above that number but they'd need almost 2,200 donations at that level to hit their target. Seems unlikely.

I think a big unknown is how large events like Nova will need to be run post-Covid. Will there be any vaccination requirement is a good question a lot of people will want to know before committing to attending.
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
I can't find the survey results but it was something like 40/40/20 for "won't show if vax proof required", "won't show without vax requirements", "don't care".

Ditching the 40% of the community that puts the tiniest possible amount of medical data possible as out of bounds after they handed it (and more!) over for school and college is necessary for NoVA to live. There's no way it hits 200k.


Oh no. I never bothered to look at the survey results.

That's disappointing.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
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Damsel of the Lady




Slipspace wrote:
PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
I can't find the survey results but it was something like 40/40/20 for "won't show if vax proof required", "won't show without vax requirements", "don't care".

Ditching the 40% of the community that puts the tiniest possible amount of medical data possible as out of bounds after they handed it (and more!) over for school and college is necessary for NoVA to live. There's no way it hits 200k.


200k seems like a very high target. Apparently 3000 people attended the last one, meaning if every one of those were to donate they'd each need to donate just under $67 each. The current average donation is above that number but they'd need almost 2,200 donations at that level to hit their target. Seems unlikely.

I think a big unknown is how large events like Nova will need to be run post-Covid. Will there be any vaccination requirement is a good question a lot of people will want to know before committing to attending.


I find it unlikely that any event like NOVA is going to require anything more than what state/local/venue regulations require of them. So ball is really in a different court.

Regarding the donations, I've somewhat wondered if Brandt doesn't see closing NOVA as somewhat of a relief since he's full time with GW now. I'm not trying to throw shade on him (in case you're reading, Brandt, since I know you lurk here) and not saying that'd be bad, just something that occurred to me. Likely, another tournament takes NOVA's place if it goes down since the East Coast won't really have a flagship one without it. Nature abhors a vacuum and all that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 15:26:17


 
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






I thought Brandt stepped down from NOVA when he accepted the job from GW?

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
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And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
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And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
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Damsel of the Lady




Rihgu wrote:
I thought Brandt stepped down from NOVA when he accepted the job from GW?


Did he? I don't get the newsletter or anything so it might've happened and I missed it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
I thought Brandt stepped down from NOVA when he accepted the job from GW?


Did he? I don't get the newsletter or anything so it might've happened and I missed it.


I did, correct.

In re all of this, NOVA costs in excess of 200k a year to run. The staff bit is because Laurie Brandt, who has been working on it full time as a volunteer for nearly a decade, is getting older and would like to enjoy retirement and being a grandma. Her work's been amazing, but getting another full timer with that skillset probably isn't likely without actually paying someone, and a full time person managing the back office stuff is just necessary I think.

And I stepped down to avoid any appearance of impropriety and ensure all events around the world got attention.

I'm fully confident the GoFundMe will be helpful at keeping Nova going, and the team running it is comprised of longtime board members and volunteers. Since NOVA always donated anything above what it NEEDED to charity, its coffers weren't well situated for two straight years of cancellations. But it'll be back. I'm confident. And I'll be happily attending with the GW events team and all that jazz.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 15:55:49


 
   
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Damsel of the Lady




MVBrandt wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
I thought Brandt stepped down from NOVA when he accepted the job from GW?


Did he? I don't get the newsletter or anything so it might've happened and I missed it.


I did, correct.

In re all of this, NOVA costs in excess of 200k a year to run. The staff bit is because Laurie Brandt, who has been working on it full time as a volunteer for nearly a decade, is getting older and would like to enjoy retirement and being a grandma. Her work's been amazing, but getting another full timer with that skillset probably isn't likely without actually paying someone, and a full time person managing the back office stuff is just necessary I think.

And I stepped down to avoid any appearance of impropriety and ensure all events around the world got attention.

I'm fully confident the GoFundMe will be helpful at keeping Nova going, and the team running it is comprised of longtime board members and volunteers. Since NOVA always donated anything above what it NEEDED to charity, its coffers weren't well situated for two straight years of cancellations. But it'll be back. I'm confident. And I'll be happily attending with the GW events team and all that jazz.


Yeah, most people are going to want payment now, especially with lockdowns tightening belts. It's gonna be rough replacing folks. Good luck to them.

As a regular attendee, I do look forward to hopefully seeing you all again one day.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

My understanding is VA and MD are preparing to reopen at full capacity in June.

No idea what this means for the convention scene. I was supposed to visit Pentagon City for a conference in August, it was cancelled now appears to be back on. About half the presenters have announced they will be remote, but that will probably change.

Wondering if there will be opportunities for the NOVA Open board to revisit the event. Instead of just one big event each year, maybe offer some smaller tournament options. I attend NOVA because it overlaps with other business I have in the area, pretty sure there are others who do the same.


   
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Foxy Wildborne







There are many things in this world I do no understand. I guess now also why one needs 200.000$ to not run an event.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Well part of it sounds like their year to year savings were only just enough to cover operational setup costs before the event; which after 2 lockdowns and shutdowns has burned through those reserves of cash. So its more that part of it is to allow them to have the cash to run next year. Since if they stop paying for storage that storage will vanish and that held equipment will have to be sold or moved around.


The other part sounds like a few key volunteers are stepping down/retiring and as a result duties that were once done for free now need to be done and if you can't replace with a volunteer you have to replace with paid staff. For an event like this it sounds like a really bad time to make such a move, but it might be well out of their hands.



A month later and only just under $10K raised, even if they kept that rate up they'd only get $120K in a year. So that's only a little over half the money they need. I figure their only way is to retain volunteers; find cheaper storage/make agreements with the rental and find ways to cut costs.

Part of their pitch sounds like they are hoping for an investor or two to make a big donation, hence bigging up the attending number estimations; however foot, hotels and other local businesses that would benefit and thus be more likely to put money forward; might all well hav burned through their own cash reserves over the last year; resulting in them having to play it highly cautious and not having money to invest.

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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Downscale and sell tickets to cover the cost, as others have said. If your 40K tournament costs $200K maybe it isn’t viable. Sorry if this seems savage, but adapting means more than just asking the internet for money, at a time when many folks have little spare to give. Refocus, reimagine, start smaller, make the events pay for themselves, don’t give money away, all that good stuff. I just don’t see how this will be successful, as if this folds other folk will run tournaments in other ways anyway.

 Stormonu wrote:
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






I have a side of business on putting on combat sport events (MMA) in a fairly big hall, we record the events, and could live stream them for about £1k more. Current cost to run one of these events, with advertising is around the £4k mark.

Just to be generous, I'll double the cost for half a day, and then double it again for a full day. Around £20k per day, for 3 days, so £60k... Yeah, not cheap, but... If you're drawing in 2000 people for those 3 days at however much a ticket it is fairly easy to make a profit if you aren't being an idiot with expenses, which it sounds like they are ($200k is ridiculous)... It should only really have certain costs for the business outside of the event also which would be minimal. If they have people on salary for example, that is where they're going wrong straight away, it is not sustainable to try and live off/draw a regular income from a company that only effectively takes in revenue for 3x days a year.

And before anyone chimes in with the cost of tables/terrain etc etc, most of that £4k mark I mentioned above for my events is equipment one way or another, cages/octagons aren't cheap to rent, and we rent for a reason, as whilst it makes more sense to buy our own cage if we want to maximise profit, we also don't have the associated costs involved with it outside of the event... Again, trying to run it as a business, with asset maintenance (equipment, storage etc) when you realistically only make significant revenue for 3x days a year is ridiculous business practice, it is pie in the sky and screams of lacking contingency/ability to survive and gambling too much.

Anyway, sounds like poor business practice/trying to grow too quickly.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/23 06:53:40


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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I have a side of business on putting on combat sport events (MMA) in a fairly big hall, we record the events, and could live stream them for about £1k more. Current cost to run one of these events, with advertising is around the £4k mark.

Just to be generous, I'll double the cost for half a day, and then double it again for a full day. Around £20k per day, for 3 days, so £60k... Yeah, not cheap, but... If you're drawing in 2000 people for those 3 days at however much a ticket it is fairly easy to make a profit if you aren't being an idiot with expenses, which it sounds like they are ($200k is ridiculous)... It should only really have certain costs for the business outside of the event also which would be minimal. If they have people on salary for example, that is where they're going wrong straight away, it is not sustainable to try and live off/draw a regular income from a company that only effectively takes in revenue for 3x days a year.

And before anyone chimes in with the cost of tables/terrain etc etc, most of that £4k mark I mentioned above for my events is equipment one way or another, cages/octagons aren't cheap to rent, and we rent for a reason, as whilst it makes more sense to buy our own cage if we want to maximise profit, we also don't have the associated costs involved with it outside of the event... Again, trying to run it as a business, with asset maintenance (equipment, storage etc) when you realistically only make significant revenue for 3x days a year is ridiculous business practice, it is pie in the sky and screams of lacking contingency/ability to survive and gambling too much.

Anyway, sounds like poor business practice/trying to grow too quickly.


NOVA, indeed any 40k events besides LVO I think, don't get anywhere close to 2,000 people, for starters. It was a huge deal, unprecedented in the industry, when they were cracking a few hundred I believe.

NOVA also already owns the equipment (terrain/tables, e.t.c.). I believe it was purchased years ago. I don't think there's any large retailer who can rent that stuff on the scale they would need it. It's buy or bust (unless an entrepreneur makes a rental industry). Could be wrong, but that's my understanding.

NOVA is also a registered non-profit and retains little to no holdover cash. It regularly donates its excess to charity so there isn't a stored cushion to fall on.

NOVA is also in the northern Virginia/D.C. metro area, which is one of the most expensive in the entire United States for real estate.

Finally, as was mentioned, they're being forced to hire because volunteers are currently quitting and not replacements aren't forthcoming. You can't use free labor if free labor isn't present.

Anyway, not trying to attack. Just a few points of observation that make this a little bit of a different scenario.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/23 14:56:41


 
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






3,000 people attended the NOVA Open in 2019...

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
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And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
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And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

Rihgu wrote:
3,000 people attended the NOVA Open in 2019...


Yup, I think most conflate amount of tickets for each specific event within a convention as the attendance. Even for things like LVO/NOVA/EVO(as a video game example), there are a lot more additional attendees there for the experience and spectacle than there ever will be to actually play. That said, 3k is still a pretty small convention in attendance numbers.

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Damsel of the Lady




Rihgu wrote:
3,000 people attended the NOVA Open in 2019...


I was referring to just the 40k section since this is a 40k forum. I have no clue on other events there. That's why I had '40k events'.
   
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Platuan4th wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
3,000 people attended the NOVA Open in 2019...


Yup, I think most conflate amount of tickets for each specific event within a convention as the attendance. Even for things like LVO/NOVA/EVO(as a video game example), there are a lot more additional attendees there for the experience and spectacle than there ever will be to actually play. That said, 3k is still a pretty small convention in attendance numbers.


How much do tickets cost for the whole event?

If they're wanting $200k, that sounds like a very expensive event for only 3000 attendees.

Seems like they haven't had any major donations in the past few days, as they were just below $10,000 when I last checked and they're still just below $10,000.

Don't like to see people fail, but seems like they overstretched a bit on this one.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

For $200K from 3K visitors they need $66.67 per person

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Vendor hall at NOVA?
   
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Eye of Terror

Ork-en Man wrote:
Vendor hall at NOVA?


Big one, which also produces revenue for the conference.

Can't remember what I paid last time, might have been $20 for a one day pass. You register for each day, you also register for each tournament where you want to compete. I could see it being $150+ for most attendees.

   
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 techsoldaten wrote:
Ork-en Man wrote:
Vendor hall at NOVA?


Big one, which also produces revenue for the conference.

Can't remember what I paid last time, might have been $20 for a one day pass. You register for each day, you also register for each tournament where you want to compete. I could see it being $150+ for most attendees.


yea, that's about how much I pay for 5 days attendance + 1-3 tournaments, if I remember right.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Overread wrote:
For $200K from 3K visitors they need $66.67 per person


That's about the range($60-75) I'd expect for a 3-day pass for a convention this size, so it's not a bad ask if they can actually get that many people to donate what they'd tend to pay each year anyway.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
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