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Made in us
Pleasure Sacrifice to Slaanesh



United States

So... our FLGS ran an Escalation League that in its beginnings was intended to get new players into 40k. We started at 250 point and gradually increased in size. 250, 500, 750, 1000, 1500, and 2000 points. Facing two opponents at each point value. This effectively tripled our 40k player community. Drawing many new players from the Magic The Gathering crowd.

This was not supposed to turn into a cutthroat tournament, but due to the over competitive nature of our MTG community, it got bloody as hell. Originally we all agreed... absolutely no Lords of War as some of us older players have several LoW's. We all agreed and were more than happy to follow this rule, we wanted a good fun league. Well... enter one of the MTG players who bought Mortarion and whined enough to the store to be allowed to bring him to the table. This pissed a lot of us off. A few players up and dropped from the league. So in response... a few older players are fielding multiple Knights, Super Heavy tanks, and Tau chicannery at the LoW level. Thus taking a Scorched earth approach to this rule change. They also set up a prize structure based on entries and purchases during the league. 1st place was set to receive well over $600. Turning a friendly "Learn the Game" league into a tournament. With store employees, who get product at a discounted rate participating... Currently... in the top 5 are the store owner who has been using the stores loaner army, and the manager.

Being one of the older players dating back to 3rd Ed, I have several LoW, and have joined in on the utter annihilation of some of the new players who in their infinite wisdom, believe they know more about the game than those of us who have been around since at least 5th Ed.

It's been heavily commented on that the players that came from the MTG community are just douches about everything. They're trying to play 40k like it's MTG and failing miserably.

So... my question... Have any of you experienced similar issue with players coming from other gaming communities? Should I be as salty as I am about the shift from Friendly to Tournament? Should I be even saltier about the reversal on the "No LoW rule"? And finally... In your opinion is it ethical for the owner and manager to participate for prizes when they have contributed next to nothing towards said prize pool?

"Well... That just happened, didn't it?" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I have not. I don't think people should stress the LoWs so much. Learning to play against or with them can be part of the experience of Warhammer and honestly if those MtG guys were angling to win they wouldn't likely be running LoWs.

Seems pretty stupid for employees to be eligible though.

   
Made in gb
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Your version of the story certainly seems like things have got out of hand, or at least the initial intent changed a lot. Either because of the MTG players, or for some other reason.

I’m of the opinion that 40K shouldn’t be played for money or prizes, simply because the rule set isn’t robust enough to allow for this. Of course not everybody agrees on this point.

I agree that the employees should not really be participating in a league / tournament / whatever that includes cash prizes.

It seems like all you can really do to object is to drop out of the competition. You can voice your concerns of course but from what you say it sounds like you’ll be overruled.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




This is a problem with the store management. If the rule was no LoWs, there should have been no exceptions made. And the store owner and manager should not be participating in the tournament, or, at the very least, should not be eligible for any of the prizes.

It sounds like your FLGS is not run professionally, which is very common, since most FLGSes are run by people who are fans first and foremost and businesspeople second.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





yukishiro1 wrote:
This is a problem with the store management. If the rule was no LoWs, there should have been no exceptions made. And the store owner and manager should not be participating in the tournament, or, at the very least, should not be eligible for any of the prizes.

It sounds like your FLGS is not run professionally, which is very common, since most FLGSes are run by people who are fans first and foremost and businesspeople second.


Pretty much this.

   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Yeah, this (as presented) sounds like a store issue, not an MTG bogeyman issue.

In your opinion is it ethical for the owner and manager to participate for prizes when they have contributed next to nothing towards said prize pool?

Nope. Though I'm curious what 'next to nothing' is.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

No LoWs means no LoWs. If the person wanted to play Morty that bad they could have arranged a game outside of the tournament. Store employees competing for prizes seems unprofessional. I could understand them participating, but they shouldn't be eligible for prizes.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

Yeah, main issue seems like its your stores management being gak more than anything else. MTG players aren't automatically cut-throat, nor are 40k players automatically casuals. I've encountered plenty of 40k players that were TFG cheese-mongers who never touched MTG, and also numerous MTG players coming over to 40k that were only looking for casual beer and pretzels gaming. The two aren't mutually exclusive. The issue you had with that one player wanting to field Mortarion isn't because hes an MTG competitive player, its because hes a whiny WAAC powergamer. The problem would have been stopped dead in its tracks if the store management had held the line and enforced the rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 20:39:53


This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I dunno, I think there is something to the idea that different games have different cultures. Obviously you can't generalize from that to individual players. But in the aggregate, I do think 40k is a game with a game culture that is more about making sure everybody's having fun than, say, MTG is. I think there are a lot of complicated reasons for this, but most of them come back to how much greater an investment is required to play 40k, both monetary and time-wise. When people are spending dozens or hundreds of hours painting up armies and then playing games that typically last upwards of 2 hours, there's more of a sense of camaraderie than there is in MTG where you can play a game in 5 minutes and if your opponent rolls you over with a gotcha whatever, you just go on to the next game.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

yukishiro1 wrote:
I dunno, I think there is something to the idea that different games have different cultures. Obviously you can't generalize from that to individual players. But in the aggregate, I do think 40k is a game with a game culture that is more about making sure everybody's having fun than, say, MTG is. I think there are a lot of complicated reasons for this, but most of them come back to how much greater an investment is required to play 40k, both monetary and time-wise. When people are spending dozens or hundreds of hours painting up armies and then playing games that typically last upwards of 2 hours, there's more of a sense of camaraderie than there is in MTG where you can play a game in 5 minutes and if your opponent rolls you over with a gotcha whatever, you just go on to the next game.


What universe do you exist in? That sounds like an idealized fantasy of a 40k community that doesn't exist.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







PrimoVictoria wrote:
...So... my question... Have any of you experienced similar issue with players coming from other gaming communities?


I don't think it's useful to generalize. Most games have communities that include WAAC-y tournament players and more casual people, getting MTG players into 40k isn't going to turn the game into a competitive tournament experience unless they were already competitive tournament people. (I've honestly had more problems with 40k players deciding they want to try Warmachine and assuming they need to bring netlists/argue about which units are useless and then getting irritated and quitting when they discover that you can't win games of Warmachine by playing netlists badly.)

...Should I be as salty as I am about the shift from Friendly to Tournament?...


Honestly? 40k's pivoted in its design and marketing pretty heavily towards tournament play in recent years. People who decide they want to start playing 40k right now tend to be attracted by the idea of 40k as a tournament game. Whether or not you're salty about it I don't think you should be surprised.

...Should I be even saltier about the reversal on the "No LoW rule"?...


Probably not. "No Lords of War" just isn't that relevant a rule; you lock out Primarch auras, sure, but you leave really powerful HQs untouched, and except for Knights superheavies are pretty much always worse than just taking a bunch of normal tanks.

...In your opinion is it ethical for the owner and manager to participate for prizes when they have contributed next to nothing towards said prize pool?...


If I'm going to point at the worst decision from this whole experience setting up a prize pool based on how much everyone in the league has spent on 40k models was pretty dumb. A $600 top prize is pretty antithetical to any kind of casual/friendly play, raising the prize pool depending on how much people dump into the game is going to encourage overspending, and if you didn't state up front what the prize pool was you're setting people up to get into the league without realizing how serious it was going to get. It sounds like your store management had a great idea for driving sales, less great of an idea for building a community that might want to hang out together after the league.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
...how much greater an investment is required to play 40k...


Go try and build a meta Modern deck for less than the cost of a 40k army. Go on. We'll wait.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 21:08:02


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






As has already been stated above: The no LOW rule should have remained enforced, and the store staff should not be eligible for any rewards. This sounds like just poor community management, basically.

I wouldn't blame anything on the MTG folk.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





As an old salt at Magic, who escaped that life, yeah they're a bad crowd.

Since getting into better communities I've on several occasions had to stop myself from going that way. And just as many times had to walk away from someone trying to bring that attitude to me.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Daedalus81 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
This is a problem with the store management. If the rule was no LoWs, there should have been no exceptions made. And the store owner and manager should not be participating in the tournament, or, at the very least, should not be eligible for any of the prizes.

It sounds like your FLGS is not run professionally, which is very common, since most FLGSes are run by people who are fans first and foremost and businesspeople second.


Pretty much this.


Very much this.
Sounds like poor management of issues.

If you set up a league/ tournament with specific restrictions, and then change the rules to suit one guy, it sends a bad message to the community.
I don't think this is reflective of any particular community as a generalisation. Just crappy people doing crappy things. If the guy turns into a real WAAC player he just wont get many games within the community with chill people(Word gets around) and will wind up playing other WAAC guys and they can throw temper tantrums together..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 21:41:18


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
...how much greater an investment is required to play 40k...


Go try and build a meta Modern deck for less than the cost of a 40k army. Go on. We'll wait.


I would respond to this with "Go read the rest of the sentence before responding to it. Go on. I'll wait" but that would be needlessly hostile and rude.

You don't spend dozens to hundreds of hours assembling and painting MTG cards. There is no real "hobby' side of things in the same way. It changes things dramatically in terms of how people relate to the game and to one another. MTG players aren't fellow hobbyists in the same way that 40k players are.

Incidentally if your local 40k scene is dominated by unpainted plastic meta-chasers it probably is more likely to be like other games where there is less camaraderie, but that reinforces my point rather than diminishing it.

I'm not interested in vilifying MTG or anything, I don't think it's particularly worse than most other gaming scenes. Just pointing out that the hobbyist element of wargaming tends to produce more friendly communities than those based around games that don't have a hobby element.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 21:44:49


 
   
Made in us
Noble Knight of the Realm




Louisville (KY)

Holy GAK I would run so far away from that community.

Literally everything about that is alarm bells after alarm bells.

There is no saving this.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




chaos0xomega wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I dunno, I think there is something to the idea that different games have different cultures. Obviously you can't generalize from that to individual players. But in the aggregate, I do think 40k is a game with a game culture that is more about making sure everybody's having fun than, say, MTG is. I think there are a lot of complicated reasons for this, but most of them come back to how much greater an investment is required to play 40k, both monetary and time-wise. When people are spending dozens or hundreds of hours painting up armies and then playing games that typically last upwards of 2 hours, there's more of a sense of camaraderie than there is in MTG where you can play a game in 5 minutes and if your opponent rolls you over with a gotcha whatever, you just go on to the next game.


What universe do you exist in? That sounds like an idealized fantasy of a 40k community that doesn't exist.


I feel really sorry for you if that's been your experience.
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Guess when they said Escalation League they meant in the sense of the 6th(?) edition book that sent LoW into mainline 40k. People bringing LoW to our beginners and casual Saturday club as their standard army always made things extra difficult. Reading that story makes me happy that most of the staff at my local GW were pretty chill guys and even when we had a tournament, they could compete but were exempt from prizes. The prizes were always the same, gift vouchers, and came from everyone paying to play in the tournament which was about 12 people max with most of the entry fee going towards a takeaway midway through.
Really feel for you dude, that seems like a bad situation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 22:20:17


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Just show up with some brand new models......that you bought online.

I wouldn't sweat it, 40k will 40k. Best to find like minded individuals and play casually if that's your lane.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

You've noted a number of problems, some of which you are personally participated in. You should take a minute to decide what issues bother you and then go talk to the owner/organizer about them in them in a dispassionate way. It could help to write out what you want to say in advance so that you don't go in all excited and accusatory. Instead, state the facts, how they made you feel, and what you would like done in the future to prevent such escalations in the future.

They will either have good answers for you or not. They will either take what you say into advisement or not. You can then either continue to play or not based on their response.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






chaos0xomega wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I dunno, I think there is something to the idea that different games have different cultures. Obviously you can't generalize from that to individual players. But in the aggregate, I do think 40k is a game with a game culture that is more about making sure everybody's having fun than, say, MTG is. I think there are a lot of complicated reasons for this, but most of them come back to how much greater an investment is required to play 40k, both monetary and time-wise. When people are spending dozens or hundreds of hours painting up armies and then playing games that typically last upwards of 2 hours, there's more of a sense of camaraderie than there is in MTG where you can play a game in 5 minutes and if your opponent rolls you over with a gotcha whatever, you just go on to the next game.


What universe do you exist in? That sounds like an idealized fantasy of a 40k community that doesn't exist.


it has very much been the reality where i've been at for the longest time.

Initially, there was something of a 'sort' between the various game stores in the area - one was right between two of the nation's biggest colleges, easily accessible via the public transit system, and they played on Wednesdays late into the night, and the other was a hobby shop first game shop second located out of the city but in an area with free parking galore on sundays which is when we played. So the stereotypical player at shop A was a cutthroat competitive college kid and the stereotypical player at shop B was a young professional or nostalgic dad who did'nt have a ton of interest in powergaming and just wanted to play with their collection of models.

Now, culture is enforced more based on the types of events we run vs the closest other gaming location. They host tournaments regularly, following all the ITC rules, with several of the Very Serious Esport 40ks "Finest" Competitive Minds regularly practicing, and we tend to do dumb gak like an 'imperium vs everybody' event I ran with a branching mission structure based on which side won or lost - if the imperium was losing, more and more elements of the imperial military would get dispatched to the planet to deal with the emerging Everybody Else threat, and if the imperium was winning the ways in which the imperium was defeating the various adversaries would call more enemies (huge seismic weaponry defeats orks, awakens tomb world. Eradicating the necrons makes the hive fleet that had passed the planet by turn around to come eat it)

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







yukishiro1 wrote:
...You don't spend dozens to hundreds of hours assembling and painting MTG cards. There is no real "hobby' side of things in the same way. It changes things dramatically in terms of how people relate to the game and to one another. MTG players aren't fellow hobbyists in the same way that 40k players are...


As with literally everything else about this discussion that varies wildly depending on your local community. 40k players are perfectly capable of being unrepentant powergamer-y donkey-caves while also painting their miniatures. MTG players are perfectly capable of being friendly and communal despite not painting miniatures. This whole "the MTG players have ruined your 40k community because 40k players are friendly and MTG players are dicks" discussion has very little connection to reality.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
...You don't spend dozens to hundreds of hours assembling and painting MTG cards. There is no real "hobby' side of things in the same way. It changes things dramatically in terms of how people relate to the game and to one another. MTG players aren't fellow hobbyists in the same way that 40k players are...


As with literally everything else about this discussion that varies wildly depending on your local community. 40k players are perfectly capable of being unrepentant powergamer-y donkey-caves while also painting their miniatures. MTG players are perfectly capable of being friendly and communal despite not painting miniatures. This whole "the MTG players have ruined your 40k community because 40k players are friendly and MTG players are dicks" discussion has very little connection to reality.


I guess I can only ask you to read my entire post, I can't actually force you to do it.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







yukishiro1 wrote:
...I guess I can only ask you to read my entire post, I can't actually force you to do it.


Not sure what I'm missing. I can summarize the rest of your post as "I don't want to insult MTG players but they have a worse community because they don't paint miniatures."

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:

I'm not interested in vilifying MTG or anything, I don't think it's particularly worse than most other gaming scenes.


 AnomanderRake wrote:

This whole "the MTG players have ruined your 40k community because 40k players are friendly and MTG players are dicks" discussion has very little connection to reality.



If you think that's a fair summary of what I wrote, I don't think it's my post that has very little to connection to reality.

I don't want to get into get into a pointless argument though, it just made me sad seeing someone crafting such a ridiculous straw man.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I'd encourage you to read the rest of your own post.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




When nerdy gamers turn into Karen's, its a sign of the apocalypse
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







bat702 wrote:
When nerdy gamers turn into Karen's, its a sign of the apocalypse


Is this the first obnoxious pedantic argument you've seen on Dakka? The apocalypse is running a ways behind.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




My best sign of the apocalypse so far is that people have lost their ability to think, and can only feel with their brains
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

A $600 prize will turn most any hobby league into a tournament. I mean, that's a competitive incentive- if the person who came up with it is surprised that people then play competitively, I'd question their thought process.

So given that this is, effectively, a competitive tournament, bending the rules for one player was the wrong call for sure. You don't change the rules halfway through.

Anyways- IMO, if you want a friendly play group, don't use prizes. Or at the very least, don't use prizes with monetary value.
   
 
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