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Vanari Bladelords are a unit that has hit an interesting place of being almost completely useless in the role it was intended for. How so? Well for one I believe they are extremely over designed, and seem to lack their battlefield role that they were intended for. Instead becoming glorified bodyguards. Which stinks for such an interesting unit.


1. Vanari's Two weapon profiles are incredibly situational and can be easily played around. If a Vanari Bladelord runs after a character and uses their perfect strike, that means all 6 weapon attacks have to hit. And unforunately they don't do enough attacks to really matter. The Weapon Profile for 2"s is incredibly easy to play around and also leads to them being very bad at what they do. And with no rend incredibly easy to save against.

2. Despite being called a Sunmetal Weapon, does not have sunmetal damage. Meaning they are point for point weaker than a unit of Wardens.

3. Bodyguard role prevents them from chasing infantry units meaning they are used wrong if you use them for any other purpose

4. There is a great sunmetal blade profile inside of the battletome under the Purifier's options. Which is quite hefty and powerful. The fact that the sunmetal greatblade has three profiles will probably lead to great debates because they are named the Exact same thing.


5. (NEW) People can ignore their magic immunity by just aiming at the hero the whole time. Thus bypassing their magical save. As the ability doesn't apply to the hero they are guarding. Thus defeating them entirely. There is no reason on the planet earth to target the Bladelords with spells. They are not a threat, they are just wound absorption.

So how would we go about fixing this? Bladelords and many units recently just seem overdesigned just not properly thought through, like Gardus Steel Soul, and the new Night Haunt model.

I don't know if I could convince my opponent that because they are literally called SUNMETAL Greatblades they should have the sunmetal keyword from the battletome. The fact that it doesn't means they are extremely medicore and only useful as a wound battery for your Wizards.

I wonder if the fact they can bodyguard the auto hold an objective guy led to them having their melee power reduced during development.

Because you're right they're a really long winded way of ending up a bit meh outside of catching wounds.

"Magical defense" goes both ways. Remember that all it will take is one FAQ to remove the "can" from the Vanashimor Banners and they have a 50/50 shot at ignoring the effects of a friendly spell.
Also, Mind's Edge does not have the Vanashimor Banner rule...or the same banner design.


Also, not sure what you're on about with #5. Go ahead, aim for the hero. If the Bladelords are in 3" of the Scinari hero being targeted? You still get the 2+ bodyguard roll vs Mortal Wounds.

They don't really need fixing. They don't need to be something crazy. Additionally, "Perfect Strike" always hits. It's literally right there in the "Swordmasters" special rule. It's a 2" range, 1 attack, "See Below" to Hit, 2+ to Wound, with a -2 Rend and 1 damage.
Flurry of Blows and the Sunmetal Dual Blades are the only ones which roll to hit.

Also, not sure what you're on about with #5. Go ahead, aim for the hero. If the Bladelords are in 3" of the Scinari hero being targeted? You still get the 2+ bodyguard roll vs Mortal Wounds.

They're saying that if you target the hero, then yes you can pass the wound off but you don't get the Vanari banner against it.
or... would you?

edit: Caster does 3MW to your Scinari, you trade off all 3 to Vanari Bladelords, and now do they get the 4+ to ignore that spell? Since it's the spell causing damage which is transferred to them... I think that may be how it works?

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Magical defense" goes both ways. Remember that all it will take is one FAQ to remove the "can" from the Vanashimor Banners and they have a 50/50 shot at ignoring the effects of a friendly spell.
Also, Mind's Edge does not have the Vanashimor Banner rule...or the same banner design.

Spoiler:

Also, not sure what you're on about with #5. Go ahead, aim for the hero. If the Bladelords are in 3" of the Scinari hero being targeted? You still get the 2+ bodyguard roll vs Mortal Wounds.

They don't really need fixing. They don't need to be something crazy. Additionally, "Perfect Strike" always hits. It's literally right there in the "Swordmasters" special rule. It's a 2" range, 1 attack, "See Below" to Hit, 2+ to Wound, with a -2 Rend and 1 damage.
Flurry of Blows and the Sunmetal Dual Blades are the only ones which roll to hit.

Why would they remove can? It's normal for these. Teclis aura　is can also. Lots of negations are　can.

For 5 sure you get 2+ transfer. Spell then kills　bladelord on 2+ rather than 1-3(5/6 odds vs 1/2)

Perfect strike worse than warden even if you have equal numbers. Of course you have half. You would need 6or so models for　sweep to equal equal points wardens. Perfect strike　is worse. Perfect strike is only desperate backup for　situations you are crushing anyway or have screwed up. If you want efficiency you never get to point you use it. Those times wardens are better.

Well for points bladelords　suck　in melee. Wardens all the way

Stoneguard also perform much better than Bladelords which is just pathetic.

The house rules I am currently running with is that I replace the 2" rule with (for every 5 models in a unit gain 1 attack)
And each model in that unit of bladelords gets that benefit. Meaning if your facing a unit of 20, you get 4 attacks each for all the bladelords, except the Senschal who gets 5.

In addition they all get sunmetal weapons as an ability on base.That basically fixes them from what I've seen. And makes them less situational and less able to get punished because of an opponent deciding to go into a Kongo Line to screw over your blade lords abilities.

 Asherian Command wrote:

3. Bodyguard role prevents them from chasing infantry units

It factually does not.

 Asherian Command wrote:
meaning they are used wrong if you use them for any other purpose

An opinion, but not a fact.
I'm using them because A) I really like the models. B) with a few Sincari heroes I can also use some of them as Battleline. Wich of those is uses is wrong?
Sure, maybe one unit is pulling bodyguard duty with the Lore Seeker. But I'd ideally be supporting him anyways. And I'm not afraid to move them about/away if needed. Whatever it takes to win.
My Caligrave though? He's rarely in a position where he needs a bodyguard unit. He sits back with the Ballista. "His" unit definitely goes on the hunt for other infantry/objectives. And they get ALOT of attacks when they catch those infantry.
I also invest in units of 10 or sometimes the full 15, not just the minimum. So don't give me this crap about them not doing enough wounds vs characters matter on perfect strike.
Your min. units might not get the job done in theory-hammer land, my larger ones often do on the table.

It factually does not.

Leaving your character completely unguarded, is a possibility. But I don't know if that would be benefical to do or not. They have a massive purpose of holding objectives with a character. Clearly you don't want them sitting around. In most cases you take a full group of them throw them in with a loreseeker and they are great. but you are investing 240 pts and sending them into combat with a very lack luster weapon and attack profile

You are investing 240 into a wound magnet and thats about it. It doesn't do as much as Stoneguard who do more attacks and also are cheaper and have a better armor save and rules.

An opinion, but not a fact.

Yes. Like everything?

I am just saying they aren't good for the role they are described literally in the stories, and in the lore. And also don't match their models. So my point is that you can take Stoneguard and they will deal more damage statistically and also cost significantly less.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Stoneguard also perform much better than Bladelords which is just pathetic.

The house rules I am currently running with is that I replace the 2" rule with (for every 5 models in a unit gain 1 attack)
And each model in that unit of bladelords gets that benefit. Meaning if your facing a unit of 20, you get 4 attacks each for all the bladelords, except the Senschal who gets 5.

In addition they all get sunmetal weapons as an ability on base.That basically fixes them from what I've seen. And makes them less situational and less able to get punished because of an opponent deciding to go into a Kongo Line to screw over your blade lords abilities.

You must have some extremely agreeable friends. Maybe I'll try saying that my suspension of disbelief about the power of elves isn't reflected in the rules and sun metal triggers on a 4+ or 3+ with power of Hysh. I'm sure it'll go over well with my gaming group, and I'll definitely feel fulfilled after trouncing them.

No offense, but if damage output is your litmus test for a unit's game efficacy, I don't know if Lumineth is the correct faction for you.

I think they are extremely well designed, and by design are a unit difficult to play well. They have a lot of flexibility and finesse which lends them to being very efficient in the hands of a skilled player, but that comes with a steep learning curve. Looking at their damage output to assess usefulness is already missing the point in the first place.

Asking for more sunmetal is IMO awful, since that is in my eyes the worst mechanic of the entire army. Easily seen in that the strongest Lumineth build is to spam wardens and sentinels. Sunmetal weapons is a problem, not a solution. It is going to result in those units getting further point increases, and they aren't cheap to begin with. Sunmetal MWs should always have triggered on the WOUND roll, not the hit roll.

MWs on 6s to hit is a plague on AoS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Magical defense" goes both ways. Remember that all it will take is one FAQ to remove the "can" from the Vanashimor Banners and they have a 50/50 shot at ignoring the effects of a friendly spell.

Well there have been similar effects in existence since the launch of AoS and none of them have been changed as you described. There is no reason whatsoever to worry about that happening.

 Bloviator wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Stoneguard also perform much better than Bladelords which is just pathetic.

The house rules I am currently running with is that I replace the 2" rule with (for every 5 models in a unit gain 1 attack)
And each model in that unit of bladelords gets that benefit. Meaning if your facing a unit of 20, you get 4 attacks each for all the bladelords, except the Senschal who gets 5.

In addition they all get sunmetal weapons as an ability on base.That basically fixes them from what I've seen. And makes them less situational and less able to get punished because of an opponent deciding to go into a Kongo Line to screw over your blade lords abilities.

You must have some extremely agreeable friends. Maybe I'll try saying that my suspension of disbelief about the power of elves isn't reflected in the rules and sun metal triggers on a 4+ or 3+ with power of Hysh. I'm sure it'll go over well with my gaming group, and I'll definitely feel fulfilled after trouncing them.

No offense, but if damage output is your litmus test for a unit's game efficacy, I don't know if Lumineth is the correct faction for you.

Nope. If anything my biggest change that we do in games is we usually just count sunmetals as exploding attacks. So its +6 ---> +1 attack. And yes, I would hope so considering all of us have been stuck with each other for literally a year.

And damage out put is not my litmus test, its more of "Does this fit the battlefield role its supposed to do?" No? Then it doesn't work. The bodyguard rule is really the only benefit to using the bladelords, but if you want a unit to put out attacks you take anything but Bladelords. Wardens on base do more damage. The only benefit they have is the 2" range which is easily countered. Again they are poorly designed with their weapon stats. Me offering that as a counter point for less randomness in the game is not 'dumb' or 'silly' I am mostly pointing out something literally named Sunmetal doesn't get Sunmetal as a rule.

Thats like a Bolter not getting the Bolter rule. There is no justification for it, me saying its a poorly designed unit is literally pointing to its weapon profiles and saying it doesn't fit, cause we have an example of a greatsword in the codex that already exists. IF you read my points would've seen that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think they are extremely well designed, and by design are a unit difficult to play well. They have a lot of flexibility and finesse which lends them to being very efficient in the hands of a skilled player, but that comes with a steep learning curve. Looking at their damage output to assess usefulness is already missing the point in the first place.

Asking for more sunmetal is IMO awful, since that is in my eyes the worst mechanic of the entire army. Easily seen in that the strongest Lumineth build is to spam wardens and sentinels. Sunmetal weapons is a problem, not a solution. It is going to result in those units getting further point increases, and they aren't cheap to begin with. Sunmetal MWs should always have triggered on the WOUND roll, not the hit roll.

MWs on 6s to hit is a plague on AoS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Magical defense" goes both ways. Remember that all it will take is one FAQ to remove the "can" from the Vanashimor Banners and they have a 50/50 shot at ignoring the effects of a friendly spell.

Well there have been similar effects in existence since the launch of AoS and none of them have been changed as you described. There is no reason whatsoever to worry about that happening.

I don't call them well designed, they are a bit of an overdesigned unit which has had rules clearly stripped out of it. Such as perfect strike in most cases just being utterly horrible for what it wants to do. Its great against heroes, but if you encounter elite infantry you might as well remove the bladelords off the field. But sunmetal is literally the Lumineth's defining mechanic currently, other than aetherquartz. Removing it is kind of silly. If anything I would change Sunmetal to just be killingblow on 6s for wounds like you say, but 6s to hit generate an additional attack. They are elves and that has been a rule before. Especially for swordmasters.

Considering the vast majority of Lumineth don't have sunmetal weapons I do not see how it is a defining characteristic.

You say Bladelords do not fit their role, what do you see that role as being?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think they are extremely well designed, and by design are a unit difficult to play well. They have a lot of flexibility and finesse which lends them to being very efficient in the hands of a skilled player, but that comes with a steep learning curve. Looking at their damage output to assess usefulness is already missing the point in the first place.

Asking for more sunmetal is IMO awful, since that is in my eyes the worst mechanic of the entire army. Easily seen in that the strongest Lumineth build is to spam wardens and sentinels. Sunmetal weapons is a problem, not a solution. It is going to result in those units getting further point increases, and they aren't cheap to begin with. Sunmetal MWs should always have triggered on the WOUND roll, not the hit roll.

MWs on 6s to hit is a plague on AoS.

I agree and I disagree on this note. The "spam Wardens and Sentinels" is strong because Wardens are effectively a 2 for 1 Battleline deal and Sentinels are a super weird unit with regards to what they do. I think that Sunmetal Weapons is one of the more interesting ways to showcase Elven lethality and skill without just heaping special rules all over them like we saw in editions past.

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Magical defense" goes both ways. Remember that all it will take is one FAQ to remove the "can" from the Vanashimor Banners and they have a 50/50 shot at ignoring the effects of a friendly spell.

Well there have been similar effects in existence since the launch of AoS and none of them have been changed as you described. There is no reason whatsoever to worry about that happening.

Ethereal is a flat denial to enemy Rend and friendly save buffs.

Note that I'm not saying "IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!". Just that it could, and Ethereal is a good example to go by of that design ethos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Considering the vast majority of Lumineth don't have sunmetal weapons I do not see how it is a defining characteristic.

It is a Vanari thing rather than a Lumineth thing. Definitely agree that it's not a Lumineth defining characteristic. Only things I can find for Vanari without it are the ballista and the Bladelords.

You say Bladelords do not fit their role, what do you see that role as being?

Apparently he sees them as bodyguards only or something? I dunno. I like Bladelords myself.