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Yet another RP question.

Reanimation Protocols: Each time an enemy unit shoots or fights, after it makes its attacks, if any models in this unit were destroyed as a result of those attacks but this unit was not destroyed, this unit's reanimation protocols are enacted and those destroyed models begin to reassemble.

Gun-crazy Show-offs: After this unit has shot in the Shooting phase, roll a D6. On a 6 the unit can immediately shoot again, but can only target the nearest enemy unit.

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

Unlike the other shoot twice effects, Flash Gitz is a trigger that also says "Immediatley".

Yes this came up in a game.

One is after it has shot, it has a chance to shoot again, not after then the necron unit can RP, that's how I would interpret that.

After the flash gitz made their attacks RP is resolved, then the gitz shoot again.

 p5freak wrote:
After the flash gitz made their attacks RP is resolved, then the gitz shoot again.

Except that both RP and CGSO are abilities that trigger at the same time, and sequencing says turn player picks.

RP has to go after FG has made it's attacks, which doesn't happen until after it's made ALL it's attacks, imo.

 p5freak wrote:
After the flash gitz made their attacks RP is resolved, then the gitz shoot again.

It seems to me that they collide and if they collide the player's whose turn it is chooses the order, which means no RP until both attacks resolve.

I would say that "immediately" trumps the RP wording, as the RP wording doesn't say "immediately" and so it can happen subsequent to any immediate effects and still be following the rules.

For RP, if you do the second shot before RP: Is it after the unit made all its attacks? Yes.

For the Show-Offs, did you do the second shot IMMEDIATELY after the first if you did RP in between them? No.

in one of these cases, the rules are broken.

How about we not rehash the RP versus Consolidation thread and stop now?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/797374.page

Except this is different from the normal "shoot again" or the sequencing of consolidate.

This is literally only an interaction between these two rules, that would be nice if it was answered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
After the flash gitz made their attacks RP is resolved, then the gitz shoot again.

It seems to me that they collide and if they collide the player's whose turn it is chooses the order, which means no RP until both attacks resolve.

That would mean you would have to roll both RP rolls after the fact.

In which case if the unit was wiped on the second round of shooting, would you still be able to roll the pool of dice from destroyed models on from the first round of shooting?

JOEY1175 wrote:


That would mean you would have to roll both RP rolls after the fact.

In which case if the unit was wiped on the second round of shooting, would you still be able to roll the pool of dice from destroyed models on from the first round of shooting?

I don't think so. The opponent chose what happened next, which means RP didn't happen. There isn't any way to "save" an interaction if the unit gets wiped. If it doesn't get wiped then there isn't a need to roll each batch, because you're just rolling them together anyway.

But the RP rule states EACH time. So, I would argue that it doesn't matter whether GCSO is triggered 'immediately' after the first volley. GCSO doesn't turn two instances of (shooting) attack into a single (shooting) attack.

You get to roll for RP each time the unit with this rule has any destroyed models when the attacking unit has finished making its attacks.

Obviously, if the first volley failed to destroy any models from a unit with this rule, RP will not proc for that first volley.

As an extension of numerous RP related posts of late, unspecified non-specific transitional words do not necessarily describe/prescribe/dictate a specific order in which things/rules get resolved. To claim transition words without specific order (this, then, and then) as to mean a specific order (i.e. first, then second, then third, etc), including the claims of 'they happen at the same time' is fallacious.

"They both happen after attack" is not the same thing as "they both happen at the same time".

Unspecified non-specific transition words merely describe the prerequisites/sequences, not absolute order of operations.

RP is the newer rule, so it takes precedence. Its meant to be resolved each time after a unit makes it attacks. When CGSO was written there was no RP like it is today.

 skchsan wrote:
But the RP rule states EACH time. So, I would argue that it doesn't matter whether GCSO is triggered 'immediately' after the first volley. GCSO doesn't turn two instances of (shooting) attack into a single (shooting) attack.

You get to roll for RP each time the unit with this rule has any destroyed models when the attacking unit has finished making its attacks.

Obviously, if the first volley failed to destroy any models from a unit with this rule, RP will not proc for that first volley.

As an extension of numerous RP related posts of late, unspecified transitional words do not necessarily describe/prescribe/dictate the order in which things/rules get resolved. To claim transition words without specific order (this, then, and then) as to mean a specific order (i.e. first, then second, then third, etc), including the claims of 'they happen at the same time' is fallacious.

"They both happen after attack" is not the same thing as "they both happen at the same time".

Unspecified transition words merely describe the prerequisites/sequences, not absolute order of operations.

skchsan has explained this as eloquently as I can think of. Taking into account GWs lack of technically tight rules crafting along with simple logic, you can see the "right" answer is the unit get RP before the Flash Gitz get to shoot again. You can say the RAW says they don't, but I am 99.9% sure the GW rules team will look at you like a two-headed martian if you tell them that list he way it works.

Shooting has a sequence of how the attacks are resolved. You can't roll for gun crazy show offs until the attacks from the original shooting attack are resolved.

You have to resolve RP at the end of the first shooting attack, which is before the roll for gun crazy show offs. If you are rolling for gun crazy show offs it is beyond that first shooting attack not the end of it.

Edit- in order to deny RP you need for it to take place during the same attack sequence, example given - additional shots or hits from rolling a 6 when rolling to hit. You cannot separate those into two pools of RP rolls they become one that is dealt with at thend of that attack- not at the same time as the begining of the next attack- if that were the case the opposing player could declare timing and select another unit to shoot or fight before the RP rolls which is nonsense.

 p5freak wrote:
RP is the newer rule, so it takes precedence. Its meant to be resolved each time after a unit makes it attacks. When CGSO was written there was no RP like it is today.

Sorry, but that's a stretch. Age of rules have nothing to do with determining 'priority'.

Just wanna throw my two cents in, but I think the usage of immediately in the Flash Gitz rule was intended to preclude getting a chance to select a different unit to shoot between the two times that the Flash Gitz shoot, where as most other Shoots twice or Fights twice rules simple make the unit eligible to be chosen again the respective phase.

This may in part be due to the other part of the rule that restricts the Flash Gitz second round shooting to the nearest enemy unit. If it merely made them eligible to shoot again, any other units could be used to attempt to wipe out whatever units are closer until the Flash Gitz could target the unit their owner wants them to shoot at.

 skchsan wrote:
But the RP rule states EACH time. So, I would argue that it doesn't matter whether GCSO is triggered 'immediately' after the first volley. GCSO doesn't turn two instances of (shooting) attack into a single (shooting) attack.

You get to roll for RP each time the unit with this rule has any destroyed models when the attacking unit has finished making its attacks.

Obviously, if the first volley failed to destroy any models from a unit with this rule, RP will not proc for that first volley.

As an extension of numerous RP related posts of late, unspecified non-specific transitional words do not necessarily describe/prescribe/dictate a specific order in which things/rules get resolved. To claim transition words without specific order (this, then, and then) as to mean a specific order (i.e. first, then second, then third, etc), including the claims of 'they happen at the same time' is fallacious.

"They both happen after attack" is not the same thing as "they both happen at the same time".

Unspecified non-specific transition words merely describe the prerequisites/sequences, not absolute order of operations.

The placement of the word "Immedietly" implies you perform the shooting right after the d6 roll has been succeded, there is no priority between those two actions for any other rules. I do not believe anyone is advocating for a RP roll after the d6 roll and before the shooting so we can pretty much ignore that text.

Even discounting the word "Immedietly"both RP and CGSO are conditional abilities and they trigger their condition at the exact same time. So you should use the SEQUENCE rules to choose the order in which these two abilities happen.

RAW I believe the turn player gets to choose the order. Both RP and CGSO wording says you perform their rule after "shooting", "shot", "attack"... per the core rules, all 3 of these words are synonymous while in the shooting phase.

When a unit shoots, select targets then resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.

Gun-crazy Show-offs: After this unit has shot in the Shooting phase, roll a D6. On a 6 the unit can immediately shoot again, but can only target the nearest enemy unit.

Reanimation Protocols would occur after the Shooting phase but before rolling the D6.

 Ghaz wrote:

Gun-crazy Show-offs: After this unit has shot in the Shooting phase, roll a D6. On a 6 the unit can immediately shoot again, but can only target the nearest enemy unit.

Reanimation Protocols would occur after the Shooting phase but before rolling the D6.

I assume you mean after they shot in the shooting phase.

Why do you think so? RP happens "after a unit attacks"

 Ghaz wrote:

Gun-crazy Show-offs: After this unit has shot in the Shooting phase, roll a D6. On a 6 the unit can immediately shoot again, but can only target the nearest enemy unit.

Reanimation Protocols would occur after the Shooting phase but before rolling the D6.

This correctly points out that immediately isn't what it's important here, as immediately modifiers what you do after rolling the D6. However, it doesn't resolve whether you roll the D6 first, or whether you do RP first.

RP happens "each time an enemy unit shoots or fights, after a unit makes its attacks;" the D6 is rolled "after this unit has shot in the Shooting phase." If the flash gitz rule said it happened "after the unit resolves its attacks from shooting," I think it would happen at the exact same time, and RAW sequencing would determine it. Because it says "after the unit has shot," to me that implies you have fully resolved the first set of shots, which would include any RP triggering off those shots.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Gun-crazy Show-offs: After this unit has shot in the Shooting phase, roll a D6. On a 6 the unit can immediately shoot again, but can only target the nearest enemy unit.

Reanimation Protocols would occur after the Shooting phase but before rolling the D6.

I assume you mean after they shot in the shooting phase.

Why do you think so? RP happens "after a unit attacks"

Which they have done, since the Rare Rules for 'Shoot Again' tells us the following:

If a rule allows a unit, model or weapon to shoot again, then it must completely resolve its first shooting attack before resolving the second.

So again, that would mean that you would roll the Reanimation Protocols before you roll the D6 as it is after the Flash Gitz have attacked. Then if you roll a 6 and shoot at the same unit again you would roll Reanimation Protocols again after shooting as it's once more "after a unit attacks".

I think that's right. RP occurs as part of the first time the unit shoots; it occurs after the attacks have been made, but before the unit is technically done shooting: RP effectively becomes part of the shooting sequence. If RP instead said "after a unit shoots," then it would occur at the same time as the D6 roll and be sequenced.

@Tittliewinks22 If you took RP roll after the second volley has procced via GCSO, then:
1. how many times do you resolve RP? Once or twice? then,
2. how many casualties do you take into consideration for the first roll? second roll? If they only roll once, do you consider the total casualty? or up to the first volley only? Subsequently then,
3. if, due to specificity of GCSO's targeting restrictions, two units with RP suffered casualties. Do you take the total casualties across the two units? each unit individually?
4. What if the first attack was split, with only half targetting the closest unit?

Side bar - I'm going to call the next RP related is going to be explodes! vs. RP.

I agree you have to completely resolve the shooting in order to RP

You also need to completley resolve the shooting in order to CGSO.

Other forms of shoot twice come in 2 forms, a passive rule always in effect, or a strategem.

GRINDING ADVANCE
If this model Remains Stationary or moves under half speed in its Movement phase (i.e. it moves a distance in inches less than half of its current Move characteristic) it can shoot its turret weapon twice in the following Shooting phase (the turret weapon must target the same unit both times).

Use this Stratagem immediately after resolving a shooting attack with a BAD MOONS INFANTRY unit from your army. That unit can shoot all of its weapons a second time. This Stratagem can only be used once per phase.

Unlike these, CGSO is not a shoot twice rule, it is a d6 roll rule. Rolling the d6 after the attack is mandatory and happens at the same time as RP rolls. Shooting is optional, though i dont see many reasons you wouldnt.

If CGSO had the exact same wording it does now but replace "can immediatley shoot" with "can immediatley do any other action besides shoot" then it would still have the same timing restrictions.

The wording of RP and CGSO is identical for timing. Dont get hung up on the shoot again part. The rule is to roll a d6 after the unit shoots.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think that's right. RP occurs as part of the first time the unit shoots; it occurs after the attacks have been made, but before the unit is technically done shooting: RP effectively becomes part of the shooting sequence. If RP instead said "after a unit shoots," then it would occur at the same time as the D6 roll and be sequenced.

RP and CGSO are worded the same way effectivley. The shooting phase core rules define shooting as an attack, the core rules define resolving an attack as to hit, to wound, saves, allocate damage.

Edit: had the fight phase on the brain. nevermind.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Flash Gitz Crazy Gun Show-Offs happens "After this unit has shot in the Shooting phase" This is after the unit performs its consolidation move.


Reanimation Protocols happens after a unit makes its attacks (which occurs at the same time as the consolidation move.

RP goes off before the unit can use Crazy Gun Show-Offs

False. You don't consolidate during shooting phase.

This topic must be so hot that it incentived two new members to join just to post on this topic within span of two hours.

"Each time an enemy unit shoots"
"after it makes its attacks"
"After this unit has shot"

All of these mean the same thing as defined by the core rules for shooting.

RP is a rule that applies at the same time as other rules.

People are hung up on CGSO being a pseudo shoot again. CGSO is a d6 chance at a shoot again. The d6 roll is not resolving another shot, it is determining if the unit can shoot again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:
@Tittliewinks22 If you took RP roll after the second volley has procced via GCSO, then:
1. how many times do you resolve RP? Once or twice? then,
2. how many casualties do you take into consideration for the first roll? second roll? If they only roll once, do you consider the total casualty? or up to the first volley only? Subsequently then,
3. if, due to specificity of GCSO's targeting restrictions, two units with RP suffered casualties. Do you take the total casualties across the two units? each unit individually?
4. What if the first attack was split, with only half targetting the closest unit?

Side bar - I'm going to call the next RP related is going to be explodes! vs. RP.

No idea, thats a whole new can of worms. From the impression im getting from people is that RP trumps any other rule ever in exsistance, if you have a rule that lets you do something after an attack, too bad RP first... the thing is, RP is not worded as an amendment to resolving attack sequence. There won't be any definate resolution until it gets faq'd, but I suspect the new ork book will have dropped by then and changed CGSO to be something more akin to Castellan robots to double shots rather than shoot a second time

 skchsan wrote:
This topic must be so hot that it incentived two new members to join just to post on this topic within span of two hours.

Yep, nevermind, thought it was talking about the fight phase because of recent discussions. (Had the fight phase on the brain).

 skchsan wrote:

This topic must be so hot that it incentived two new members to join just to post on this topic within span of two hours.

Happened in our game and while searching for an answer we found dakka chock full of RP debates ans thought this one is different enough.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:
"Each time an enemy unit shoots"
"after it makes its attacks"
"After this unit has shot"

All of these mean the same thing as defined by the core rules for shooting.

This isn't correct. I mean, feel free to quote whatever you're basing it on I guess. But I don't think "after it makes its attacks" is the same as "after it has shot," any more than "after it has made its attacks" is the same as "after a unit fights" (which is unambiguously is not, since consolidation is part of fighting). Anything that happens "after a unit makes its attacks" still happens during that shooting activation; the d6 isn't rolled until after the shooting activation is wholly complete.