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Like, can she?
   
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Are we going by fluff or Table top?

Fluff - No. A single Marine can take out entire squads of the Druks with just a combat knife (Brothers of the snake) and Custodes can take out whole squads of Marines.

Tabletop she would wreck his gak.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are we going by fluff or Table top?

Fluff - No. A single Marine can take out entire squads of the Druks with just a combat knife (Brothers of the snake) and Custodes can take out whole squads of Marines.

Tabletop she would wreck his gak.

I thought Lelith stomped several marines lore-wise, and defeated a sm champion once. I still don’t know the answer, but she’s not your average druks.
   
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Barring someone like Valdor, I would say yes. She is known as one of THE consummate duelists in Drukhari society, where arena fighting against the deadliest combatants is one of their specialties. It says something that she only uses simple knives and no combat drugs and yet is still able to defeat power armoured foes. She's up there with Skulltaker and other top tier duelists, if it's just your bog standard custode she can definitely kill them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/07 19:39:20


 
   
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Fluff is inconsistent is really the best we can say. Yes she's taken down Marines outside their power armor, without their weapons, but I really doubt they have ever "Caught" a Custodian before. It wasn't until the last 100 years they even left Terra, so it's practically impossible that a raiding party somehow "kidnaped" one.

Let alone a fully equipped one with their armor on. Remember, these guys have taken down WAY bigger threats single handidly than Lelith. Between Holding back hordes of Blood letters on Terra, or stopping Halequin Death Jesters, I would actually say a Death Jester is superior to a Lelith. But then again, The sisters fought the Custodes to a standstill in the palace during the days of Blood, so who can say. One day they are 1v1ing a Blood thirster/DP, and the next day they are almost killed by a Primaris Marine.

What would likely happen is Marbo would rocket down from Orbit, and Shout them both to death, and then fly off after Kamehameha-ing the entire planet.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/07 19:45:08


 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Fluff is inconsistent is really the best we can say. Yes she's taken down Marines outside their power armor, without their weapons, but I really doubt they have ever "Caught" a Custodian before. It wasn't until the last 100 years they even left Terra, so it's practically impossible that a raiding party somehow "kidnaped" one.

Let alone a fully equipped one with their armor on. Remember, these guys have taken down WAY bigger threats single handidly than Lelith. Between Holding back hordes of Blood letters on Terra, or stopping Halequin Death Jesters, I would actually say a Death Jester is superior to a Lelith. But then again, The sisters fought the Custodes to a standstill in the palace during the days of Blood, so who can say. One day they are 1v1ing a Blood thirster/DP, and the next day they are almost killed by a Primaris Marine.

What would likely happen is Marbo would rocket down from Orbit, and Shout them both to death, and then fly off after Kamehameha-ing the entire planet.

Nah, you missed my point there, she actually cut through marine armor in the Silent Hunter (including a librarian’s wrist), and made those look like butter with her knives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 19:52:50


 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Fluff is inconsistent is really the best we can say. Yes she's taken down Marines outside their power armor, without their weapons, but I really doubt they have ever "Caught" a Custodian before. It wasn't until the last 100 years they even left Terra, so it's practically impossible that a raiding party somehow "kidnaped" one.

Let alone a fully equipped one with their armor on. Remember, these guys have taken down WAY bigger threats single handidly than Lelith. Between Holding back hordes of Blood letters on Terra, or stopping Halequin Death Jesters, I would actually say a Death Jester is superior to a Lelith. But then again, The sisters fought the Custodes to a standstill in the palace during the days of Blood, so who can say. One day they are 1v1ing a Blood thirster/DP, and the next day they are almost killed by a Primaris Marine.

What would likely happen is Marbo would rocket down from Orbit, and Shout them both to death, and then fly off after Kamehameha-ing the entire planet.


I agree that GW fluff is inconsistent in many cases, but given that in the Beast Arises series, a small group of Harlequins are able to infiltrate the Imperial Palace and kill not only Lucifer Blacks guarding the area but also dozens of Custodes on their own. Meanwhile Lelith only felt challenged by the prospect of facing a Grand Harlequin, basically the Chapter Master or Phoenix Lord equivalent of Harlies, it kinda shows that she is likely more than capable of handling the average Custode if it needed one of the head honchos of the Harlequins to give her unease.

Death Jesters would NOT be anywhere close to be better than Lelith in a duel, they are ranged specialists and basically would have the same baseline CC ability as a Troupe Player.

Lelith has a LOT of feats by herself and she's lived for as long or longer than most Custodes in terms of fighting experience, her whole thing is being pretty much almost untouchable by most opponents. So only Valdor/Captain-General equivalents for Custodes could likely match her.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 20:01:32


 
   
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Yes, definitely.

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I would suggest that a named character, in their area of expertise, should have the beating of generic X.

Custards are obviously at the outer edge of this, as their fluff is relies on them being doubleplusgood.

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Greatest duelist/gladiator of a race with an entire subculture of duelists/gladiators who has killed everything she's fought in said gladiatorial arenas and is now allied to a faction of Aeldari that can resurrect the dead. I think Lelith would do just fine.

Spoiler:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are we going by fluff or Table top?

Fluff - No. A single Marine can take out entire squads of the Druks with just a combat knife (Brothers of the snake) and Custodes can take out whole squads of Marines.

Tabletop she would wreck his gak.

It's the 40k Background forum. Why would it be tabletop?
   
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Yes she could do it. Yes, the custodes are the best fighters the imperium of man has, and they would wreck most other factions characters gak in melee, but lelith is an anomaly. She is THE perfect duelist and has probably killed basically anything that moves in the galaxy upon the sands of the arena in commoragh.

So long story short, against a "normal" custodian, it might take her just a bit longer than usual to dismantle her prey, but she'd be able to do it.

Against Trajann Valoris, the current captain General? Since in the fluff he is described as the deadliest fighter within the whole imperium (not considering guilliman)....I think it would be a very close fight and could go either way.

Against Constantin Valdor the very first captain general? No chance, Valdor would stomp her. Then again he'd mop the floor with most things except primarchs and greater demons.
   
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Smart money is in Lelith. For sure.

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Since we are going purely by fluff, isn't there a chapter where in the Watchers of the Throne when Captain Valarian meets Guilleman and does his Custodes (I need to know how to kill you when I meet you) thing, and decides that he could beat Guilliman, but it would take all his effort and skill? He's incapable of boasting, and later he kills a Blood Thirster. By all intents and Purposes, plot armor aside, Valarian is a standard Custodian of the Hectarian (SP?) Guard. If he is baseline, and he "Could" kill Gman, doesn't that Elevate Custodes basically to Primarch levels? Also, he does the same thing with Trajaan and Gman, and comes to basically the same conclusion, only more favored towards Trajaan.

It all comes down to plot armor, and I say anything made to be a little golden Emperor is better than a Dark Elf Gladiator. It's like when Kharn kills Krole. It would be over before he knew it had happened.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Since we are going purely by fluff, isn't there a chapter where in the Watchers of the Throne when Captain Valarian meets Guilleman and does his Custodes (I need to know how to kill you when I meet you) thing, and decides that he could beat Guilliman, but it would take all his effort and skill? He's incapable of boasting, and later he kills a Blood Thirster. By all intents and Purposes, plot armor aside, Valarian is a standard Custodian of the Hectarian (SP?) Guard. If he is baseline, and he "Could" kill Gman, doesn't that Elevate Custodes basically to Primarch levels? Also, he does the same thing with Trajaan and Gman, and comes to basically the same conclusion, only more favored towards Trajaan.

It all comes down to plot armor, and I say anything made to be a little golden Emperor is better than a Dark Elf Gladiator. It's like when Kharn kills Krole. It would be over before he knew it had happened.


No. Valerian couldn't take guilliman. The excerpt you mean is probably him facing off against asterion moloc, chapter master of the minotaurs.
Valerian also didn't kill a bloodthirster in single combat like you insinuated, but he had help from aleya and a squad of grey knights.

Also there are shades even within the custodes, not everything is black and white. What I mean by that is, there are deadlier and less deadly custodians. Trajann Valoris is deadlier than Valerian for example, probably by quite a bit. And guilliman is on another level entirely simply by virtue of being a primarch.
Also lelith isn't just a dark eldar gladiator....she is THE dark eldar gladiator, she's arguably the most naturally skilled fighter in all of 40k so yeah....she can take a standard custodian, after probably a bit more struggle than her usual prey.
   
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Going by Lore - lelith wins - she might even find it a challenge.

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Spoiler:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Since we are going purely by fluff, isn't there a chapter where in the Watchers of the Throne when Captain Valarian meets Guilleman and does his Custodes (I need to know how to kill you when I meet you) thing, and decides that he could beat Guilliman, but it would take all his effort and skill? He's incapable of boasting, and later he kills a Blood Thirster. By all intents and Purposes, plot armor aside, Valarian is a standard Custodian of the Hectarian (SP?) Guard. If he is baseline, and he "Could" kill Gman, doesn't that Elevate Custodes basically to Primarch levels? Also, he does the same thing with Trajaan and Gman, and comes to basically the same conclusion, only more favored towards Trajaan.

It all comes down to plot armor, and I say anything made to be a little golden Emperor is better than a Dark Elf Gladiator. It's like when Kharn kills Krole. It would be over before he knew it had happened.

The Custodes have colossal egos. They hate Astartes because the Heresy and they hate the Primarchs because the Heresy. They think they are better than literally everyone else because they are peak humanity. They are the 40k personification of "While you did X, I studied the blade".
I would have to read WotT to find that exact passage but I'm fairly certain it isn't in there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 23:33:31


 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The sisters fought the Custodes to a standstill in the palace during the days of Blood, so who can say.
The sisters and custodes never fought. The custodes stayed out of fighting initially, and when they decided that it was time to end it they walked directly to the inner chamber without firing a shot (via secret passages), put down their weapons, and talked.
   
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 harlokin wrote:
I would suggest that a named character, in their area of expertise, should have the beating of generic X.

Custards are obviously at the outer edge of this, as their fluff is relies on them being doubleplusgood.

So, how would a fight between a custodes and Hesperax likely go?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A.T. wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The sisters fought the Custodes to a standstill in the palace during the days of Blood, so who can say.
The sisters and custodes never fought. The custodes stayed out of fighting initially, and when they decided that it was time to end it they walked directly to the inner chamber without firing a shot (via secret passages), put down their weapons, and talked.

You’re talking about the plot concerning the end of Goge Vandire, right?
Back to the topic, how would Hesperax fare against a custodes?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 02:54:51


 
   
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Don't custodes have like battle scars and stuff?

Think Lelith would probably turn 'em into hamburger meat in that case.

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 Cognitive wrote:
Like, can she?


I read somewhere on Dakka that her feet are too big - no way she could defeat a Custodes.

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 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Since we are going purely by fluff, isn't there a chapter where in the Watchers of the Throne when Captain Valarian meets Guilleman and does his Custodes (I need to know how to kill you when I meet you) thing, and decides that he could beat Guilliman, but it would take all his effort and skill? He's incapable of boasting, and later he kills a Blood Thirster. By all intents and Purposes, plot armor aside, Valarian is a standard Custodian of the Hectarian (SP?) Guard. If he is baseline, and he "Could" kill Gman, doesn't that Elevate Custodes basically to Primarch levels? Also, he does the same thing with Trajaan and Gman, and comes to basically the same conclusion, only more favored towards Trajaan.

It all comes down to plot armor, and I say anything made to be a little golden Emperor is better than a Dark Elf Gladiator. It's like when Kharn kills Krole. It would be over before he knew it had happened.

The Custodes have colossal egos. They hate Astartes because the Heresy and they hate the Primarchs because the Heresy. They think they are better than literally everyone else because they are peak humanity. They are the 40k personification of "While you did X, I studied the blade".
I would have to read WotT to find that exact passage but I'm fairly certain it isn't in there.


True but they are not stupid. Fezzik is mixing up excerpts. In no recent publication, and certainly not in one written by Chris wraight did a single custodes claim to be able to take on guilliman alone.
Do they believe that they can generally, as a group, end guilliman of they need to? Yes, definitely

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/08 04:20:24


 
   
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TangoTwoBravo wrote:
 Cognitive wrote:
Like, can she?


I read somewhere on Dakka that her feet are too big - no way she could defeat a Custodes.

Wait, what’s that supposed to mean, is that a reference of some text I’m not aware of or do you simply feel that a custodes >> Lelith.
   
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Considering Lelith defeated one of the greatest duelist of the Adeptus Astartes history, in full gear and armed with a relic blade, I believe she can take on a Custodes who, while significantly better than Space Marines, are still comparable. It would certainly be good fight though it would take a Custodian Captain to truly challenge her to her limits. Duels are basically Lelith's bread and butter. On a battlefield, she is much more vulnerable. One mistep and a guardsmen can kill her with ease. The easiest way to kill is simply to take her by surprise or overwhelm her with threats. Unlike a Custodian, a couple of well placed guards in ambush could kill her, while they would need a small miracle to kill a superhuman with a an armor comparable to that of a tank.
   
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Depends which one is the POV character. It's well-established by now in 40k that being the POV character makes you 5-50x as strong as normal.
   
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 Cognitive wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
I would suggest that a named character, in their area of expertise, should have the beating of generic X.

Custards are obviously at the outer edge of this, as their fluff is relies on them being doubleplusgood.

So, how would a fight between a custodes and Hesperax likely go?


I would definitely hand it to Hesperax, but I'm biased.

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 Cognitive wrote:
Like, can she?


Sweet sugar snacks of Shaimesh I certainly hope so! Lelith is possibly the most talented melee combatant among the eldar. Her competition for that title mostly consist of phoenix lord demigods. She has special rules stemming from just how much better she is than everyone else. She had WS 9 or 10 back when that was a thing meaning the only things approaching her talent were avatars of gods of war and perfection. If someone with that resume can't defeat a single one of the hundreds (thousands?) of golden boys that casually occupy the troop slot of their own faction... Well, that would make it pretty hard to ever get excited about any eldar's melee prowess ever again.

As for how the fight would look... The custodes would swing his weapon around a lot. Lelith, being less physically strong, would probably dodge a lot, land a bunch of seemingly minor cuts, and eventually the custodes would realize none of his ligaments are connected to the important bits any more. So she'd beat him the same way she beats most people, basically. It might just take a little longer.
   
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Could she? Yeah, probably.
Will she? Yeah, likely.

For one simple reason - Custodes are the perfect target to worf. And its already starting to happen, especially if ADB is the author.

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 Thairne wrote:
Could she? Yeah, probably.
Will she? Yeah, likely.

For one simple reason - Custodes are the perfect target to worf. And its already starting to happen, especially if ADB is the author.


So Custodes are going to be like the avatar of khaine, just for xenos factions? I wouldn't put it past BL authors to treat the golden boys in a similar fashion. Lelith shoud be able to do it though. Where I draw the line if she somehow starts to cut her way through whole squads of custodes, that's just not going to happen, but sadly BL author often lack nuance in that regard.
   
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 Cognitive wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
 Cognitive wrote:
Like, can she?


I read somewhere on Dakka that her feet are too big - no way she could defeat a Custodes.

Wait, what’s that supposed to mean, is that a reference of some text I’m not aware of or do you simply feel that a custodes >> Lelith.


Its a snipe at the newer Lelith model who's bare feet are a smidge too big imo as they seem sculpted to boot sized rather than barefoot

And as for could she, much like comics depends if its an IOM story or a Dark Kin story

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 08:45:13


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 Cognitive wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
 Cognitive wrote:
Like, can she?


I read somewhere on Dakka that her feet are too big - no way she could defeat a Custodes.

Wait, what’s that supposed to mean, is that a reference of some text I’m not aware of or do you simply feel that a custodes >> Lelith.


Sorry - there were several threads about the new model that completely fell apart - I was poking fun at those.

The winner of the fight would be what the particular author wanted, be it Black Library or fanfic.

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