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Really I'm just asking this out of curiosity; I'm fairly sure that this is a case of "just because I can doesn't mean I should", but it's been something that's come to mind a couple of times.

Illustration of what I am enquiring about:

1) I have unit of guardsmen, my opponent has unit of cultists. It is the shooting phase and I am considering that the guardsmen will shoot the cultists.
2) I have a Leman Russ tank between the guardsmen and the target. it is positioned in such a way that neither guardsmen or cultists can see each other around the sides of the tank, and nobody is high up enough to shoot over it...
3)...but technically speaking, the models can 'see' each other under the hull of the Russ between its tracks.

I would assume that, rules as written, the guardsmen who have line of sight under the tank can indeed shoot. I just wanted to really get a second opinion on this, and if it is rules legal is it a commonly used thing. Thanks in advance!

Steiner wrote:
Really I'm just asking this out of curiosity; I'm fairly sure that this is a case of "just because I can doesn't mean I should", but it's been something that's come to mind a couple of times.

Illustration of what I am enquiring about:

1) I have unit of guardsmen, my opponent has unit of cultists. It is the shooting phase and I am considering that the guardsmen will shoot the cultists.
2) I have a Leman Russ tank between the guardsmen and the target. it is positioned in such a way that neither guardsmen or cultists can see each other around the sides of the tank, and nobody is high up enough to shoot over it...
3)...but technically speaking, the models can 'see' each other under the hull of the Russ between its tracks.

I would assume that, rules as written, the guardsmen who have line of sight under the tank can indeed shoot. I just wanted to really get a second opinion on this, and if it is rules legal is it a commonly used thing. Thanks in advance!

If you can actually see through the intervening vehicle (between the tracks under the hull etc) then yes, you can draw line of sight through those gaps and shoot each other (line of sight is reciprocal). Folks occasionally grumble about it and its a good thing to point out to new/returning players, but its absolutely done.

Ah right, that was simply explained. Thanks for putting that to bed for me!

Yup, currently Line of Sight is determined in the most literal sense. Unless it's through or over a piece of terrain marked as Obscuring or they have a special rule that makes them otherwise untargetable, then as long as you can draw a 1mm thick line from any part of your model to any part of their model, you count as being able to see them for all intents and purposes and you can both shoot at each other.

Personally I hate this as it causes a fair amount of jank with advantages and disadvantages gained from how a model is physically modeled, but "thems the rules, whether you like it or not" as they say.

You don't even need to be able to draw a 1mm line, that's not in the rules. It doesn't matter how small or how marginal, even if it was 1/10th of 1mm it would be enough to shoot. Additionally, models can see through other models in their own unit (though not friendly models in a different unit) for these purposes.

That said, shooting is determined on a model by model basis, so technically you have to get down and spot for each individual model that's shooting through the Russ, and some of them probably will not be able to find even that tiny gap. So if someone tries to pull that on you, you're within your rights to insist on actual compliance and force them to spot for each model.

yukishiro1 wrote:
You don't even need to be able to draw a 1mm line, that's not in the rules. It doesn't matter how small or how marginal, even if it was 1/10th of 1mm it would be enough to shoot. Additionally, models can see through other models in their own unit (though not friendly models in a different unit) for these purposes.

That said, shooting is determined on a model by model basis, so technically you have to get down and spot for each individual model that's shooting through the Russ, and some of them probably will not be able to find even that tiny gap. So if someone tries to pull that on you, you're within your rights to insist on actual compliance and force them to spot for each model.

True, the 1mm thick requirement is only seen in terrain rules. Another strange and inconsistent detail that GW puts in their rules.

But... can you really bend down that far/secure your own actual LOS to determine your model's TLOS through the space below a tracked vehicle? I'd say the only way you can actually see that is if you have eyes really far apart where it aligns with the edge of your face when looked from the front.

Drawing TLOS through under a model on a flying stem is one thing, but to say you can 'see' under and through a tracked vehicle when your own sight is visually blocked is... gamey.

 skchsan wrote:
But... can you really bend down that far/secure your own actual LOS to determine your model's TLOS through the space below a tracked vehicle? I'd say the only way you can actually see that is if you have eyes really far apart where it aligns with the edge of your face when looked from the front.

Drawing TLOS through under a model on a flying stem is one thing, but to say you can 'see' under and through a tracked vehicle when your own sight is visually blocked is... gamey.

To be honest, the easiest way to solve a low sight picture is to use small or flat object. Not too hard actually. Try a small craft store wooden dowel or one of the old thin red rulers that came with starter boxes way back. If the ruler or object can be fit through and touch both models without bending, then you've got GW approved LoS under current rules.

In the case of the 1mm minimum used with terrain LoS, then you'll either need to get a 1mm dowel or decide that it's not worth the trouble and simply treat the enemy model as outside of LoS.

 skchsan wrote:
But... can you really bend down that far/secure your own actual LOS to determine your model's TLOS through the space below a tracked vehicle? I'd say the only way you can actually see that is if you have eyes really far apart where it aligns with the edge of your face when looked from the front.

Drawing TLOS through under a model on a flying stem is one thing, but to say you can 'see' under and through a tracked vehicle when your own sight is visually blocked is... gamey.

Some people determine TLOS by using a laser pointer and finding out if the laser beam can be seen on the target.

 doctortom wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
But... can you really bend down that far/secure your own actual LOS to determine your model's TLOS through the space below a tracked vehicle? I'd say the only way you can actually see that is if you have eyes really far apart where it aligns with the edge of your face when looked from the front.

Drawing TLOS through under a model on a flying stem is one thing, but to say you can 'see' under and through a tracked vehicle when your own sight is visually blocked is... gamey.

Some people determine TLOS by using a laser pointer and finding out if the laser beam can be seen on the target.

The camera on a phone works too. If you can take a photo from the model’s position then check the picture to see if something is visible.

Touche.

Both good options, each with their own pros and cons.

 doctortom wrote:

Some people determine TLOS by using a laser pointer and finding out if the laser beam can be seen on the target.

This is what I do. Got one for a couple of bucks. Solved so many arguments.

Sure, it does seem strange that a miniature can fire under a tank. I guess you have to imagine the squad going prone and firing while on their bellies. Not just how they're posed.

Jarms48 wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Some people determine TLOS by using a laser pointer and finding out if the laser beam can be seen on the target.

This is what I do. Got one for a couple of bucks. Solved so many arguments.

Sure, it does seem strange that a miniature can fire under a tank. I guess you have to imagine the squad going prone and firing while on their bellies. Not just how they're posed.

It is better to imagine that the rules are written to be abstract and not realistic.

Agreed, it is but a board game... a complex and badly written board game but still....
I did get a laugh imagining troops waiting around to shoot in turn, cursing because the tank 'maxed out move' and suddenly braked in front of them.