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Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Played first round of escalation league. 500 pts, patrol, max 1 vehicle, city of death rules. I had overlord, 10 tesla immortal, 3 tesla tomb blade, dda. Was up against krieg with 2 officers, 2 basic squads, 1 grenadier squad with 2 melta, 10 guys with d2 shotguns that wound inf on 2+ but die on 1 and basilisk.

Against basilisk lord had veil and reroll charge trait. He ran forward and killed 1 immortal. Quantum shield, boosted by stratagem, kept dda safe. -1 to hit for basilisk also helped. My turn lord and immortal, both my will be doned ds:ed behind him. Solar pulse to negate cover and despite -1 to hit 9 died from inf squad. Immune to morale from shooting bc krieg. Lord charged basilisk taking 3 wounds. Stupidly charged officer with immortals and got stuck there. And overlord was in open.

T2 those weird shotguns killed warlord and half squad died to own guns. Dda took 7 wounds so living metal helped. I killed lotsa infantry again and caused 4 wounds vs basilisk with weak shot degrading with 2 from overlord. immortal finally killed officer and i stupidly consolidiated into lone trooper.

T3 he shot all at dda and didn't do anything. My turn tomb blades finished mortars and dda killed more infantry. Boom.

T4 dda still safe, 2 troopers charge immortals on principle that safer to charge than face shooting. My turn kill bit more infantry around. My immortals finally start to repair after getting whittled to 3 guys with no rp pass.

T5 and he killed like 1 immortal. Quantum kept melta from doing harm as he kept rolling 5+ for damage despite staying far. My turn finished basilisk with low power(moved to objective) and vaporised warlord with immortals. Tomb blades took 3rd objective and killed more infantry from last squad leaving 4 and we called it here.

My casualties: overlord, 3 immortals. His casualties 7 units and 6/10 from last squad and really short of game ending on dice roll they were dead anyway.

Win for team xenos. Orks also won, eldar lost. 4th guy didn't play this round(so many players we spread games through month)

Dda and it's gaus flayers was star. Albeit helped with dice roll. But keeping aggressive with it with 20 s5 -1 shots paid off

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/07 16:47:32


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





tneva82 wrote:
Played first round of escalation league. 500 pts, patrol, max 1 vehicle, city of death rules. I had overlord, 10 tesla immortal, 3 tesla tomb blade, dda. Was up against krieg with 2 officers, 2 basic squads, 1 grenadier squad with 2 melta, 10 guys with d2 shotguns that wound inf on 2+ but die on 1 and basilisk.

Against basilisk lord had veil and reroll charge trait. He ran forward and killed 1 immortal. Quantum shield, boosted by stratagem, kept dda safe. -1 to hit for basilisk also helped. My turn lord and immortal, both my will be doned ds:ed behind him. Solar pulse to negate cover and despite -1 to hit 9 died from inf squad. Immune to morale from shooting bc krieg. Lord charged basilisk taking 3 wounds. Stupidly charged officer with immortals and got stuck there. And overlord was in open.

T2 those weird shotguns killed warlord and half squad died to own guns. Dda took 7 wounds so living metal helped. I killed lotsa infantry again and caused 4 wounds vs basilisk with weak shot degrading with 2 from overlord. immortal finally killed officer and i stupidly consolidiated into lone trooper.

T3 he shot all at dda and didn't do anything. My turn tomb blades finished mortars and dda killed more infantry. Boom.

T4 dda still safe, 2 troopers charge immortals on principle that safer to charge than face shooting. My turn kill bit more infantry around. My immortals finally start to repair after getting whittled to 3 guys with no rp pass.

T5 and he killed like 1 immortal. Quantum kept melta from doing harm as he kept rolling 5+ for damage despite staying far. My turn finished basilisk with low power(moved to objective) and vaporised warlord with immortals. Tomb blades took 3rd objective and killed more infantry from last squad leaving 4 and we called it here.

My casualties: overlord, 3 immortals. His casualties 7 units and 6/10 from last squad and really short of game ending on dice roll they were dead anyway.

Win for team xenos. Orks also won, eldar lost. 4th guy didn't play this round(so many players we spread games through month)

Dda and it's gaus flayers was star. Albeit helped with dice roll. But keeping aggressive with it with 20 s5 -1 shots paid off


It's S4 but all the same against T3.

It's easier to shine in low point games.

Shiny 40k 8th tool with colors: dice-hammer.com 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Oh right. Anyway vs IG no big deal with T3 and T7.

And yes low points def help so good that at least I scored win here when odds were biggest! Would be bad start to lose when odds are mostly in my favour. Though 40 infantry, basilisk and 3 mortars were scary and had he had bit more luck vs dda on T2 things could have been different. Then again had I not failed to kill the 1 trooper or not consolidiated there in the first place again would have been better for me and tomb blades were rolling badly.

Next round is 800 and can be battallion and no extra restrictions. Wonder what to field then.

3 potential lists:

Spoiler:


overlord w/warscythe
cryptek with 5++ thing
10xtesla immortal
2x5 tesla immortal
dda
doom scythe



Scythe is bit of meh yes and no fast units this time in form of tomb blades :( Expecting potentially more vehicles though...And nephrek helps with speed if need be.

Spoiler:


overlord w/warscythe
cryptek with 5++ thing
10xtesla immortal
5 tesla immortal
20xwarrior
dda



No flyer with it's -1 to hit, less immortals but whopping big block of warriors. At 800 pts could be reasonably tough nutter. Obviously overlord would have immune to morale warlord trait.

Spoiler:

overlord
cryptek
3x5 tesla immortal
dda
4xscarab
nightbringer



This plays on the wish to use nightbringer IF I can get it painted as well as I want. Not sure is it really good option this small game but it's there if I like my paintjob. Rather small in terms of troops though...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/07 19:24:06


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in us
Utilizing Careful Highlighting





Augusta GA

Sentry Pylons; any good at all? I picked one up to use as scenery, but the heat gun option looks useable for some deepstriking melta. Potentially stronger damage than a DDA and doesn’t need to start on the board. But it’s kind of expensive and super fragile.
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

Sentry pylons suck. One with heat cannon is 145, with teleportation matrix 155 pts. A DDA is 160 pts. Compare the guns. 36" vs 72". S8 vs. S10, DD6 vs. DD6. You would need to deepstrike the pylon within 18" to get the 2D6 damage roll. Then you roll a 1 for the number of shots. Then it needs to be sautekh, or you get -1 to hit. On your opponents turn he will charge it with some cheap chaff unit, tie it up in melee, and your pylon is useless.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Well at least the range wouldn't be issue here. After 36" LOS becomes bigger issue than range. But rest are valid. Myself wouldn't take heat ray though but the gaus thing. Cheaper and does something better than dda's. Specifically fliers. Maybe not best options there but not everything has to be optimized to death and the eldar flying circuis is and will be very popular. Likely even more popular than before.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

Gauss exterminator would be ok, 48" range is good, lots of units have FLY. Still, i think pylons need to drop 20-30 pts to be viable.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Oh yeah point drop would be nice. But at least gaus version has some role. The heat one indeed is rather meh. Especially now that deep strike is T2 earliest so you are at serious point disadvantage at turn 1. Half the time opponent has shot twice before that pylon gets to fire at all.

Necrons could do with lots of point drops(28 pts for lychguard? Holy smoke)

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal




I think there's been a bit of chatter on this recently, but how are people feeling about the Big Pylon post FAQ?

Now that knights are limited to a 4++ I think it has to be back in contention. It's also great anti-flyer support, something else we struggle with and it throws out a decent 5++ bubble to hide our DDAs in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 21:44:41


 
   
Made in gb
Freaky Flayed One



United Kingdom

Aren't Scytheguard on paper still our best knight killers?
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I wouldn't call expensive unit that relies getting into combat with knight as particularly good unit...Knights tend to run around with 50-60 infantry troopers to be used as screens so getting there requires "bit" luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way how tall the model is? I'm bit worried about the immobile part. There's quite a lot of terrain with even castellan hiding terrain available so I'm bit worried it might struggle to draw LOS much to anything...Albeit there's shorter terrain as well.

Next time I go there(june) I'll measure up terrain pieces to see how much of issue LOS is going to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 18:31:24


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One




dapperbandit wrote:
Aren't Scytheguard on paper still our best knight killers?


Nope you might as well be taking warriors to kill a knight. Wraiths are our best on paper, then scarabs, then DDA.

Edited to show points per wound taking into account amount of multiple damage and no 5++ in HtH

Assuming
Toughness 8
3+ 4++ vs shooting (new Rotate Ion Shield limit)
3+ vs Hand to Hand

Wounds per point (higher is better)
0.01587301587 Scytheguard
0.01709401709 Scarabs
0.01851851852 Wraiths
0.01234567901 Tesla
0.01701388889 Doomsday Cannon
0.0101010101 Warrior (rapid fire)

Interestingly, using this math to do 25 wounds to a knight in one shot, it would take the following point values of models
1575 Scytheguard
1462.5 Scarabs
1350 Wraiths
2025 Tesla
1469.387755 Doomsday Cannon
2475 Warrior (rapid fire)

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 00:51:05


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

Why a 5++ in melee? That’s an uncommonly picked relic.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One




 JNAProductions wrote:
Why a 5++ in melee? That’s an uncommonly picked relic.


Interesting!

Edited to reflect no invul in HtH. Which puts them better than troops, but worse than wraiths, scarabs, and DDA.

Still, every other option has better delivery systems (shooting 1st turn, or a 10"-12" move), which to my mind makes them the worst of all choices.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 00:54:59


 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





barontuman wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Why a 5++ in melee? That’s an uncommonly picked relic.


Interesting!

Edited to reflect no invul in HtH. Which puts them better than troops, but worse than wraiths, scarabs, and DDA.

Still, every other option has better delivery systems (shooting 1st turn, or a 10"-12" move), which to my mind makes them the worst of all choices.


How about a damage per modell or Max slzed unit? There's a tactical constraint as well, you can't always poor points at a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the Pylon? Seems to do near 16 dmg per volley

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 01:10:04


Shiny 40k 8th tool with colors: dice-hammer.com 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal





Jackson, TN

Plugging in the stats into http://www.dice-hammer.com/#!/damage

And did a little math using just Lychguard with warscythes Vs a basic Knight in Melee, no rerolls or other trickery in play:
So, on average, after saves:

ScytheGuard: 0.89 unsaved wounds per Lychguard, 27 Lychguard to do 24 wounds, 756 points worth of Lychguard to kill a knight.
Scarabs: 0.22 unsaved wounds per Scarab 110 Scarabs to do 24 wounds. 1430 points worth of Scarabs to kill a knight.
Wraiths: 0.89 unsaved wounds per Wraith 27 Wraiths to do 24 wounds. 1296 points worth of Wraiths to kill a knight

Pylon at range vs Knight, they will use Stratagem so T8 4++ save: 15.56 unsaved wounds per Pylon, 2 pylon to kill a Knight, 950 points worth of Pylon to kill a knight

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 02:44:38


 
   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One




torblind wrote:
barontuman wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Why a 5++ in melee? That’s an uncommonly picked relic.


Interesting!

Edited to reflect no invul in HtH. Which puts them better than troops, but worse than wraiths, scarabs, and DDA.

Still, every other option has better delivery systems (shooting 1st turn, or a 10"-12" move), which to my mind makes them the worst of all choices.


How about a damage per modell or Max slzed unit? There's a tactical constraint as well, you can't always poor points at a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the Pylon? Seems to do near 16 dmg per volley


Gauss Pylon is 0.02046783626 damage per point, if on its undamaged bracket. That puts it about 10% better than wraiths, but with first turn shooting capability

It'll do on average 9.72222 damage per volley. But as with any D6 shot weapon, you could roll 1 shot, and they could roll a 4+ to save doing none, or you could roll 6 shots doing a maximum of 54 damage if they make none of their saves.

Damage per model, those are easy to calculate either by hand or online sites (mathhammer), or simply multiple the damage per point by the cost of the model.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Well pylon benefits a lot from cp reroll making odds of 1 shot 1/36. There's not going to be better use for it than that for sure.

Vs multiple knights if you have pylon and dda start with dda and if rotate comes depending on result shoot elsewhere. He has to decide either letting dda shoot unopposed or pylon getting shot vs 5++ knight with ris possibly not doing anything.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





barontuman wrote:
torblind wrote:
barontuman wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Why a 5++ in melee? That’s an uncommonly picked relic.


Interesting!

Edited to reflect no invul in HtH. Which puts them better than troops, but worse than wraiths, scarabs, and DDA.

Still, every other option has better delivery systems (shooting 1st turn, or a 10"-12" move), which to my mind makes them the worst of all choices.


How about a damage per modell or Max slzed unit? There's a tactical constraint as well, you can't always poor points at a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the Pylon? Seems to do near 16 dmg per volley


Gauss Pylon is 0.02046783626 damage per point, if on its undamaged bracket. That puts it about 10% better than wraiths, but with first turn shooting capability

It'll do on average 9.72222 damage per volley. But as with any D6 shot weapon, you could roll 1 shot, and they could roll a 4+ to save doing none, or you could roll 6 shots doing a maximum of 54 damage if they make none of their saves.

Damage per model, those are easy to calculate either by hand or online sites (mathhammer), or simply multiple the damage per point by the cost of the model.


Did you take into account Macro vs Titanic?

Also don't forget it's effectively BS3+ vs a knight due to the non-Fly limitation

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 05:27:42


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Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Yeah seems low. I get 15.55 wounds vs 4++ with 3.5 shots. HOWEVER if we always reroll 1 and 2 we get actually average shot amount of 4.16 which adds up to 18.48 wounds per average.

(rerolling 3 increases average damage slightly but adds swings too much for my taste. Average shot count rises to 4.25 with average damage of 18.88. However rolling that 1 or 2 would suck...)

edit: Obelisk+3 dda averages dead knight at 4++. Though obelisk can one shot one at times. Just needs 2 hits through. And with dda's if you can lure RIS and shoot at other knight obelisk averages 24 wounds...Albeit that is obviously going to be swingy on/off so not telling whole truth. You are actually wasting some damage so average output isn't going to be as nice).

Made me think what kind of list I could make with those. overlord, cryptek, 3x5 immortals, 3xscarab, 9 tesla tomb blades, 3 dda, 6 wraiths, obelisk. Kinda low on troops...

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 06:54:21


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in dk
Deranged Necron Destroyer






barontuman wrote:
dapperbandit wrote:
Aren't Scytheguard on paper still our best knight killers?


Nope you might as well be taking warriors to kill a knight. Wraiths are our best on paper, then scarabs, then DDA.

Edited to show points per wound taking into account amount of multiple damage and no 5++ in HtH

Assuming
Toughness 8
3+ 4++ vs shooting (new Rotate Ion Shield limit)
3+ vs Hand to Hand

Wounds per point (higher is better)
0.01587301587 Scytheguard
0.01709401709 Scarabs
0.01851851852 Wraiths
0.01234567901 Tesla
0.01701388889 Doomsday Cannon
0.0101010101 Warrior (rapid fire)

Interestingly, using this math to do 25 wounds to a knight in one shot, it would take the following point values of models
1575 Scytheguard
1462.5 Scarabs
1350 Wraiths
2025 Tesla
1469.387755 Doomsday Cannon
2475 Warrior (rapid fire)

Scytheguard can spend 1 CP to increase their damage output by 50% against Knights.

Scytheguard (no buffs): 24*0,5*3*1,5*0,5*28=756 pts
Scytheguard (Novokh, Anrakyr, +1 S Stratagem): 24*0,5*2*1,125*0,333*28=252 pts (in other words 10 Novokh Lychguard within 6" of Anrakyr with the +1 S Strat will kill a Knight in one turn)
Scarabs: 24*3*3*1,5*0,25*13=1053 pts
Wraiths: 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,5*0,333*48=1295 pts
Wraiths (Novokh, Crimson Haze): 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,125*0,273*48=796 pts
Tesla Immortals (+0): 24*3*3*0,5*15=1620 pts
Tesla Immortals (+1): 24*3*3*0,333*15=1079 pts
Tesla Immortals (+2, Triarch Stalker): 24*3*3*0,2334*15=756 pts
DDA (full power cannon vs. 5++): 24/3,5*1,5*1,5*1,5/3,5*160=1057 pts
DDA (Rapid Fire and no moving vs. 5++): = 810 pts
Destroyer (vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*3*36/28*0,333*50=1156 pts
Destroyer (Protocols vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*9/5*36/32*0,333*50=606 pts
Warrior (RF): 24*2*6*1,5*0,5*11=2376 pts

So yeah.. Warriors are the worst because they wound on 6s. DDAs kind of suck but they have range going for them, Wraiths are terrible rather than the best, while Scytheguard are the best in strict opposite to you claiming they are the worst. Tesla Immortals are pretty good when paired with MWBD, Methodical Destruction and a Triarch Stalker. Destroyers with Protocols will do okay damage to a Knight, but you'll always see a rotation when that happens, which means a 33% increase in the number of pts worth of shooting you need to kill the Knight. For the Lychguard you'd see a 100% increase in number of pts needed if your opponent has a 4++ in melee, 33% in the case of Wraiths.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 07:57:38


 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





 vict0988 wrote:
barontuman wrote:
dapperbandit wrote:
Aren't Scytheguard on paper still our best knight killers?


Nope you might as well be taking warriors to kill a knight. Wraiths are our best on paper, then scarabs, then DDA.

Edited to show points per wound taking into account amount of multiple damage and no 5++ in HtH

Assuming
Toughness 8
3+ 4++ vs shooting (new Rotate Ion Shield limit)
3+ vs Hand to Hand

Wounds per point (higher is better)
0.01587301587 Scytheguard
0.01709401709 Scarabs
0.01851851852 Wraiths
0.01234567901 Tesla
0.01701388889 Doomsday Cannon
0.0101010101 Warrior (rapid fire)

Interestingly, using this math to do 25 wounds to a knight in one shot, it would take the following point values of models
1575 Scytheguard
1462.5 Scarabs
1350 Wraiths
2025 Tesla
1469.387755 Doomsday Cannon
2475 Warrior (rapid fire)

Scytheguard can spend 1 CP to increase their damage output by 50% against Knights.

Scytheguard (no buffs): 24*0,5*3*1,5*0,5*28=756 pts
Scytheguard (Novokh, Anrakyr, +1 S Stratagem): 24*0,5*2*1,125*0,333*28=252 pts (in other words 10 Novokh Lychguard within 6" of Anrakyr with the +1 S Strat will kill a Knight in one turn)
Scarabs: 24*3*3*1,5*0,25*13=1053 pts
Wraiths: 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,5*0,333*48=1295 pts
Wraiths (Novokh, Crimson Haze): 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,125*0,273*48=796 pts
Tesla Immortals (+0): 24*3*3*0,5*15=1620 pts
Tesla Immortals (+1): 24*3*3*0,333*15=1079 pts
Tesla Immortals (+2, Triarch Stalker): 24*3*3*0,2334*15=756 pts
DDA (full power cannon vs. 5++): 24/3,5*1,5*1,5*1,5/3,5*160=1057 pts
DDA (Rapid Fire and no moving vs. 5++): = 810 pts
Destroyer (vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*3*36/28*0,333*50=1156 pts
Destroyer (Protocols vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*9/5*36/32*0,333*50=606 pts
Warrior (RF): 24*2*6*1,5*0,5*11=2376 pts

So yeah.. Warriors are the worst because they wound on 6s. DDAs kind of suck but they have range going for them, Wraiths are terrible rather than the best, while Scytheguard are the best in strict opposite to you claiming they are the worst. Tesla Immortals are pretty good when paired with MWBD, Methodical Destruction and a Triarch Stalker. Destroyers with Protocols will do okay damage to a Knight, but you'll always see a rotation when that happens, which means a 33% increase in the number of pts worth of shooting you need to kill the Knight. For the Lychguard you'd see a 100% increase in number of pts needed if your opponent has a 4++ in melee, 33% in the case of Wraiths.


I agree with the usage og +1S, but not Anrakyr, that is a quite unrealistic buff. (since only Deceiver can transport him). Sure through careful positioning you could hope to lure the knight into a trap wherein Anrakyr can advance to be in range of charging Lychguard, but thats a tall order to factor into the equation.

Also if you give the LG Novokh, you could give the warriors Nihilakh or Mephrit for a more fair comparison

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 08:03:15


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torblind wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:

Scytheguard (no buffs): 24*0,5*3*1,5*0,5*28=756 pts
Scytheguard (Novokh, Anrakyr, +1 S Stratagem): 24*0,5*2*1,125*0,333*28=252 pts (in other words 10 Novokh Lychguard within 6" of Anrakyr with the +1 S Strat will kill a Knight in one turn)
Scarabs: 24*3*3*1,5*0,25*13=1053 pts
Wraiths: 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,5*0,333*48=1295 pts
Wraiths (Novokh, Crimson Haze): 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,125*0,273*48=796 pts
Tesla Immortals (+0): 24*3*3*0,5*15=1620 pts
Tesla Immortals (+1): 24*3*3*0,333*15=1079 pts
Tesla Immortals (+2, Triarch Stalker): 24*3*3*0,2334*15=756 pts
DDA (full power cannon vs. 5++): 24/3,5*1,5*1,5*1,5/3,5*160=1057 pts
DDA (Rapid Fire and no moving vs. 5++): = 810 pts
Destroyer (vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*3*36/28*0,333*50=1156 pts
Destroyer (Protocols vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*9/5*36/32*0,333*50=606 pts
Warrior (RF): 24*2*6*1,5*0,5*11=2376 pts


I agree with the usage og +1S, but not Anrakyr, that is a quite unrealistic buff. (since only Deceiver can transport him). Sure through careful positioning you could hope to lure the knight into a trap wherein Anrakyr can advance to be in range of charging Lychguard, but thats a tall order to factor into the equation.

Also if you give the LG Novokh, you could give the warriors Nihilakh or Mephrit for a more fair comparison

If we are talking in terms of pure killiness Lychguard are better than Warriors no matter how you spin it, I've played a ton of games with my Warrior heavy list against Knights. Putting Mephrit on them doesn't help that much, especially not against what was often a 3++ Knight and Nihilakh means no movement which probably means no RF.

Most likely your opponent will soften up your Lychguard enough that they lose the power to one-shot the Knight if you take a single unit of 10. The most reliable way I've found for getting them into combat is taking 30 and marching them up the board with Anrakyr, a single unit of 10 is basically useless, too easy to remove or ignore. I don't even think my 30 LG list is a Knight counter, they just happen to be able to obliterate Knights in melee in a turn, but they are super slow and a good Knight player would probably outplay me with the M12 on their Knights. I do think Anrakyr is fairly easy to keep in range if you are willing to sacrifice a 3-6 attacks to chain back to him. Using the Veil to get into a Knight is a waste of pts, even if you make it in you need to spend 4 CP to kill the Knight, so you are spending 5 CP because you'll probably need to re-roll a charge dice, you need an HQ and a Relic and you waste 350 pts if you fail the charge.

I don't like counter-charging units except for characters, a single melee unit is going to be useless against shooting lists with a minimum of screening and might not even pose a bigger threat to melee armies than the equivalent pts spent on more shooting, so I'm definitely not advocating for including LG in your lists to counter Knights. Like with the fella who took 6 Wraiths in his Sautekh list, why not lean more heavily into shooting? Take 6 Destroyers instead, those actually benefit from your Stratagems and your Dynasty. Scarabs are an exception because I wouldn't really call them a melee unit, they are sort of an all-purpose unit and are alright in any Dynasty while being absolutely amazing in Nephrekh and Novokh.

Anrakyr also happens to be able to hack into a Knights weapons, which is amazing for his cost, with a re-roll you'll be firing the RF Battle Cannon 75% of the time, not that I've remembered that ability in even half my games with him.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





 vict0988 wrote:


So yeah.. Warriors are the worst because they wound on 6s. DDAs kind of suck but they have range going for them, Wraiths are terrible rather than the best, while Scytheguard are the best in strict opposite to you claiming they are the worst. Tesla Immortals are pretty good when paired with MWBD, Methodical Destruction and a Triarch Stalker. Destroyers with Protocols will do okay damage to a Knight, but you'll always see a rotation when that happens, which means a 33% increase in the number of pts worth of shooting you need to kill the Knight. For the Lychguard you'd see a 100% increase in number of pts needed if your opponent has a 4++ in melee, 33% in the case of Wraiths.


Again though that assumes you somehow manage to scythe through couple layers of infantry without getting shot to pieces. How can unit that will not lay their fingers on knight be best? They aren't getting into close combat. Necrons lack delivery methods to bring them. You planning to DS monolith, have it survive and assault on T3 or something?

Warriors are way better because while their damage output sucks compared to lychguard they, unlike lychguard, actually have ways to actually DO them.

When lychguard can do the damage from at least 12" away then you have point. As is it's not going to work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 09:07:27


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UK, Midlands

I don't know why Warriors and Lychguard are being compared for Knight killing. Warriors are terrible vs a Knight and should always be shooting at something else, unless you just need to get 1 or 2 wounds through. Lychguard are actually a legitimate threat to a Knight, although getting them to it can be tricky.

An Overlord with the Veil, and the reroll charges warlord trait, is the most cost-effective delivery method for them. With MWBD, reroll charges, and the option to reroll 1 charge dice with a CP, the Lychguard have ~70% chance to make a charge out of deepstrike. With MWBD and +1S they do an average of 17 wounds to a knight.

You of course need to clear the screens with Tesla first, which can be the hard part. I've never had much difficulty hiding this unit till it's time to Veil into action.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I don't know why Warriors and Lychguard are being compared for Knight killing. Warriors are terrible vs a Knight and should always be shooting at something else, unless you just need to get 1 or 2 wounds through. Lychguard are actually a legitimate threat to a Knight, although getting them to it can be tricky.

An Overlord with the Veil, and the reroll charges warlord trait, is the most cost-effective delivery method for them. With MWBD, reroll charges, and the option to reroll 1 charge dice with a CP, the Lychguard have ~70% chance to make a charge out of deepstrike. With MWBD and +1S they do an average of 17 wounds to a knight.

You of course need to clear the screens with Tesla first, which can be the hard part. I've never had much difficulty hiding this unit till it's time to Veil into action.



Both are bad but for different reasons. Warriors struggle to wound but then again lychguard have flat out damage output 0 unless knight player is idiot or you spend ridiculous amount of resources(maybe deceiver+like 3 monoliths to ensure at least one survives until your turn and even then requires you to have firepower to clear enough of the 60+ troopers to punch hole...).


78% actually...Except again you will have to be sitting duck somewhere for couple turns to ensure hole to charge from. You don't just DS+charge unless knight player WANTS you to do so...

Lychguard is good if opponent is noob rookie who doesn't know to bring chaff along.

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5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





Yeah I don't at all see warriors as viable against knights.. They require more support from the list (Immortal pride, perhaps a GA).

10 immortals are on par or always better (MWBD) than 20 warriors, and much cheaper. And the only require an overlord with a MWBD to hand out, which you most likely will have. They can also stand safely with 10 models at 24" while the warriors have to fit 20 models inside a 12" bubble around the knight to even have a meaningful impact damage wise.


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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot



UK, Midlands

tneva82 wrote:


Both are bad but for different reasons. Warriors struggle to wound but then again lychguard have flat out damage output 0 unless knight player is idiot or you spend ridiculous amount of resources(maybe deceiver+like 3 monoliths to ensure at least one survives until your turn and even then requires you to have firepower to clear enough of the 60+ troopers to punch hole...).


78% actually...Except again you will have to be sitting duck somewhere for couple turns to ensure hole to charge from. You don't just DS+charge unless knight player WANTS you to do so...

Lychguard is good if opponent is noob rookie who doesn't know to bring chaff along.


I think you're overstating the difficulty a bit here. Assaulting out of deepstrike is not something that only works against idiots, it's a common tactic in 8th edition, which is why screening chaff is common, which is why chaff clearing units are common.

That's not to say that it's easy, but Lychguard with 78% chance to charge + Tesla for chaff clearing makes Necrons fairly good at it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 11:35:23


 
   
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1 h2h threat and small one at that isn't that bad. Also necron's don't actually have point efficient chaff clearers...Immortals are rather bad for points vs IG troopers for example. sure if knight player has only 1 squad it works...But they have like 6 as MINIMUM. And can ensure immortals won't have range on T1 anyway if they don't want(29" threat range is small) all the while bombarding lychguard waiting for their time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 11:39:06


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12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
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Freaky Flayed One



United Kingdom

Agreed, I know Lychguard are expensive for what they do but talking about needing 3 monoliths etc is a bit ridiculous.

It's worth pointing out that I did say they were our best knight killers *on paper*

Wraiths don't get the same amount of attacks as a full strength unit of lychguard and will find it harder to wound, but are far more likely to survive the overwatch and fight back, and situationally (or with a second unit) can wrap and trap a knight, something that will be much easier now that they can move through models on the charge again thanks to the FAQ.

I understand there's debatable relevance to asking these things in a vacuum but this is not impossible feats we're talking about here; I've literally seen it happen. There is a whole shooting phase that can deal with screens and/or deal additional damage to the damage which compliments the fight phase.
   
 
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