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I was watching a video talking about the similarities between the new models being released for the sisters of battle and units available for the space marines and a comment I saw posed the theory that the sisters are being turned into the firstborn marines as they are being replaced with the Primaris in the main SM Codex. This isn't a perfect one to one thing but I can't help but see a lot in this, especially with the new stuff and I am wondering people's opinions on this.

The video:

   
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Considering that both are Elite Imperium forces who wear Power Armour and use Rhino based vehicles they have always had some similarities.

Click bait video with little actual point.

Spot the difference between a Old marines Rhino and a old Sisters Rhino compared to the Castigator/Predator.

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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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Yea they kind of are.

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Not more than Primaris do. Heck, with that comparison you could say Chaos Space Marines are replacing Firstborn as they share many more units than Sororitas with them.
   
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No they will not.

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Not in a literal sense I think but they will definitely be using some of their gear. Really it makes sense that as space marines are moving onto bigger better gear their old stuff and resources are going to get allocated to the people that are currently using them (IE rhinos chassis vehicles). I wouldn't be surprised if some smaller scale marine stuff makes its way to sisters at some point, like land raiders (although correct me if I am wrong they may have had those before or it was witch hunters). This would keep some classic kits relevant and usable as Marines move on to bigger better things.

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The Indomitus Era forced the Imperium to weaponize and mobilize every tool at its disposal- it's why the Custodes are fighting beyond Terra; it's why the SoS are more frequently seen in combat roles, and it will lead to a greater mobilization of SoB than ever before.

Exorcists are ancient and rare, and even Immolators have a touch of that. Castigators, I suspect, will be more recent and common, and easier to produce. Before Indomitus, sisters were deployed en masse, to be sure, but nowhere near the degree to which they will be deployed in Indomitus. In days gone by, the mobile shrines- Exorcists and Immolators may have been enough. But now, they need more... And the Castigator, by virtue of the relative availability of its STC, will be their go-to option for filling in gaps.

That's the fluff part- or a possible fluff part.

But from a design perspective, this is an army whose roster hasn't been updated forever. Sisters players have been holding the fort so long we've become accustomed to Nothing New Ever. As that changes, people will have knee jerk reactions to change- we've already seen it. This will continue, and it may even cost us some of the "I was playing sisters before they were cool" crowd.But the army needs to grow; those who seek to restrict it to its previous status as a second class army, even if it's with the best of intentions or a misguided sense of nostalgia, aren't doing us any favours.

In the days of Kill'em All, Ride the Lightning and Master of Puppets, none of us saw Bob Rock and the Black Album on the way, though a few particularly astute rockers saw the signs with One off And Justice for All. Some of us walked away, but many times many more came to fill our shoes, and while they may not be the same band, I'd argue they're still a pretty good band. It took me awhile to appreciate the new band, having loved the old so much. But I'm wiser now; different doesn't have to be bad.

And on the marine front, everyone is certain old marines are going. I'm not. It's not a hill I'm gonna die on- squatting old marines is certainly plausible. But I always thought that that if GW wanted to replicate a schism on the scale of the Horus Heresy for the modern era, Old Marine vs. Primaris is certainly a way to do it. I think 30k was popular enough that GW might want to keep the door open.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/28 20:56:34


 
   
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I don't think Sisters will be replacing First-Born. My personal opinion is:

By 10th edition we'll see codex Space Marines split into codex Space Marines: First-born and codex Space Marines: Primaris. Both codex options will be able to ally together in the same army without breaking any detachment abilities.

This is largely due to codex bloat and the fact that GW will keep releasing more Primaris content. This codex First-born would likely have many of its characters removed as they cross the Rubicon and be added to codex Primaris instead.

There will be a gradual loss of units to legends over 11th and 12th edition in codex First-born. Any characters not having gone over Rubicon will be killed off in combat or having died during the Rubicon process. 13th edition will then see all the remaining First-born go to legends and codex Primaris would then on be called solely codex Space Marines.

Though this would assume GW have a plan spanning about 10 years for the Space Marine model line.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/30 00:32:10


 
   
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I think the Lore of the Castigator is that it was always there, at least based on their little blurb.

It makes sense that the Sisters would have a Predator though, because they have significant commonality with Marines as is.




I have some issues with the new Sisters tanks in general though, lore wise. They should not be on the MkIC Deimos-Pattern hull.
The Ministorium coordinated with the Adeptus Mechanicus to create the Immolator tank in M35, by integrating a partial schematic for a IFV with the Rhino hull. This would also almost certainly play a role in the later development of the Razorback as well, given the vehicles themselves are essentially identical [especially the MkIb and MkIIc variants of each] with the Razorback basically being an improved version introduced 1 millennia later which does away with the gunner and moves the turret to the rear.
Anyway, at the point the Immolator would be developed, the MkIC pattern hull had been replaced in production with the improved MkIIC since soon after the Horus Heresy.

To quickly cover Immolator, Razorback, and Rhino hulls there are the:
Rhino:
MkIB: Had 4 large road wheels in 2 bogies on 2, no raised idlers, and a lower ground clearance overall. Used before the Horus Heresy, replaced by the MkIC by the time of the Heresy.
MkIC: The "Deimos" pattern, used through the Horus Heresy. Five smaller road wheels, and also had raised idlers at the front and back for improved ground clearance.
MkIIC: The current rhino, introduced after the Horus Heresy. Multiple improvements over the Deimos, including square drop-ramp doors, a single piece glacis instead of the two separate panels, an improved cupola, and RUWS for the storm bolter.
MkIIIA: The "Sisters of Battle Rhino" from before the most recent update. A MkIIC with an enlarged upperworks featuring a prominent central cupola and a split-door round firing hatch on the top. This type was produced concurrently in limited numbers with the MkIIC [and now must be discontinued].

[As a side note, given that the external difference between the MkIC and MkIIC are relatively minor changes: door type, glacis construction, plus a cupola and RUWS storm bolter, I have to wonder why the Deimos pattern was designated the MKIC instead of the MKIIA or something. The massive difference between the IB and IC's entire form factor wasn't worth of a new model number, but improved doors was?]

Immolator:
MkI: Has a manned turret consisting of a metal shield and guns on the forward part of a MkIb rhino hull
MkIIC: 'Sanctorum' pattern consists of a low profile turret almost identical in design to the "wide guns" type Razorback turrets, except on the front part of the MkIIC hull and offset to one side slightly. The turret is also manned, with a shield for the operator in the space that the Razorback turret has the sensor optics.
MkIIIC: Has the manned bubble canopy open turret on a MKIIIA Rhino hull.
"New One": Has a much larger turret with the huge window and guns inside the turret, apparently on a MkIC 'Deimos' Hull. The turret is completely unlike all the other turrets.

Razorback:
MkIB: Has a manned turret of a metal shield and guns on the back part of a MkIb rhino hull
MkIIC: Has a remote unmanned turret of either "wide guns" type with a large sensor package in between the gun, or a "narrow guns" with a smaller sensor hood on top of the guns, is on the MkIIC hull.


We know that the Immolator was invented in M35, and the Razorback in M36. Now, obviously, the reality of the MkIB variants of the Immolator and Razorback is that they existed as units before the Rhino chassis was redone from the MkIB to the MkIIC type chassis. To explain them lore wise they can be assumed to be conversion kits for the older type as the older hulls were returned from mothballs to meet demand before full production of the Razorback and Immolator on currently produced hulls could meet demands, since they're pretty much bolt-on turrets, and the razorback's version isn't even unmanned like all other razorbacks which indicated they're probably the same stopgap.

However, there's no good explanation for why the new Exorcist and Immolator kits are on the MkIC hull.

The massive turret difference and integrated hull "flair" modifications indicate that the "New Type" Immolator and Exorcist cannot be field conversion kits from M35 to rapidly convert mothballed MkIC's into usable IFV's and tank destroyers

This requires production to have been resumed of the MkIC hull explicitly for the purpose of creating new Immolators and Exorcists. This makes no sense considering that the design for either was never created with the MkIC hull in mind. Both were invents long after the MkIIC hull was the universal standard of Rhino hull production and all remaining MkIC's were in mothballs or held as relics. All the other variants actually work pretty nicely with the Rhino timeline and with each other, but the new pattern Immolator and Exorcist require them to commission a redesign of the tanks some time since M36, and while doing so decide to restart production of the obsolete version of the chassis from M31 [for which the tooling has been implied to have been destroyed during the Heresy] for these redesigned tanks, which is a decision that has no benefits and only drawbacks compared to the then presently in-service designs.





Personally, I've gone out of my way to acquire and extra set of plates from the old Exorcist kit so that when I get new Castigators I can use MkIIC hulls for them with the Exorcist plating for visual continuity with my extant collection.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/30 00:41:46


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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I mean if they ever squat the minimarines, and refuse to to give the Primaris access to the old marine vehicles, then Sisters should definitely inherit those vehicles. SoB already use Rhinos, they were just given 'Predator' so they might as well get the rest of them too. Hell, in some of the past editions you could have Sisters in Land Raiders and I'd like to see that brought back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
However, there's no good explanation for why the new Exorcist and Immolator kits are on the MkIC hull.

Because its more ornate and archaic look fits the SoB aesthetics better than the sleeker and more scify mark II hull. I was a bit disappointed that they only used the Deimos hull for the SoB battle tanks and not for their Rhinos too.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 01:09:09


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They aren't replacing marines - GW were just lazy with their design.

Wouldn't hurt for them to be a little more lazy in the future and give the sisters back the eviscerators they 'borrowed' for the marines. Or perhaps the bladestorm they borrowed for the eldar...


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The Ministorium coordinated with the Adeptus Mechanicus to create the Immolator tank in M35, by integrating a partial schematic for a IFV with the Rhino hull. This would also almost certainly play a role in the later development of the Razorback as well, given the vehicles themselves are essentially identical
The old forgeworld lore was:

Razorback - believed to match records of an old troop-carrying precursor to the predator tank (IA2). There is even a semi-official razorback chassis with sponsons (the rikarius)

Immolator - half completed files for a flamethrower tank, enough was recovered for a flamethrower that they fitted to a regular rhino.
The admech would later recover more of the files and use them to create the hellhound tank (2nd edition sisters codex)
   
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A.T. wrote:
They aren't replacing marines - GW were just lazy with their design.

Wouldn't hurt for them to be a little more lazy in the future and give the sisters back the eviscerators they 'borrowed' for the marines. Or perhaps the bladestorm they borrowed for the eldar...


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The Ministorium coordinated with the Adeptus Mechanicus to create the Immolator tank in M35, by integrating a partial schematic for a IFV with the Rhino hull. This would also almost certainly play a role in the later development of the Razorback as well, given the vehicles themselves are essentially identical
The old forgeworld lore was:

Razorback - believed to match records of an old troop-carrying precursor to the predator tank (IA2). There is even a semi-official razorback chassis with sponsons (the rikarius)

Immolator - half completed files for a flamethrower tank, enough was recovered for a flamethrower that they fitted to a regular rhino.
The admech would later recover more of the files and use them to create the hellhound tank (2nd edition sisters codex)


The blurb in the IA2 manual says:

The Immolator was discovered in M35 as an incomplete STC by the Frateris Militia. It was reconstructed using the Rhino hull by the AdMech, and entered into an exclusive contract.
The Razorback was discovered in M36 and a complete STC. Given the rumors that there was a Predator troop-carrying variant, it was sanctioned for production under this assumption.

It's worth mention as well that there's only one STC version of the Predator with any weapons overlap with the Razorback, and that's the special Baal pattern [which has some problems with its timeline]. The Predator Annihilator, from the same IA manual, was created as a field modification of the Predator destructor by the Space Wolves in M36 and doesn't have an STC. Given that the Assault Cannon is a post-heresy development, the AC Razorback also cannot be said to be a pre-crusade troop-carrying Predator.


Given that the Sanctorum Immolator and FW-produced "wide type" razorback turrets are really similar with the difference being location on the hull and the change of a gunner to an automated system, I suspect that it may be the same STC, and the Razorback is the complete version and the Immolator the incomplete "fill in the gaps" version.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
I mean if they ever squat the minimarines, and refuse to to give the Primaris access to the old marine vehicles, then Sisters should definitely inherit those vehicles. SoB already use Rhinos, they were just given 'Predator' so they might as well get the rest of them too. Hell, in some of the past editions you could have Sisters in Land Raiders and I'd like to see that brought back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
However, there's no good explanation for why the new Exorcist and Immolator kits are on the MkIC hull.

Because its more ornate and archaic look fits the SoB aesthetics better than the sleeker and more scify mark II hull. I was a bit disappointed that they only used the Deimos hull for the SoB battle tanks and not for their Rhinos too.




It's not like the "normal" heresy-era production MkIC hull looks particularly baroque or ornamented. All the baroque ornamentation is added on after words, and adds on just fine to the MkIIC hull.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/30 01:32:12


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

It's not like the "normal" heresy-era production MkIC hull looks particularly baroque or ornamented. All the baroque ornamentation is added on after words, and adds on just fine to the MkIIC hull.

The round exhausts definitely go better with the baroque style.

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 Crimson wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

It's not like the "normal" heresy-era production MkIC hull looks particularly baroque or ornamented. All the baroque ornamentation is added on after words, and adds on just fine to the MkIIC hull.

The round exhausts definitely go better with the baroque style.


And if its not baroque, don't fix it.

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You guys know your tanks- this thread got real cool.

I never had or read any of the IA books, so thanks for the breakdown.
   
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in a way, sorta. Sisters are an army aimed at nostalgic collectors - marines aren't that anymore. They're a sort of FOMO limited edition splash release every couple months and just throw it on the pile to rot kind of army aimed to get new hobbyists in the door and keep whale buyers eternally buying.

If you dislike the constant churn the new marines are going to burn you out, and yeah, sisters have that classic style and they seem to be designed to be a 'everything is as you remember, everything new is within safe parameters of the stuff you like and we're reasonably certain you'll enjoy the small variations on theme' type army.


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PenitentJake wrote:You guys know your tanks- this thread got real cool.

I never had or read any of the IA books, so thanks for the breakdown.


You're welcome!


the_scotsman wrote:in a way, sorta. Sisters are an army aimed at nostalgic collectors - marines aren't that anymore. They're a sort of FOMO limited edition splash release every couple months and just throw it on the pile to rot kind of army aimed to get new hobbyists in the door and keep whale buyers eternally buying.

If you dislike the constant churn the new marines are going to burn you out, and yeah, sisters have that classic style and they seem to be designed to be a 'everything is as you remember, everything new is within safe parameters of the stuff you like and we're reasonably certain you'll enjoy the small variations on theme' type army.



I pretty much disagree with this sentiment. While keeping up with the Space Marine treadmill is pretty impossible, and the new Sisters units are aesthetically faithful to the original Sisters aesthetic [to be fair, so are the Space Marines], it's not like the objective is to have space marine players switch to playing Sisters or for them to take over from Space Marines.

The doubling down on the "covered with shiny tat" aesthetic and emphasised links to the ministorium over the ordo hereticus they've done with the new Sisters vehicle models is done to make them distinct from being "Female Space Marines" so that they have a unique look to appeal to people separately from the other factions.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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Jarms48 wrote:I don't think Sisters will be replacing First-Born. My personal opinion is:

By 10th edition we'll see codex Space Marines split into codex Space Marines: First-born and codex Space Marines: Primaris. Both codex options will be able to ally together in the same army without breaking any detachment abilities.

This is largely due to codex bloat and the fact that GW will keep releasing more Primaris content. This codex First-born would likely have many of its characters removed as they cross the Rubicon and be added to codex Primaris instead.

There will be a gradual loss of units to legends over 11th and 12th edition in codex First-born. Any characters not having gone over Rubicon will be killed off in combat or having died during the Rubicon process. 13th edition will then see all the remaining First-born go to legends and codex Primaris would then on be called solely codex Space Marines.

Though this would assume GW have a plan spanning about 10 years for the Space Marine model line.


This is basically what I think is going to happen as well, though instead of 10 years and 4 editions I would think it would be over maybe two editions. The idea that I am think of is that the SoB are being built up to take over the playstyle and general look of the firstborn. Were the Primaris are a group of ultra expensive specialists the firstborn are more generalist that are in between in cost and this is were the SoB will be.
   
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Well, we’re just seeing SoB developed beyond their original incarnation all those many years ago, when they received a Codex right at the tail end of 2nd, then bupkiss for around 20 years.

Are they replacing Firstborn? No, no they’re not.

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No they aren’t. Primaris will probably, eventually replace the marine model line entirely. Once the moulds wear out and break on the old models like scouts and tactical marines, you’ll see them withdrawn from sale and then eventually the codex too.


 
   
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The blurb in the IA2 manual says:
The Immolator was discovered in M35 as an incomplete STC by the Frateris Militia. It was reconstructed using the Rhino hull by the AdMech, and entered into an exclusive contract.
Yes. The additional lore is found in the 2nd edition sisters codex, page 46, where it mentions that the STC for the immolator was later developed into the hellhound.
I've always taken it to infer that the weapon itself was what they were first able to extract from the templates given to them by the ecclesiarchy.

In terms of the underlying vehicle it's a bit of a mix - razorbacks have always been rear mounted turrets, immolators always front mounts, and the predator has been both in various incarnations.
Rhino design in general was moving towards a powered front turret as the mkiii had one by default.
   
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...no.

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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:You guys know your tanks- this thread got real cool.

I never had or read any of the IA books, so thanks for the breakdown.


You're welcome!


the_scotsman wrote:in a way, sorta. Sisters are an army aimed at nostalgic collectors - marines aren't that anymore. They're a sort of FOMO limited edition splash release every couple months and just throw it on the pile to rot kind of army aimed to get new hobbyists in the door and keep whale buyers eternally buying.

If you dislike the constant churn the new marines are going to burn you out, and yeah, sisters have that classic style and they seem to be designed to be a 'everything is as you remember, everything new is within safe parameters of the stuff you like and we're reasonably certain you'll enjoy the small variations on theme' type army.



I pretty much disagree with this sentiment. While keeping up with the Space Marine treadmill is pretty impossible, and the new Sisters units are aesthetically faithful to the original Sisters aesthetic [to be fair, so are the Space Marines], it's not like the objective is to have space marine players switch to playing Sisters or for them to take over from Space Marines.

The doubling down on the "covered with shiny tat" aesthetic and emphasised links to the ministorium over the ordo hereticus they've done with the new Sisters vehicle models is done to make them distinct from being "Female Space Marines" so that they have a unique look to appeal to people separately from the other factions.


I'm not saying there's any kind of active push. Just that GW determined (probably based on declining sales of Horus Heresy, poor performance vs projections of the 3rd wave of basic marine troop units back in 7th, poor performance of Deathwatch compared to the previous marine splinter factions) that the core practice of targeting the existing collector base of marines and trying to get them to adopt new more specialised marine products like the alt marine armies and alt marine game was not yielding the same results it used to back in 5th-6th when they released all the 'same unit, but the elite version' box kits, properly relaunched DA as a subfaction, fully supported SW and BA unique units with plastic kits, and launched GK in plastic. They decided to prioritize the status of SM as the 'starter kit army' and set up a business model with primaris that favored ease of entry, ease of getting an army together, heavy release churn, and de-prioritized designing kits with existing nostalgic collectors in mind.

Meanwhile, they launched the new sisters of battle targeting that exact type of audience with extremely faithful HD re-imaginings of all the units you remember with stuff like

-kits with lots of options
-heavy weapon squad kits where you don't get everything you need to have in the box and need spare bits/kitbashing to make specialized squads
-transports being more or less required for a lot of units as opposed to optional add-ons with the army designed to work without them
-highly specialized units that are good at one thing and very bad at dealing with other things
-higher price point per kit
-lower points per kit, combining to a higher total cost to get a 2k point army

The sisters relaunch shared a lot more in common with the Genestealer Cult reboot than it did with the Primaris Space Marine launch. They're aimed at an audience of people who are already passionate about the game, already willing to drop serious cash on an army that they've wanted for ages, expect that nostalgic experience of separating out the bits from the sprue and deciding what each of their models is going to look like, are comfortable with rules that are a bit fiddly and complex compared to the standard and would rather have more options available than have every option come in the box. They know they're gonna sell less of each kit, but get higher buy-in from each customer, so they design the range to be deeper and try to build in more interesting ways to build and use each kit, as opposed to just providing maybe a barely-distinct secondary build with the kit to give someone a reason to buy the full kit instead of ebaying the unit out of the bundle box they originally appeared in, which is general practice with Primaris.

Primaris are designed as a way to get in to the hobby. That's why a lot of longstanding marine players have found them to be a little bit thin, a little bit simplistic, and GW hasn't really bothered trying to build what they've already released into a functional whole, instead preferring to just put out more new stuff to fix the problems with existing old stuff.

The repulsor is a bad tank? Release two new tanks to try and fix the problems it has, if those don't work we'll fix it with the next new tank. People are complaining about aggressors double shooting? Just take away that ability and don't replace it with anything, who cares, but make sure you slap that exact same ability on a brand new unit. Reivers have problems getting across the board? I guess when we release another unit that does reivers' same job exactly we should make sure it gets to deploy up closer instead of deep striking. We'll make a new unit out of them at some point to make it seem like we released a new unit with a book when we don't have a release to go with it. Hellblasters and Las Eliminators don't really hold up as good antitank units? Throw out a new unit, make sure it can really blast a tank to bits.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in fi
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine






How about no

In 2021, You can replicate almost every Space Marine model ever made by combining GW & FW kits. The firstborn are not going anywhere, although I doubt GW will be making new kits for them. Frankly there is no need for new firstborn kits.

I call this sensationalist BS

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/30 11:52:37


 
   
Made in pl
Imperial Agent Provocateur




Poland

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I have some issues with the new Sisters tanks in general though, lore wise. They should not be on the MkIC Deimos-Pattern hull.
The Ministorium coordinated with the Adeptus Mechanicus to create the Immolator tank in M35, by integrating a partial schematic for a IFV with the Rhino hull. This would also almost certainly play a role in the later development of the Razorback as well, given the vehicles themselves are essentially identical [especially the MkIb and MkIIc variants of each] with the Razorback basically being an improved version introduced 1 millennia later which does away with the gunner and moves the turret to the rear.
Anyway, at the point the Immolator would be developed, the MkIC pattern hull had been replaced in production with the improved MkIIC since soon after the Horus Heresy.

To quickly cover Immolator, Razorback, and Rhino hulls there are the:
Rhino:
MkIB: Had 4 large road wheels in 2 bogies on 2, no raised idlers, and a lower ground clearance overall. Used before the Horus Heresy, replaced by the MkIC by the time of the Heresy.
MkIC: The "Deimos" pattern, used through the Horus Heresy. Five smaller road wheels, and also had raised idlers at the front and back for improved ground clearance.
MkIIC: The current rhino, introduced after the Horus Heresy. Multiple improvements over the Deimos, including square drop-ramp doors, a single piece glacis instead of the two separate panels, an improved cupola, and RUWS for the storm bolter.
MkIIIA: The "Sisters of Battle Rhino" from before the most recent update. A MkIIC with an enlarged upperworks featuring a prominent central cupola and a split-door round firing hatch on the top. This type was produced concurrently in limited numbers with the MkIIC [and now must be discontinued].

*track tensioning intensifies*

   
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On the Internet

 KingGarland wrote:
I was watching a video talking about the similarities between the new models being released for the sisters of battle and units available for the space marines and a comment I saw posed the theory that the sisters are being turned into the firstborn marines as they are being replaced with the Primaris in the main SM Codex. This isn't a perfect one to one thing but I can't help but see a lot in this, especially with the new stuff and I am wondering people's opinions on this.

The video:


I'm going to say "no". Sisters have a long history of being accused of being "diet Marines" among other things, but at the end of the day the focus of their themeing and how that extends into their army mechanics mean any shared wargear is not enough to claim overlap. Sisters are very much an order of holy paladins protecting and serving the Catholic Church IN SPAAAAAAAAAAACE. I say paladins because they don't really live a cloistered life, we know canonically that chastity isn't a thing for them and while they practice obedience to their superiors it's more in a militaristic role, not a spiritual one. Plus with the heavy armour and praying for miracles it just feels more "paladin" to me.

Honestly it's the strong theming of Sisters that makes me feel that they're a poor substitution when people claim that anyone who wants female space marines already has them in the Sisters (even when the statlines were closer). Marines tend to ape various warrior cultures through a lens of focusing on only the cool bits of say culture. Sisters get to have one theme: Space Church. And it's well executed, but you can't really slap fur and some braids on a Sister of Battle minature and call her a Valkyrie because the rules don't fit that sort of warrior culture.

Plus even with the addition of the Castigator, Sisters still have a focus on Flame, Bolt, and Melta as their holy trinity (plasma pistols seem to get a pass since everyone seems to get those for some reason, though I wish it was Volkite instead since those light people on fire which would be more fitting than a weapon that melts people in to superheated goo, plus Sisters are known to care for relics).

So no, Sisters aren't going to replace Firstborn. If anything I feel Firstborn are going to be phased out over a couple editions (likely mainly based on sales data) and moved to Legends and Horus Heresy exclusively. Now they might come back if we ever get a Horus Heresy/Scouring/Great Crusade ruleset that is compatible with 40k again, but I think they'll live more in that setting than 40k in the future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
I mean if they ever squat the minimarines, and refuse to to give the Primaris access to the old marine vehicles, then Sisters should definitely inherit those vehicles. SoB already use Rhinos, they were just given 'Predator' so they might as well get the rest of them too. Hell, in some of the past editions you could have Sisters in Land Raiders and I'd like to see that brought back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
However, there's no good explanation for why the new Exorcist and Immolator kits are on the MkIC hull.

Because its more ornate and archaic look fits the SoB aesthetics better than the sleeker and more scify mark II hull. I was a bit disappointed that they only used the Deimos hull for the SoB battle tanks and not for their Rhinos too.

Not going to lie, I've actually considered spending twice as much just to make Sisters Demios Rhinos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

It's not like the "normal" heresy-era production MkIC hull looks particularly baroque or ornamented. All the baroque ornamentation is added on after words, and adds on just fine to the MkIIC hull.

The round exhausts definitely go better with the baroque style.


And if its not baroque, don't fix it.

My only regret is that I can only exalt this once.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 05:30:06


 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






I think it is a partial integration of the first born line into the sisters, not full blown (yet, which I'll come to shortly).

There's many iconic space marine designs that really do deserve to be in the game still, but they don't fit the primaris aesthetic (because they're decided to make primaris vehicles mainly grav).

So yes, lazy design choices or not, they're sort of carrying on the legacy of those vehicles by passing them onto sisters in some capacity.

The war suits are very similar to centurions in terms of ethos (just a hell of a lot more elegant and well executed than centurions, which isn't hard to do tbh), and sisters have always classically being fairly similar to first born in terms of their troops, especially in regards to the original units.

Seraphim evidently have ties to assault marines, but obviously different as they're mainly shooting, and sisters squads and retributers have always been similar to tac and dev squads.

And some newer units are more similar, whilst others are not ensuring sisters still have their own flavour, like repentia etc.

What will be interesting, and I don't see this NOT happening personally at some point is if they get their own version of a land raider, at which point I think it will be fairly conclusive that they're trying to at least keep some legacy designs around from classic first born marines without having to ham fist them into primaris in some kind. I still expect primaris to get a proper land raider assault vehicle type replacement though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 05:39:52


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Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I think it is a partial integration of the first born line into the sisters, not full blown (yet, which I'll come to shortly).

There's many iconic space marine designs that really do deserve to be in the game still, but they don't fit the primaris aesthetic (because they're decided to make primaris vehicles mainly grav).

So yes, lazy design choices or not, they're sort of carrying on the legacy of those vehicles by passing them onto sisters in some capacity.

The war suits are very similar to centurions in terms of ethos (just a hell of a lot more elegant and well executed than centurions, which isn't hard to do tbh), and sisters have always classically being fairly similar to first born in terms of their troops, especially in regards to the original units.

Seraphim evidently have ties to assault marines, but obviously different as they're mainly shooting, and sisters squads and retributers have always been similar to tac and dev squads.

And some newer units are more similar, whilst others are not ensuring sisters still have their own flavour, like repentia etc.

What will be interesting, and I don't see this NOT happening personally at some point is if they get their own version of a land raider, at which point I think it will be fairly conclusive that they're trying to at least keep some legacy designs around from classic first born marines without having to ham fist them into primaris in some kind. I still expect primaris to get a proper land raider assault vehicle type replacement though.

Land Raiders have a home with Custodes, Grey Knights (for now at least) and the Inquisition on the loyalist side so it may not go to the Sisters.

That said, I would like a Sisters Super Heavy if the Marines aren't using their old ones....
   
Made in ca
Enginseer with a Wrench






endlesswaltz123 wrote:I think it is a partial integration of the first born line into the sisters, not full blown (yet, which I'll come to shortly).

There's many iconic space marine designs that really do deserve to be in the game still, but they don't fit the primaris aesthetic (because they're decided to make primaris vehicles mainly grav).

So yes, lazy design choices or not, they're sort of carrying on the legacy of those vehicles by passing them onto sisters in some capacity.

The war suits are very similar to centurions in terms of ethos (just a hell of a lot more elegant and well executed than centurions, which isn't hard to do tbh), and sisters have always classically being fairly similar to first born in terms of their troops, especially in regards to the original units.

Seraphim evidently have ties to assault marines, but obviously different as they're mainly shooting, and sisters squads and retributers have always been similar to tac and dev squads.

And some newer units are more similar, whilst others are not ensuring sisters still have their own flavour, like repentia etc.

What will be interesting, and I don't see this NOT happening personally at some point is if they get their own version of a land raider, at which point I think it will be fairly conclusive that they're trying to at least keep some legacy designs around from classic first born marines without having to ham fist them into primaris in some kind. I still expect primaris to get a proper land raider assault vehicle type replacement though.


This is exactly what I was thinking may happen.
   
 
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