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Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






As posted about here in another thread, I've been eying 6th edition. I have played 8th edition, and I know at anything less than 1500 the game isn't super good, and even then doesn't really approach "nice" until 2000 in a lot of cases, with optimal experience being 2400-2500.

What's the case with 6th edition? What's the minimum game size I should look at for a nice experience testing the rules? And what point level would people consider "optimal" to truly experience the game?

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
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And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
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Made in de
Charging Orc Boar Boy





Germany

To test the rules as a whole, you will need a balanced force which can act in all of the game's phases, movement, magic, shooting and close Combat..l

You could start with as little as 500 points as a beginner, but as you know the game from ich her editions, that would feel very underwhelming.

I would take 1200 points as an absolute Minimum.

A serious game experience requires almost always a Lord Choice, which is available 2000 pts +
I found 2500 to 3000 points to be the best for a nice game session, 4000+points drag on forever.
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker




Charlotte, NC

I tend to agree with Moscha's assessment in that your goal should be around 2K for regular gaming at a minimum, with 3K being optimum depending on the army. The more that the army has available to it, the more likely that you will want to expand beyond 2K. However, I believe that 1K games are great for entry games for most armies. There are a few armies that suffer from not having a Lord level character at that level quite a bit, but I contend that those are far and few between.(VC and TK being two) Some armies require two characters as the minimum to field the army which may limit your options. Unless you really want to play those armies with those limitations, I would suggest starting with an army that has more flexibility.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The following thread listed below had more than a few good choices for introductory armies in my opinion.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788910.page

That is of course if you are still looking for a good intro army to the 6th.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/29 23:06:44


My Hobby Blog: https://tinylegions.blogspot.com/

http://www.classichammer.com- New Games with old Rules 
   
Made in es
Courageous Silver Helm





For me, the sweet spot is 2k. Large enough to have a bit of everything including a Lord.
1500-1000 works too.

Bigger becomes a bit too long imo, WHFB was never a particularly fluid system (anything GW really...). Unless it's a scenario or something that aims for that.

For very small games (around 500), the Warhammer Patrols are a fantastic way to play. Super fun for fast games.
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Entry level games or a short term goal for starting a second/third/fourteenth army would be 1,000 points in my opinion. It gives you a decent mix of units and you're usually able to get enough love in to interact with every phase. From there? 500 point increases. My end goal is a solid 3,000 so I have a very versatile 2,000 with tons of options to swap out as flavor dictates.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
TinyLegions wrote:
I tend to agree with Moscha's assessment in that your goal should be around 2K for regular gaming at a minimum, with 3K being optimum depending on the army. The more that the army has available to it, the more likely that you will want to expand beyond 2K. However, I believe that 1K games are great for entry games for most armies. There are a few armies that suffer from not having a Lord level character at that level quite a bit, but I contend that those are far and few between.(VC and TK being two) Some armies require two characters as the minimum to field the army which may limit your options. Unless you really want to play those armies with those limitations, I would suggest starting with an army that has more flexibility.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The following thread listed below had more than a few good choices for introductory armies in my opinion.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788910.page

That is of course if you are still looking for a good intro army to the 6th.


Wasn't there also a poster who was getting almost every army at 1,000 points? Like he started with starter sets and we convinced him to bump up to 1,000?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766323.page

Pretty impressive, if you ask me...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/30 01:16:31


www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






TinyLegions wrote:

The following thread listed below had more than a few good choices for introductory armies in my opinion.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788910.page

That is of course if you are still looking for a good intro army to the 6th.


Interesting thread. So I had planned on one of the armies I tried this with being Lizardmen, and that looks like a decent army. Not sure how it all fits together...
I have Kroq'gar, a slann, Scar-veteran on cold one, 20 spear warriors, 30ish skinks, a bastiladon , stegadon, and 3 kroxigor. And a dread saurian Kroq'gar and a slann together look like that would be a 3000 point game so it'll be 1 or the other at 2000, but the rest of it probably doesn't quite fill that out.

The opposing army is... less known. I have a large dwarf collection, for the most part, but what would be the core are on 24mm square integral bases Also, I have played dwarfs most of my wargaming life and am starting to get bored of their lack of anything fantastic! But then again, I started back when the 6th edition book was most recent so am already fairly familiar with their contemporary list!
The other choice is a bunch of chaos daemons on huge bases that don't rank up or fit footprints well, because, well AoS. But that army would definitely work in all phases (units from each god, lead by Be'lakor). That one seems fairly complicated to play for a beginner though.

Tomb Kings were my brother's army of choice before I moved away from home so collecting a bit of those would be nostalgic. I recently discovered, from another thread, a variant army list with a Bone Giant Liche Priest and Ushabti as core and... while not the best for beginners... is very tempting.

So general consensus from this thread seems to be to plan for 2000, but I wouldn't have a *bad* time playing 1500? Going to have to track down a Lizardmen book to figure out the fit here. Also, once vaccinated I know that there's a group that meets up for 6th edition WHFB every few months (my friend plays Nurgle Warriors)

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Rihgu wrote:
TinyLegions wrote:

The following thread listed below had more than a few good choices for introductory armies in my opinion.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788910.page

That is of course if you are still looking for a good intro army to the 6th.


Interesting thread. So I had planned on one of the armies I tried this with being Lizardmen, and that looks like a decent army. Not sure how it all fits together...
I have Kroq'gar, a slann, Scar-veteran on cold one, 20 spear warriors, 30ish skinks, a bastiladon , stegadon, and 3 kroxigor. And a dread saurian Kroq'gar and a slann together look like that would be a 3000 point game so it'll be 1 or the other at 2000, but the rest of it probably doesn't quite fill that out.

The opposing army is... less known. I have a large dwarf collection, for the most part, but what would be the core are on 24mm square integral bases Also, I have played dwarfs most of my wargaming life and am starting to get bored of their lack of anything fantastic! But then again, I started back when the 6th edition book was most recent so am already fairly familiar with their contemporary list!
The other choice is a bunch of chaos daemons on huge bases that don't rank up or fit footprints well, because, well AoS. But that army would definitely work in all phases (units from each god, lead by Be'lakor). That one seems fairly complicated to play for a beginner though.

Tomb Kings were my brother's army of choice before I moved away from home so collecting a bit of those would be nostalgic. I recently discovered, from another thread, a variant army list with a Bone Giant Liche Priest and Ushabti as core and... while not the best for beginners... is very tempting.

So general consensus from this thread seems to be to plan for 2000, but I wouldn't have a *bad* time playing 1500? Going to have to track down a Lizardmen book to figure out the fit here. Also, once vaccinated I know that there's a group that meets up for 6th edition WHFB every few months (my friend plays Nurgle Warriors)


...

Why couldn't that group be in Indiana?

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker




Charlotte, NC

Rihgu wrote:
TinyLegions wrote:

The following thread listed below had more than a few good choices for introductory armies in my opinion.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788910.page

That is of course if you are still looking for a good intro army to the 6th.


Interesting thread. So I had planned on one of the armies I tried this with being Lizardmen, and that looks like a decent army. Not sure how it all fits together...
I have Kroq'gar, a slann, Scar-veteran on cold one, 20 spear warriors, 30ish skinks, a bastiladon , stegadon, and 3 kroxigor. And a dread saurian Kroq'gar and a slann together look like that would be a 3000 point game so it'll be 1 or the other at 2000, but the rest of it probably doesn't quite fill that out.

The opposing army is... less known. I have a large dwarf collection, for the most part, but what would be the core are on 24mm square integral bases Also, I have played dwarfs most of my wargaming life and am starting to get bored of their lack of anything fantastic! But then again, I started back when the 6th edition book was most recent so am already fairly familiar with their contemporary list!
The other choice is a bunch of chaos daemons on huge bases that don't rank up or fit footprints well, because, well AoS. But that army would definitely work in all phases (units from each god, lead by Be'lakor). That one seems fairly complicated to play for a beginner though.

Tomb Kings were my brother's army of choice before I moved away from home so collecting a bit of those would be nostalgic. I recently discovered, from another thread, a variant army list with a Bone Giant Liche Priest and Ushabti as core and... while not the best for beginners... is very tempting.

So general consensus from this thread seems to be to plan for 2000, but I wouldn't have a *bad* time playing 1500? Going to have to track down a Lizardmen book to figure out the fit here. Also, once vaccinated I know that there's a group that meets up for 6th edition WHFB every few months (my friend plays Nurgle Warriors)


I don't see why not, even armies with the above character issues will have less of a handicap at that level.

My Hobby Blog: https://tinylegions.blogspot.com/

http://www.classichammer.com- New Games with old Rules 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Here's a question that's not directly related to the topic but is related to me investigating 6th edition.

Some units have flavorful names for weapons (Ushabti's Huge Ritual Blades, Carrion's wicked beaks)
Are these always hand weapons? Or how does one determine? The Huge Ritual Blade seems like it should be a Great Weapon, to me!

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Typically it'll say "counts as x" in those cases. In the case of the Ushabti their root strength is great weapon level without striking last

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Right, that's what I had figured. Just wasn't sure if there was some intrinsic rule I had missed where all weapons described as "huge" were great by default or something.
Shame about no S8 Ushabti, though. (kidding, of course! Although I think they could hit that in 8th!)

edit: Also of note, I've almost got my gaming table cleaned off enough to game on, and am considering a solo game with the following armies to test WHFB at 2000pts

DWARFS
Runelord with shield, master rune of flight, rune of cleaving, and rune of spellbreaking (you bet he's going to be throwing that staff of his at you!)
Dragon Slayer with master rune of Alaric the mad and rune of fury
20 warriors with great weapons and the command
2 units of 16 quarrelers
20 miners with the command, drill, and blasting charges
28 troll slayers with the banner, musician, and 5 giant slayers because these are my favorite unit and I have the models so try and stop me
2 cannons with engineers
an organ gun

LIZARDS
Third generation Slann Battle Standard with Plaque of Dominion, Sun Standard of Chotec, and Cube of Darkness
Scar Veteran on Cold One with Scimitar of the Sun resplendent and Sacred Spawnings of Itzl and Queztl
20 Temple Guard with shields and command, and Totem of Prophecy (these, as Core?
2 units of 10 skinks
3 kroxigors with ancient
2 stegadons

Limited mostly by models I have. I feel a bit bad for the lizards, but hey, magic?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/02 02:53:35


I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Honestly the Lizzies might do better than you expect. It's not necessarily a bad list, just not a typical one.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker




Charlotte, NC

Rihgu wrote:
Right, that's what I had figured. Just wasn't sure if there was some intrinsic rule I had missed where all weapons described as "huge" were great by default or something.
Shame about no S8 Ushabti, though. (kidding, of course! Although I think they could hit that in 8th!)

edit: Also of note, I've almost got my gaming table cleaned off enough to game on, and am considering a solo game with the following armies to test WHFB at 2000pts

DWARFS
Runelord with shield, master rune of flight, rune of cleaving, and rune of spellbreaking (you bet he's going to be throwing that staff of his at you!)
Dragon Slayer with master rune of Alaric the mad and rune of fury
20 warriors with great weapons and the command
2 units of 16 quarrelers
20 miners with the command, drill, and blasting charges
28 troll slayers with the banner, musician, and 5 giant slayers because these are my favorite unit and I have the models so try and stop me
2 cannons with engineers
an organ gun

LIZARDS
Third generation Slann Battle Standard with Plaque of Dominion, Sun Standard of Chotec, and Cube of Darkness
Scar Veteran on Cold One with Scimitar of the Sun resplendent and Sacred Spawnings of Itzl and Queztl
20 Temple Guard with shields and command, and Totem of Prophecy (these, as Core?
2 units of 10 skinks
3 kroxigors with ancient
2 stegadons

Limited mostly by models I have. I feel a bit bad for the lizards, but hey, magic?


My thoughts on the Dwarf List. I see that you are using the 6.5 army book, so I keep that in mind.


Runelord with shield, master rune of flight, rune of cleaving, and rune of spellbreaking (you bet he's going to be throwing that staff of his at you!)

- I would avoid using Runelord's at this level. For the 6th edition, you are better of spending your points on two runesmith's

Dragon Slayer with master rune of Alaric the mad and rune of fury

- Since you are a fan of Slayers, then this is an ok choice, but I would pick a thane personally to go in with the warriors.

20 warriors with great weapons and the command

- ok, but if you need the points, go with HW and shield.

2 units of 16 quarrelers

- That is a little high for missile troops, I would slim that down to 10 or 12.

20 miners with the command, drill, and blasting charges

- Again, I think that is on the high side. These guys are supposed to come in on a flank side of the board generally and do either a counter attack, occupy a quarter, or kill war machines. If you need any more than 10 or 12 Miners to do that job, then you are likely doing it wrong.

28 troll slayers with the banner, musician, and 5 giant slayers because these are my favorite unit and I have the models so try and stop me

- That is a little high in my estimation but not as much as the others. You need to review the rules to verify this, but I believe that only slayer characters go into slayer units, so that Runelord is going to be hanging out in another unit to make this army legal.

2 cannons with engineers

- Ok. I always take one cannon but generally take two bolt throwers or Stone Thrower depending on my opponent. Personal preference on this one.

an organ gun

- Something I don't leave home without.

I would advise getting the following somehow:

- One thane , preferably a BSB
- One more unit of combat warriors, preference is on HW and shields. At least 20+ in numbers

My Hobby Blog: https://tinylegions.blogspot.com/

http://www.classichammer.com- New Games with old Rules 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maryland

Wasn't another popular points level 1999+1? I swear I used to hear that used so that you'd have plenty of points to spend on troops but just couldn't take a points sink Lord.

   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 infinite_array wrote:
Wasn't another popular points level 1999+1? I swear I used to hear that used so that you'd have plenty of points to spend on troops but just couldn't take a points sink Lord.


That was for 8th edition, when they had % caps on unit types. So when Steam Tanks were 250 points, and you could spend 25% on rares, tournaments did 1999+1 to stop players from taking 2 Steam Tanks, etc.

I took TinyLegions' advice into account and changed up the Dwarf list. I've hit a snag in clearing off my table (ran out of storage space and haven't been able to acquire more, so stuff on the table stays on the table... and in fact I've only added more! ) so my demo game is still a while off... but that's just more time to study the rules.

New Dwarf list looks like:

Runesmith (Master Rune of Flight, rune of cleaving)
Runesmith (2x Rune of Spellbreaking)
Dragon Slayer (Master Rune of Alaric the Mad, Rune of Fury)

20 Great Weapon Warriors with Command
20 Hand Weapon (although my models have spears...) with Shield Warriors with Command
2x 12 Quarrelers

10 miners with command, blasting charges, and drill
28 slayers with 5 giant slayers, banner and musician
2 cannons with engineers

1 organ gun

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

Rihgu wrote:
 infinite_array wrote:
Wasn't another popular points level 1999+1? I swear I used to hear that used so that you'd have plenty of points to spend on troops but just couldn't take a points sink Lord.


That was for 8th edition, when they had % caps on unit types. So when Steam Tanks were 250 points, and you could spend 25% on rares, tournaments did 1999+1 to stop players from taking 2 Steam Tanks, etc.



No, infinite_array is correct. It was originally a 6th ed tournament thing to prevent overtooled Lord level characters. 8th ed events tended to be played at 2400 and 2500 anyway.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker




Charlotte, NC

 Platuan4th wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
 infinite_array wrote:
Wasn't another popular points level 1999+1? I swear I used to hear that used so that you'd have plenty of points to spend on troops but just couldn't take a points sink Lord.


That was for 8th edition, when they had % caps on unit types. So when Steam Tanks were 250 points, and you could spend 25% on rares, tournaments did 1999+1 to stop players from taking 2 Steam Tanks, etc.



No, infinite_array is correct. It was originally a 6th ed tournament thing to prevent overtooled Lord level characters. 8th ed events tended to be played at 2400 and 2500 anyway.


Back in the 6th I remember tournament point limits to be 2250.

My Hobby Blog: https://tinylegions.blogspot.com/

http://www.classichammer.com- New Games with old Rules 
   
Made in us
Knight of the Inner Circle




Montreal, QC Canada

I mean, the game is balanced based on 2000pts as that's the standard game size. I know tournaments like to up it to 2250 or 2500 but I've found that can throw the game balance off somewhat. I mean the only reason that is done is because people want to be able to take more toys they wouldn't be able to otherwise.

Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!!
The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

I didn't see the 2250 thing hit until 7th

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Just Tony wrote:
I didn't see the 2250 thing hit until 7th
Same.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Knight of the Inner Circle




Montreal, QC Canada

I played in a few 6th edition tournaments up here where it was 2250. But that may be a local thing. The Montreal WHFB community here was very much its own little niche.

Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!!
The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker




Charlotte, NC

I remember both seeing it in person and I believe that it was pretty prevalent in the forums on the GW website. I could be wrong, however, it was 15 years ago since the last time that I played the 6th edition.

My Hobby Blog: https://tinylegions.blogspot.com/

http://www.classichammer.com- New Games with old Rules 
   
 
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