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Hi guys,

Does GW have any standard Japanese transliteration for the 4 main Chaos gods? Whether from rulebooks, assembly guides, box labels, whatever?

My best guesses would be Korunu, Nuruguru, Tsunchi, and Suraneshi, but I'm hoping for something concrete.

Thanks.

Oo this is fun(being long time japanese student). Managed to find khorne in AOS warscroll(alas not all seem to have japanese warscroll).

Khorne: koon(コーン

Nurgle found from basic rule pdf:

Nurgle: naaguru (ナーグル)

Haven\t found slaanesh or tzeentch yet

That's a great start thank you.

I don't like Koon at all, but I can get down with Naaguru.

According to the GW battletomes, the transliterations are:

Khorne -> コーン / koon -> pronounced k-or-n (or as in horse)

Slaanesh -> スラーネッシュ / suraanesshu -> pronounced su-raa-nesshu

Tzeentch -> ティーンチ / tiinchi -> pronounced teen-chi

Nurgle -> ナーグル / naaguru -> pronounced nah-gu-ru

Wow, GW didn't even pick up some cool naming kanji for them, eh? Just straight to the kana! I guess that's more technically correct, but I think they missed an opportunity here.

Brilliant! Thanks for your help guys.

Audustum wrote:
Wow, GW didn't even pick up some cool naming kanji for them, eh? Just straight to the kana! I guess that's more technically correct, but I think they missed an opportunity here.

The problem being that Kanji have, in a sense, two components. Standard readings and the meaning. Due to the way the Japanese language is formed, Khorne's pronunciation would be divided into two parts kor and n. There are no kanji for just n, and even if there were the odds are that the meaning would be completely inaccurate and Khorne would end up meaning "Buttercup Princess" or something equally inappropriate. You could just use appropriate Kanji and then declare your own reading for them, but in doing so you'd have to print the Furigana (reading superscript) every time you use the name otherwise Japanese speakers are going to end up using a completely different spoken name, introducing possible confusion.

Chrysis wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Wow, GW didn't even pick up some cool naming kanji for them, eh? Just straight to the kana! I guess that's more technically correct, but I think they missed an opportunity here.

The problem being that Kanji have, in a sense, two components. Standard readings and the meaning. Due to the way the Japanese language is formed, Khorne's pronunciation would be divided into two parts kor and n. There are no kanji for just n, and even if there were the odds are that the meaning would be completely inaccurate and Khorne would end up meaning "Buttercup Princess" or something equally inappropriate. You could just use appropriate Kanji and then declare your own reading for them, but in doing so you'd have to print the Furigana (reading superscript) every time you use the name otherwise Japanese speakers are going to end up using a completely different spoken name, introducing possible confusion.

I speak Japanese and lived there, we can discuss without tutorial.

Jinmeiyō kanji regularly includes furigana already (as opposed to jōyō kanji) so I don't really see that as a barrier. It'd just look cooler in my opinion though. You are right they'd have to adjust the names slightly, but who cares? So he's 'Kor' in Japan, not a big deal in my opinion.

Chrysis wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Wow, GW didn't even pick up some cool naming kanji for them, eh? Just straight to the kana! I guess that's more technically correct, but I think they missed an opportunity here.

The problem being that Kanji have, in a sense, two components. Standard readings and the meaning. Due to the way the Japanese language is formed, Khorne's pronunciation would be divided into two parts kor and n. There are no kanji for just n, and even if there were the odds are that the meaning would be completely inaccurate and Khorne would end up meaning "Buttercup Princess" or something equally inappropriate. You could just use appropriate Kanji and then declare your own reading for them, but in doing so you'd have to print the Furigana (reading superscript) every time you use the name otherwise Japanese speakers are going to end up using a completely different spoken name, introducing possible confusion.

It wouldn't be that weird though. Cigarettes(tabakko in japanese) has kanji's making sense　and reading totally unrelated. Common for many country names when they bother adding kanji like 芬蘭(that's finland with kanji i have actually ran into that once in a book. Had to doubie check i saw what i thought i saw)

Non-linguist here. How does the warscroll spelling of Nurgle's name compare to the spelling for the real-world Mesopotamian deity of the same name?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Non-linguist here. How does the warscroll spelling of Nurgle's name compare to the spelling for the real-world Mesopotamian deity of the same name?

So general rule is that foreign words/names/places are in Katakana, which is probably why GW used Kana for Nurgle (my view would be that since he's fake from a fake place they should write it as it naturally occurs in Japan thus use kanji).

Anyway, finding a reference to Nergel in Japanese text was hard for me. It's not something that really comes up for them. After searching a bit about Nergel I found he was referenced in the Bible and decided that would probably be my easiest way of finding a Japanese transliteration of him. I used this source:

http://jcl.ibibles.net/012Kings2.htm#012-17

And looked up the reference to Nergal in the second Book of Kings. Internet informed me he's mentioned in 17:30. At that site, he's written in Katakana (which is why I included the explanation up above) as ネルガル ('ne-ru-ga-ru').

As mentioned above, the war scroll has him as: na-a-gu-ru (ナーグル).

Is the story about how this one Japanese god goes down to hell to get his wife back, but sees here decomposed body given birth to demons, very similar to the stories of how Nergal got his wife. It was a shared thing for many myths. The mykean and later dora greeks had their Persephona and Hades for example.

Plus the thing about sumerian god and king names is that depending on city they were often writen down in different ways. So there is a Nergal and there is another Nergal, who is different writen. Which explains multiple myths and the fact that in some cities he was the god of the underworld and in other the god of war and pestilance.

Ateji are basically never used any more for foreign words, it's all katakana now. Words like tobacco have ateji because they entered Japanese a long time ago (though these days just seeing the katakana version is more common there too).

Audustum wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Non-linguist here. How does the warscroll spelling of Nurgle's name compare to the spelling for the real-world Mesopotamian deity of the same name?

So general rule is that foreign words/names/places are in Katakana, which is probably why GW used Kana for Nurgle (my view would be that since he's fake from a fake place they should write it as it naturally occurs in Japan thus use kanji).

Anyway, finding a reference to Nergel in Japanese text was hard for me. It's not something that really comes up for them. After searching a bit about Nergel I found he was referenced in the Bible and decided that would probably be my easiest way of finding a Japanese transliteration of him. I used this source:

http://jcl.ibibles.net/012Kings2.htm#012-17

And looked up the reference to Nergal in the second Book of Kings. Internet informed me he's mentioned in 17:30. At that site, he's written in Katakana (which is why I included the explanation up above) as ネルガル ('ne-ru-ga-ru').

As mentioned above, the war scroll has him as: na-a-gu-ru (ナーグル).

Thanks! Cool to know. Out of curiosity, is it not viable to go to wikipedia with the language set to Japanese for this sort of thing? Does the website only ever use one form of writing or the other or something? Thanks for entertaining my idle curiosity.

Karol wrote:Is the story about how this one Japanese god goes down to hell to get his wife back, but sees here decomposed body given birth to demons, very similar to the stories of how Nergal got his wife. It was a shared thing for many myths. The mykean and later dora greeks had their Persephona and Hades for example.

There are definitely some overlapping themes, although the Izanagi and Izanami story probably more closely resembles the story of Orpheus and Eurydice than the stories of Nergal or Persephone in the underworld. Well. Mostly. The Izanagi/Izanami story sometimes has this conclusion where one god promises to kill a bunch of people every day prompting the other god to promise to create even more lives every day. So you could sort of kind of tie that to the seasonal/rebirth themes present in the Nergal and Persephone stories. But the literal plot of, "Go to underworld to try and save girlfriend but fail," is probably closer to the Orpheus myth.

Not that the Orpheus myth doesn't likely share roots with the Persephone story, the Nergal story, and other stories containing elements of traveling to and returning from the underworld.

Plus the thing about sumerian god and king names is that depending on city they were often writen down in different ways. So there is a Nergal and there is another Nergal, who is different writen. Which explains multiple myths and the fact that in some cities he was the god of the underworld and in other the god of war and pestilance.

I'm sure that's a thing. There's also the phenomenon of cultures incorporating each others' deities into their own stories in ways that (sometimes literally) demonize those deities. So it could just be that someone who didn't particularly like Nergal opted to sling shade by associating him with pestilence. (Not sure if that technically counts as syncretization or not.)

I do find the story of 40k's Nurgle and Isha fun to examine in that it features a heavily modified version of a realworld mythological figure (Nurgle) with another character heavily influenced by popular neopagan and general fertility goddess themes (Isha) and utilizes motifs reminiscent of but not totally identical to those influences. It feels like the sort of story you might come across in real-world mythology but also wears its derivative nature on its sleeve. That's kind of neat. I could spend all day thinking about the significance of taking a fertility goddess from her horned god consort and giving her to an underworld/death/pestilence figure.

Durning religion classes, our teacher told us how summerian, then later on greeks, and later christians used to combine multiple deities in to one. Mother Mary with baby Jesus is just Izyda with baby Horus. Different Zeuses, different Aphrodites etc are just once different gods that people decided to agree on being kind of the same later on. That is why we get bizzar stuff like virigin huntress Artemis, also be the hundred breasted in Ephesus.

There are definitely some overlapping themes, although the Izanagi and Izanami story probably more closely resembles the story of Orpheus and Eurydice than the stories of Nergal or Persephone in the underworld. Well. Mostly. The Izanagi/Izanami story sometimes has this conclusion where one god promises to kill a bunch of people every day prompting the other god to promise to create even more lives every day.

Where there is this version of the myth when Nergal is told by the high god to not eat, wash or have sex with anything in the underworld, and he does it anyway for 6 days, then flees. The queen of underworld forces the high god to send Nergal back , which of course doesn't want to. So he goes down the the under world rapes and beats her up, and becomes the king of the underworld and she marries him, because he is stronger. And in the myth it is used as an explanation why the god of pestiliance and war is the king of underworld, and why wars are sesonal. You can't have wars when Nergal is in the underworld.

Maybe not the same, but close to it. Probably a general super ancient pre sumerian under world myth. It pop ups in too many places for it to not be so. Specialy the part about eating or taking stuff from the underworld binding you to it.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Non-linguist here. How does the warscroll spelling of Nurgle's name compare to the spelling for the real-world Mesopotamian deity of the same name?

So general rule is that foreign words/names/places are in Katakana, which is probably why GW used Kana for Nurgle (my view would be that since he's fake from a fake place they should write it as it naturally occurs in Japan thus use kanji).

Anyway, finding a reference to Nergel in Japanese text was hard for me. It's not something that really comes up for them. After searching a bit about Nergel I found he was referenced in the Bible and decided that would probably be my easiest way of finding a Japanese transliteration of him. I used this source:

http://jcl.ibibles.net/012Kings2.htm#012-17

And looked up the reference to Nergal in the second Book of Kings. Internet informed me he's mentioned in 17:30. At that site, he's written in Katakana (which is why I included the explanation up above) as ネルガル ('ne-ru-ga-ru').

As mentioned above, the war scroll has him as: na-a-gu-ru (ナーグル).

Thanks! Cool to know. Out of curiosity, is it not viable to go to wikipedia with the language set to Japanese for this sort of thing? Does the website only ever use one form of writing or the other or something? Thanks for entertaining my idle curiosity.

So I'll admit, I plumb hadn't thought of that. Sometimes you miss the easy route right in front of you. Wikipedia writes it the same as what I found for the Bible translation: ネルガル ('ne-ru-ga-ru'). In case you are curious, the link is here:

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%8D%E3%83%AB%E3%82%AC%E3%83%AB

They give his alternate names too:
ニルガル ('ni-ru-gu-ru')

エラ ('e-te')

メスラムタエア ('me-su-te-mu-ta-e-a')

Which are:

Nirgar
Ella
Meslamtaea

Respectively I think.

Audustum wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Wow, GW didn't even pick up some cool naming kanji for them, eh? Just straight to the kana! I guess that's more technically correct, but I think they missed an opportunity here.

The problem being that Kanji have, in a sense, two components. Standard readings and the meaning. Due to the way the Japanese language is formed, Khorne's pronunciation would be divided into two parts kor and n. There are no kanji for just n, and even if there were the odds are that the meaning would be completely inaccurate and Khorne would end up meaning "Buttercup Princess" or something equally inappropriate. You could just use appropriate Kanji and then declare your own reading for them, but in doing so you'd have to print the Furigana (reading superscript) every time you use the name otherwise Japanese speakers are going to end up using a completely different spoken name, introducing possible confusion.

I speak Japanese and lived there, we can discuss without tutorial.

Jinmeiyō kanji regularly includes furigana already (as opposed to jōyō kanji) so I don't really see that as a barrier. It'd just look cooler in my opinion though.

I mean, it might look cooler to you (and I apologize in advance because this will come off sort of aggressive, I'm not attempting to insult you) but the Japanese language books are not written for you.

Given that you lived here there's a chance you already know this, but a lot of Japanese people (especially the younger generation) think that foreign words are high class and cool. To the point that in business and colloquial speech there are ever increasing examples of Japanese people choosing to adopt foreign words over already existing Japanese words in regular speech. Some examples:

マイブーム[maibuumu], based off the English words "my boom", which is a noun meaning "something you recently became interested in/addicted to" (the closest Japanese word being はまる[hamaru] which is a verb meaning "to be addicted to/crazy about", specifically in reference to an interest)
インボイス[inboisu], literally the English word "invoice".　(The native Japanese word being 請求書[seikyuusho])
アラサー[arasaa], adapted from the English "around thirty" which is only really used by/in reference to women, and means exactly what it says on the tin. (There's no exact Japanese single word equivalent that I know of, though you could say 20代/30代[~dai] which means "in your 20's/30's" respectively. I think the popularity of アラサー, and also アラフォー[arafō], is the vagueness of exactly which side of the age range you are on...)

It's also really common for people to write their names in Romanji on social media, even if they can't speak English or some other Latin alphabet language, because it makes it easier for non-Japanese speakers to read or makes their profile look more trendy. (The same way that foreigners interested in Japanese will write their name in Katakana online to flex their knowledge of the Japanese syllabary. English fluency is still pretty bad in Japan on the whole so it's seen as an indicator of being well educated or worldly.)

Also the assignment of Jinmeiyo kanji for names is a pretty strict process by the Ministry of Justice, both to prevent kanji names from becoming completely unreadable to other Japanese people and also to prevent parents from giving children names with negative connotations. (like 悪魔[akuma] = devil. That's a real example by the way.)
I even have a second hand story of a coworker (an Australian married to a Japanese woman) of when they went to register the name of their first child, and his wife apparently broke down crying under stress after arguing with the MoJ employee for literal hours about a kanji she wanted to use in the name but wasn't allowed to. (They were trying to give their child an Australian name which can syllabically be written in Japanese but is not a normal Japanese name.)

Audustum wrote:
You are right they'd have to adjust the names slightly, but who cares? So he's 'Kor' in Japan, not a big deal in my opinion.

I mean, it's actually a really big deal when you think about it in the context of Warhammer being a global community. Japanese people are already largely used to reading foreign loanwords and proper nouns written in katakana so it's probably less difficult than having to translate all of the made up latin words and proper nouns that GW uses. And I can not tell you how much easier it makes talking about Warhammer when I don't have to try and guess if something was translated literally, figuratively, or written in ateji and can instead just say something like シスターズ[sisutaasu = sisters].

Not sure if that was actually GW's intention rather than just laziness, especially given complaints I've seen on Dakka about wacky literal translations in European language versions, but it's actually quite helpful when you know nearly everything has the same name as in the English version.

Audustum wrote:
So general rule is that foreign words/names/places are in Katakana, which is probably why GW used Kana for Nurgle (my view would be that since he's fake from a fake place they should write it as it naturally occurs in Japan thus use kanji).

What do you mean "as it naturally occurs in Japan"? Nurgle isn't a naturally occurring thing in Japan, being part of an imported English language fiction, so it follows the Japanese convention of giving it a katakana name.

As Yakushiro said, ateji are not really assigned nowadays and many of the existing ones have become largely superseded by the use of katakana because it makes it both easier to read and write, requiring (usually) less written strokes and less memorization of kanji.

Also just a note to you specifically, my wordy explanations and use of Romanji is for the benefit of any non-Japanese speakers reading this thread who might be interested. I don't mean it in any way as a slight against your Japanese ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Thanks! Cool to know. Out of curiosity, is it not viable to go to wikipedia with the language set to Japanese for this sort of thing? Does the website only ever use one form of writing or the other or something? Thanks for entertaining my idle curiosity.

So interesting point on that which I can answer having used both Japanese and English Wikipedia pages simultaneously. It can be very unreliable in any language outside English.

Basically, every page on Wikipedia is maintained by users, this also is true for every foreign language page. So while Japanese does have a seemingly respectable number of people adding and maintaining pages, the content can vary drastically between the English page and the Japanese page.

Certain pages can have entirely different content based on the cultural differences between the English speaking countries and Japan.

The English page on sushi for example, has an entire section breaking down each of the various types of American sushi.

While on the Japanese page American sushi is only referenced in a much larger and more broad section on "world sushi", but the Japanese page goes into much greater detail on things like the cultural relevance of sushi and even has a list of media focused around sushi (such as dramas, manga, and songs).

And, just for fun, as a third point of comparison the Greek page on sushi has only two sections "History" and "Types" of which there are apparently only 3...