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Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Is it just me, or is it kind of odd that beastmenn are chaos and not destruction?

I know why they are in the fluff. I also know they got ported from chaos in WF.

But if they where to redesign beastmenn would it not make sence to put them in destruction? They mostly destroy things and erect them ugly herd stones. It would be cool to make them destruction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 11:36:15


   
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Biloxi, MS USA

No, it really wouldn't. The Destruction faction is about the destruction of civilization and the fighting, Beastmen are about the spread of absolute anarchy and killing everything that isn't them(their allegiance to Mortal Chaos is tenuous at best since they're too organized and often too dedicated to a single god for Beasts' liking). They don't share any values or goals beyond the very superficial similarity of "break things".

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/04 23:55:34


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Bergen

But is not breaking things what destruction is about?

   
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Biloxi, MS USA

 Niiai wrote:
But is not breaking things what destruction is about?


You missed the point. It's not about what Destruction is about, it's about what BEASTMEN are about. Their aims and goals don't align with those of the Factions that are in Destruction(except through that ONE superficial similarity), they align with those of Chaos.

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Bergen

What is destruction about then? The goblins seem to just wanne get high. Not very destructive. They seem to be defined by their innabilaty to work within the framework of civilisation.

I have the Ogor book. They just pillage and loot and eat stuff. Some of them train animals. Some are on an eternal pilgrimage because of the blizzard. But they identify themselves as beeing the digestive fluids of the destruction good. I have not read up on the orks and the goblins. Ogors have this ritualistic thing where they carve the landskape up in a distructive path of consumption to bring home to eat.

Beastmenn just run around, tear gak up, loot weapons, preprocriate and erect herd stones. Or am I missing something? That sounds very destructive to me.

All they would need to do is to have an story event where Girkamorka takes a hostile takeover of the magic of the herdstones. Have him wrest it from the chaos gods. Now the beastmen would draw their power from him. Same result. Just put them in destruction. Works like a charm. And Gorkamorka would actually have done something in the setting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 12:13:42


   
Made in ca
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






Beastmen are creatures made of the powers of Chaos, which is why they are part of chaos.

It's their corruption and mutation which sets them firmly in the camp of Chaos, and not Destruction.

Also, Gloomspite don't want to "Just get High", they are working to spread the Everdank across the realms.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 12:27:53


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 Platuan4th wrote:
No, it really wouldn't. The Destruction faction is about the destruction of civilization and the fighting, Beastmen are about the spread of absolute anarchy and killing everything that isn't them.


Actually, they kill each other as well.

And that's pretty much what Destruction does : destroying, killing and anarchy.

Chaos is all about Chaos gods. Beastmen in AoS...they actually loathe the gods and they see those who are devoted to them as not true beastmen.


Beasts of Chaos were made that way because they were Chaos in WHFB and they were basically a copy-and-paste with their units. But the background is significantly different in AoS (they also talk about a creator of beastmen in the Age of Myth that's not the Chaos gods themselves). And the similarity with Kragnos is troubling...sure, he says his people are gone, but what if he just didn't find them so far ? Well actually, he says "only the weaks remain"...

Future redesign of Beasts of Chaos miniatures could be bringing something interesting. Wilder, less chaotic, more destructive...shift would be a big shake for sure, but hey, that's why the Broken Realm series is so great ; it changes and shake things.

Ah. See what I did ? Shake ? Kragnos being the Living Earthquake ? No...? Okay I'm out.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 19:39:03


 
   
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Bergen

Yeah something similar was running through my head. Rebranding Beastmen from Chaos to Destruction by way of narrative book would be awesome. Gorkamorka or Kragnos could syphon power from the chaos god. And it is now destructive power instead of chaos that corrupts the local animal.

This is wishful thinking of course. But it would make a better divide between Destruction and Chaos as beastmen sort of blurs that line as of now. It would also reduce chaos bloat and give destruction a wider range and actually having accomplished something in the setting.

   
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I think it would be cool if beastmen, like humans end up being split between the chaos and non chaos pantheons in large numbers.

   
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Carlovonsexron wrote:
I think it would be cool if beastmen, like humans end up being split between the chaos and non chaos pantheons in large numbers.


Yes, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Beastman can be both and everyone can be Death.

Mixing the factions across the alliances more would reinforce the notion of them being cultural philosophies rather than anything tangible.

A full on berserker barbarian human army could easily be a destruction force for example.

It would also be cool to see more monstrous Order armies - imagine a disciplined army of shining armoured Gors evolving out of the bestial state they currently exist in. That could be cool.

   
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 Niiai wrote:
Yeah something similar was running through my head. Rebranding Beastmen from Chaos to Destruction by way of narrative book would be awesome. Gorkamorka or Kragnos could syphon power from the chaos god. And it is now destructive power instead of chaos that corrupts the local animal.

This is wishful thinking of course. But it would make a better divide between Destruction and Chaos as beastmen sort of blurs that line as of now. It would also reduce chaos bloat and give destruction a wider range and actually having accomplished something in the setting.


Plenty players who wouldn't be happy with their collection getting crippled like that though

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If Beastmen can be taken in Chaos, with a different allegiance ability, while also being in Destruction with a different allegiance ability, would that be a happy compromise? They remain chaos, but now there's a camp in Destruction, and they have different FACTION rules to show that they're unaligned with the powers of Chaos. Don't see why they couldn't swing it that way.

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I don't see how flip flopping between grand alliances is something the game, or beasts of chaos need.

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jaredb wrote:
I don't see how flip flopping between grand alliances is something the game, or beasts of chaos need.


There are humans in chaos and in order. There are plenty of other creatures that exist across alliances. Making beastmen do the same is no different.

   
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tneva82 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Yeah something similar was running through my head. Rebranding Beastmen from Chaos to Destruction by way of narrative book would be awesome. Gorkamorka or Kragnos could syphon power from the chaos god. And it is now destructive power instead of chaos that corrupts the local animal.

This is wishful thinking of course. But it would make a better divide between Destruction and Chaos as beastmen sort of blurs that line as of now. It would also reduce chaos bloat and give destruction a wider range and actually having accomplished something in the setting.


Plenty players who wouldn't be happy with their collection getting crippled like that though

If GW can kill Fantasy and squat swathes of models even during AoS I don't think they especially care.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/13 12:34:02


 
   
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It is an easy misunderstanding to make but there is a subtle yet critically important detail; Beastmen destroy as a means to an end. To be Destruction, the destroying must be the end to itself.

Not that it's a bad idea though, just give them both Destruction and Chaos keywords.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 07:06:33


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Niiai wrote:Is it just me, or is it kind of odd that beastmenn are chaos and not destruction?


Just you. No offense, but it is.

In 2010 some idiot called them "brown orcs" and enough people repeated that comment and other sweeping comments of doom, having no clue how either army actually worked.

Niiai wrote:Yeah something similar was running through my head. Rebranding Beastmen from Chaos to Destruction by way of narrative book would be awesome.

This is wishful thinking of course. But it would make a better divide between Destruction and Chaos as beastmen sort of blurs that line as of now. It would also reduce chaos bloat and give destruction a wider range and actually having accomplished something in the setting.


It would not be awesome. It would be irrational. For one, it would invalidate Slaangors completely which are a brand new kit. Just because someone thinks up an idea doesn't mean it's awesome. Having Beastmen maintain a sensible access to Chaos Markss gives them a drastically much wider range, fits with the lore and back stories and works with the army. I don't want to throw 30+ years of lore away based "oh this would be cool"...

jaredb wrote:I don't see how flip flopping between grand alliances is something the game, or beasts of chaos need.


Pretty much this. Just because one person every 10 years on the internet thinks up a reason for this change doesn't validate it.

Arbitrator wrote:
If GW can kill Fantasy and squat swathes of models even during AoS I don't think they especially care.


There is a difference between saving a game by evolving the lore than not caring. Let's try not to just be butt hurt from change. Fantasy didn't die; it changed. It's healthier than it's been this century. It did however progress and no longer be a clone of Moorcock and by extension of Tolkein D&D. No one was upset in 8th ed they weren't using 4th edition rules.

GW made a decent attempt at a Beasts of Chaos book in AoS. They just missed the mark with poor rules design which they did really effectively in two previous iterations of the game before they "DID SWEEPING COMPLAINTS OF DOOM",.. changed to AoS. The 2004 edition had poorly written rules which plagued subsequent editions (4-man wide Herds), and the 2010 book was just,.. outright terrible.

The army needs a good rules writer lead by a games developer.
   
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Beastmen have and always must be terrible, lest the apocalypse come.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/31 23:03:11


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popisdead wrote:
Niiai wrote:Is it just me, or is it kind of odd that beastmenn are chaos and not destruction?


Just you. No offense, but it is.

In 2010 some idiot called them "brown orcs" and enough people repeated that comment and other sweeping comments of doom, having no clue how either army actually worked.

Niiai wrote:Yeah something similar was running through my head. Rebranding Beastmen from Chaos to Destruction by way of narrative book would be awesome.

This is wishful thinking of course. But it would make a better divide between Destruction and Chaos as beastmen sort of blurs that line as of now. It would also reduce chaos bloat and give destruction a wider range and actually having accomplished something in the setting.


It would not be awesome. It would be irrational. For one, it would invalidate Slaangors completely which are a brand new kit. Just because someone thinks up an idea doesn't mean it's awesome. Having Beastmen maintain a sensible access to Chaos Markss gives them a drastically much wider range, fits with the lore and back stories and works with the army. I don't want to throw 30+ years of lore away based "oh this would be cool"...

jaredb wrote:I don't see how flip flopping between grand alliances is something the game, or beasts of chaos need.


Pretty much this. Just because one person every 10 years on the internet thinks up a reason for this change doesn't validate it.

Arbitrator wrote:
If GW can kill Fantasy and squat swathes of models even during AoS I don't think they especially care.


There is a difference between saving a game by evolving the lore than not caring. Let's try not to just be butt hurt from change. Fantasy didn't die; it changed. It's healthier than it's been this century. It did however progress and no longer be a clone of Moorcock and by extension of Tolkein D&D. No one was upset in 8th ed they weren't using 4th edition rules.

GW made a decent attempt at a Beasts of Chaos book in AoS. They just missed the mark with poor rules design which they did really effectively in two previous iterations of the game before they "DID SWEEPING COMPLAINTS OF DOOM",.. changed to AoS. The 2004 edition had poorly written rules which plagued subsequent editions (4-man wide Herds), and the 2010 book was just,.. outright terrible.

The army needs a good rules writer lead by a games developer.



It's no more irrational than humans elves and dwarfs being order and chaos. It's more artificially constrained to force species populations to conform to a single grand alliance, than it is to have those species spread across different alliances in different civilisations.

Having Chaos beastmen and destruction beastmen is no more outlandish than order dwarfs and chaos dwarfs.

It's trivially easy to write a justification, especially with a new emergent god that looks like a centigor, to have a faction of beastmen turn to a destruction god as their preferred god. Maybe even one that is centigor heavy and they upset the social heirarchy so that centigors are the boss.




   
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Biloxi, MS USA

Kragnos barely looks like a Centigor. Centigors have feline lower bodies with paws and ram horns vs Kragnos' traditional horse body and stag horns. Kragnos matches the Kurnothi centaur way more than he does Centigors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/03 11:57:18


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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For someone looking from the outside and not knowing the deeper motivations and culture of BoC/Destruction it is not an unjustified assumption to make. Even though for us who have spent years with these factions the differences are immediately obvious. I think it's wrong to begrudge someone for making an honest inquiry on the matter.

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 Hellebore wrote:
It's no more irrational than humans elves and dwarfs being order and chaos. It's more artificially constrained to force species populations to conform to a single grand alliance, than it is to have those species spread across different alliances in different civilisations.

Having Chaos beastmen and destruction beastmen is no more outlandish than order dwarfs and chaos dwarfs.

It's trivially easy to write a justification, especially with a new emergent god that looks like a centigor, to have a faction of beastmen turn to a destruction god as their preferred god. Maybe even one that is centigor heavy and they upset the social heirarchy so that centigors are the boss.


But there are no chaos elves though and there is a legitimate reason for that, Slaanesh ate them. This is firmly rooted in the setting and I for one would like it way more they make the stuff we have feel deep and unique than slot everything around so it doesn't properly belong anywhere anymore, just for the sake of options. Don't get me wrong, I too think Destruction needs to be fleshed out really bad. This is not a "You shouldn't get to play with my toys!!!11", but if the army interests you, then why not play it the way it is right now?
I really don't get the argument, it feels to me as if Chaos players would say "Hey we have the Chimera and that one new mount, those look like dinosaurs. We should have Lizardmen. We can sort out the fluff later.". Both is a pretty shaky parallel and wouldn't do anything for the game as a whole.

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 Shadox wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
It's no more irrational than humans elves and dwarfs being order and chaos. It's more artificially constrained to force species populations to conform to a single grand alliance, than it is to have those species spread across different alliances in different civilisations.

Having Chaos beastmen and destruction beastmen is no more outlandish than order dwarfs and chaos dwarfs.

It's trivially easy to write a justification, especially with a new emergent god that looks like a centigor, to have a faction of beastmen turn to a destruction god as their preferred god. Maybe even one that is centigor heavy and they upset the social heirarchy so that centigors are the boss.


But there are no chaos elves though and there is a legitimate reason for that, Slaanesh ate them. This is firmly rooted in the setting and I for one would like it way more they make the stuff we have feel deep and unique than slot everything around so it doesn't properly belong anywhere anymore, just for the sake of options. Don't get me wrong, I too think Destruction needs to be fleshed out really bad. This is not a "You shouldn't get to play with my toys!!!11", but if the army interests you, then why not play it the way it is right now?
I really don't get the argument, it feels to me as if Chaos players would say "Hey we have the Chimera and that one new mount, those look like dinosaurs. We should have Lizardmen. We can sort out the fluff later.". Both is a pretty shaky parallel and wouldn't do anything for the game as a whole.


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Gathering the Informations.

The WarCry warbands are in a heckin' weird spot, where we have these little one off examples and they're kinda/sorta chaos but it's little "c" chaos rather than big "C" Chaos, with the entities they're devoted to maybe being different facets of the Big 4.

It's a Ghyranite warband, hailing from the Realm of Life. Those within it are representative of that. Hence the Elf.
   
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Point being that we do have chaos elves. They are a canonical thing.

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 Platuan4th wrote:
Kragnos barely looks like a Centigor. Centigors have feline lower bodies with paws and ram horns vs Kragnos' traditional horse body and stag horns. Kragnos matches the Kurnothi centaur way more than he does Centigors.


Seems like an odd distinction to make - that the mutant beastly beastmen known for their wildly varying appearances, are now only this particular phentotype to justify them only being a member of the faction that generates the most inconsistency and mutation...

   
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Biloxi, MS USA

 Hellebore wrote:
that the mutant beastly beastmen known for their wildly varying appearances,.


In fluff, NOT in models. The Beastmen models since 4th have always had a very unified appearance on the tabletop. And even in the fluff, the Beastmen as a herd separate themselves by phenotypes. To other races, Beastmen are Beastmen, but to Beastmen a Gor is not an Ungor nor a Centigor and human born "beastmen" and hornless aren't true Beastmen.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 01:00:43


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In Kragnos’ background, it’s made clear that his people allied with the Dragon races to topple the empires of Dragon Ogres, because they made a pact with Chaos.

Likewise, they’d hunt Beastmen because they’re inherently unnatural. An aberration and affront to Ghur itself.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In Kragnos’ background, it’s made clear that his people allied with the Dragon races to topple the empires of Dragon Ogres, because they made a pact with Chaos.

Likewise, they’d hunt Beastmen because they’re inherently unnatural. An aberration and affront to Ghur itself.


perfect opportunity for a beastman herd to adopt a self flagellating martyrdom, following a god that thinks they live in sin so they throw themselves into battle to win his redemption.

   
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 Hellebore wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In Kragnos’ background, it’s made clear that his people allied with the Dragon races to topple the empires of Dragon Ogres, because they made a pact with Chaos.

Likewise, they’d hunt Beastmen because they’re inherently unnatural. An aberration and affront to Ghur itself.


perfect opportunity for a beastman herd to adopt a self flagellating martyrdom, following a god that thinks they live in sin so they throw themselves into battle to win his redemption.


So a Beastman army that goes against the entirety of Beastman lore where they view themselves as the only true children of Chaos and thus above every other race?

Someone telling Beastmen that they're scum is just going to have Beastmen double down on how hard they'll tear that being apart not make them reflect inwardly. These aren't introspective or philosophical beings.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/15 12:47:58


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