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Made in us
Been Around the Block





I got into a bit of an argument last night over a rule, but I deferred to my opponent because it was a friendly game; however, I want to know the truth for future reference.

The scenario was that my opponent charged a unit through dense terrain with a hive tyrant, wiped out a unit, then pilled into another unit behind the dense terrain. Less than an inch of the back of the model was touching the terrain base.

The dense terrain was in my deployment zone, so my entire army could see the hive tyrant and could draw line of sight to it without touching the dense terrain after he piled out of the terrain and into my new unit.

His argument was that because a portion of his model was within the terrain, it was -1 to hit. My argument was that because I could draw line of sight to the model without passing over the terrain, it wasn't -1 to hit.

Question: Does the hive tryant get -1 to hit or not?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 18:07:31


 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Dense cover applies as long as you can only draw lines through or over so it would get a -1 to hit.

edit: may have misread the question. However you must be able to draw lines to every part of the target model's base. That means if the base is in the dense cover, it applies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 18:09:05


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Rihgu wrote:
Dense cover applies as long as you can only draw lines through or over so it would get a -1 to hit.

edit: may have misread the question. However you must be able to draw lines to every part of the target model's base. That means if the base is in the dense cover, it applies.


It's an odd scenario to explain, but it's basically this:

https://d1w82usnq70pt2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Diagram-Turret-over-Dense-750x448.png
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




cjmate8 wrote:
I got into a bit of an argument last night over a rule, but I deferred to my opponent because it was a friendly game; however, I want to know the truth for future reference.

The scenario was that my opponent charged a unit through dense terrain with a hive tyrant, wiped out a unit, then pilled into another unit behind the dense terrain. Less than an inch of the back of the model was touching the terrain base.

The dense terrain was in my deployment zone, so my entire army could see the hive tyrant and could draw line of sight to it without touching the dense terrain after he piled out of the terrain and into my new unit.

His argument was that because a portion of his model was within the terrain, it was -1 to hit. My argument was that because I could draw line of sight to the model without passing over the terrain, it wasn't -1 to hit.

Question: Does the hive tryant get -1 to hit or not?


You have to be able to draw a line to every part of the model's base, as was said, so if any part of the base is on the terrain, you can't draw a line to that part of the base without also drawing a line over the terrain. So you get -1. Remember, this 'draw a line' check is separate from line of sight and doesn't use the line of sight rules. Indirect fire weapons (once that don't need to draw line of sight), also have to draw and check for -1 from Dense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 18:25:07


 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





cjmate8 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Dense cover applies as long as you can only draw lines through or over so it would get a -1 to hit.

edit: may have misread the question. However you must be able to draw lines to every part of the target model's base. That means if the base is in the dense cover, it applies.


It's an odd scenario to explain, but it's basically this:

https://d1w82usnq70pt2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Diagram-Turret-over-Dense-750x448.png


Hmmm, okay... the hull appears to be any part of the vehicle if it doesn't have a base, so that turret would make the vehicle eligible to gain the benefits of Dense Cover.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Rihgu wrote:
cjmate8 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Dense cover applies as long as you can only draw lines through or over so it would get a -1 to hit.

edit: may have misread the question. However you must be able to draw lines to every part of the target model's base. That means if the base is in the dense cover, it applies.


It's an odd scenario to explain, but it's basically this:

https://d1w82usnq70pt2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Diagram-Turret-over-Dense-750x448.png


Hmmm, okay... the hull appears to be any part of the vehicle if it doesn't have a base, so that turret would make the vehicle eligible to gain the benefits of Dense Cover.


Thanks!
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





It depends whether the terrain in question is area terrain or obstacle.Nvm. Misread the question.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 20:54:34


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Wouldn't this interpretation lead to heavy modeling for advantage? I mean if I pull my magnetized turret repulsor up to terrain, and just turn the turret 90 degrees, I'm in cover? That doesn't seem fair. But I agree that is what the rules say.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wouldn't this interpretation lead to heavy modeling for advantage? I mean if I pull my magnetized turret repulsor up to terrain, and just turn the turret 90 degrees, I'm in cover? That doesn't seem fair. But I agree that is what the rules say.

From page 206 of the Core Rules:

You can also rotate any movable part of the model (such as turrets and sponsons) when it is moved. The distance a model moves is measured using the part of the model’s base (or hull) that moves furthest along its path (including parts that rotate or pivot).

Therefore you may be costing yourself movement to rotate that turret.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wouldn't this interpretation lead to heavy modeling for advantage? I mean if I pull my magnetized turret repulsor up to terrain, and just turn the turret 90 degrees, I'm in cover? That doesn't seem fair. But I agree that is what the rules say.


Well. You don't move models outside when you make move. When you move and rotate turret that movement is counted. No part of model may move more than M characteristic from starting position. Even if it's by rotating turret.

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




You know what could fix this in the future? FACING and armor values.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Audustum wrote:
cjmate8 wrote:
I got into a bit of an argument last night over a rule, but I deferred to my opponent because it was a friendly game; however, I want to know the truth for future reference.

The scenario was that my opponent charged a unit through dense terrain with a hive tyrant, wiped out a unit, then pilled into another unit behind the dense terrain. Less than an inch of the back of the model was touching the terrain base.

The dense terrain was in my deployment zone, so my entire army could see the hive tyrant and could draw line of sight to it without touching the dense terrain after he piled out of the terrain and into my new unit.

His argument was that because a portion of his model was within the terrain, it was -1 to hit. My argument was that because I could draw line of sight to the model without passing over the terrain, it wasn't -1 to hit.

Question: Does the hive tryant get -1 to hit or not?


You have to be able to draw a line to every part of the model's base, as was said, so if any part of the base is on the terrain, you can't draw a line to that part of the base without also drawing a line over the terrain. So you get -1. Remember, this 'draw a line' check is separate from line of sight and doesn't use the line of sight rules. Indirect fire weapons (once that don't need to draw line of sight), also have to draw and check for -1 from Dense.


I was talking to a friend my shop last night, and he said cover bonuses were limited to infantry, swarm and beasts.

If that's the case, wouldn't it not get the benefit of dense cover?
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

cjmate8 wrote:


I was talking to a friend my shop last night, and he said cover bonuses were limited to infantry, swarm and beasts.

If that's the case, wouldn't it not get the benefit of dense cover?


Your friend is right about light and heavy cover. Dense cover is different. It applies to everything that isnt an AIRCRAFT, or has 18+ wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/19 11:08:29


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 p5freak wrote:
cjmate8 wrote:


I was talking to a friend my shop last night, and he said cover bonuses were limited to infantry, swarm and beasts.

If that's the case, wouldn't it not get the benefit of dense cover?


Your friend is right about light and heavy cover. Dense cover is different. It applies to everything that isnt an AIRCRAFT, or has 18+ wounds.


This confused me so changing this to clarify, the rules saying it only applies to INFANTRY, BEASTS and SWARMS are NOT in the light cover rule. They're in the rules for obstacles and area terrain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/19 12:50:55


 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

According to that drawing, your models aren't drawing line of site through the forest. No -1 to hit.

now if your models were north or south or west of that tank, especially north and south, that's an interesting arguement, but a turret (specifically the barrels?) is/are not usually the hull of a vehicle... so I'm not sure if the -1 does or does not apply, but if your models were west on the other side of the terrain, the -1 absolutely does apply.

   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 Sazzlefrats wrote:
According to that drawing, your models aren't drawing line of site through the forest. No -1 to hit.

now if your models were north or south or west of that tank, especially north and south, that's an interesting arguement, but a turret (specifically the barrels?) is/are not usually the hull of a vehicle... so I'm not sure if the -1 does or does not apply, but if your models were west on the other side of the terrain, the -1 absolutely does apply.



Dense Cover rules are as such (bold part mine for emphasis)
If this terrain feature is at least 3" in height, then subtract 1 from the hit roll when resolving an attack with a ranged weapon unless you can draw straight lines, 1mm in thickness, to every part of at least one model’s base (or hull) in the target unit from a single point on the attacking model's base (or hull) without any of those lines passing over or through any part of any terrain feature with this trait.


Since the turret, part of the hull, is over dense terrain, that means that no line can be traced to every point on the model's hull without passing over or through the dense cover terrain.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





cjmate8 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
cjmate8 wrote:
I got into a bit of an argument last night over a rule, but I deferred to my opponent because it was a friendly game; however, I want to know the truth for future reference.

The scenario was that my opponent charged a unit through dense terrain with a hive tyrant, wiped out a unit, then pilled into another unit behind the dense terrain. Less than an inch of the back of the model was touching the terrain base.

The dense terrain was in my deployment zone, so my entire army could see the hive tyrant and could draw line of sight to it without touching the dense terrain after he piled out of the terrain and into my new unit.

His argument was that because a portion of his model was within the terrain, it was -1 to hit. My argument was that because I could draw line of sight to the model without passing over the terrain, it wasn't -1 to hit.

Question: Does the hive tryant get -1 to hit or not?


You have to be able to draw a line to every part of the model's base, as was said, so if any part of the base is on the terrain, you can't draw a line to that part of the base without also drawing a line over the terrain. So you get -1. Remember, this 'draw a line' check is separate from line of sight and doesn't use the line of sight rules. Indirect fire weapons (once that don't need to draw line of sight), also have to draw and check for -1 from Dense.


I was talking to a friend my shop last night, and he said cover bonuses were limited to infantry, swarm and beasts.

If that's the case, wouldn't it not get the benefit of dense cover?
To be technical, [benefit of cover] provides the capacity to receive appropriate cover bonuses. Specific terrain pieces limit who can receive the [benefit of cover]. Dense cover does not require you to be receiving [benefit of cover] in order for you to claim the said bonus.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Sazzlefrats wrote:
According to that drawing, your models aren't drawing line of site through the forest. No -1 to hit.

now if your models were north or south or west of that tank, especially north and south, that's an interesting arguement, but a turret (specifically the barrels?) is/are not usually the hull of a vehicle... so I'm not sure if the -1 does or does not apply, but if your models were west on the other side of the terrain, the -1 absolutely does apply.



Well, the picture was an example. The actual scenario was a hive tyrant's base.

The scenario was more like this, which I found later:

https://d1w82usnq70pt2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Diagram-Dense-Cover-Fig3-1.1-750x469.png
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





That Ruleshammer diagram is incorrect, unless there's an FAQ or something I'm not aware of.

Which is unusual, because I respect Ruleshammer and never before have seen them incorrect.

Unless they're using the Devilfish's base (which is not shown in the diagram). which may be a valid interpretation? But that's ambiguous, I think.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/19 18:30:35


 
   
Made in nl
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries





OBSCURING AND DENSE COVER
Obscuring and Dense Cover are two terrain traits introduced with ninth edition that interact with visibility. These rules do not overwrite the normal rules for determining visibility, though – they are in addition to them. Specifically, even though the Obscuring rules state that Aircraft and models with a Wounds characteristic of 18+ can be seen through Obscuring terrain, they are still only visible (and hence eligible) targets if the firing model can physically see them (so if the terrain in question is solid and opaque, they are still not eligible targets). Also, in the same way that Obscuring terrain ‘ blocks’ visibility when it is in between the firing model and its intended target, Dense Cover terrain imposes a hit penalty whenever it is between the firing model and its intended target (with the noted exceptions). It is not required for a unit to be fulfilling the criteria of ‘gaining the benefits of cover’, as described for Obstacles and Area Terrain, for this penalty to hit rolls to apply (but also note that any rule that ignores the benefits of cover, or that ignores the benefits of cover that impose a penalty on hit rolls, would still ignore that penalty).
From the Errata for the Core Book.
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Virginia

Dense Cover terrain imposes a hit penalty whenever it is between the firing model and its intended target (with the noted exceptions).

Suggests the terrain feature must be "between" the attacking and defending models in some way, but currently no method to check that beyond the "draw line to every part of base or hull without passing over or through any part of terrain feature" which doesn't actually check for betweeness in a logical, or dare I say common sense, way.

It is not required for a unit to be fulfilling the criteria of ‘gaining the benefits of cover’, as described for Obstacles and Area Terrain, for this penalty to hit rolls to apply

Confirms vehicles and monsters are exempt from the "only Infantry, Beast, and Swarms gain benefit of cover from Area Terrain" when dealing with dense cover.

I too think Goonhammer is wrong, and it's actually inconsistent with what they say in the Hot Take of that FAQ, which points out this situation exactly and lists it as a currently unresolved question.
https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-hot-take-core-book-faq-round-2/


The oddity comes when we hit T4 and B3. Here there’s no terrain “between” the firing model and the target, and it definitely doesn’t “feel” right for the tank right in front of the Dark Angel with its nose out to be obscured. However, if we refer back to the original wording of Dense, the requirement for a target not to get the benefit is for you to be able to draw a line to all parts of its base/hull without going through the terrain.

Obviously there are lines to the back of the tank here that do cross it, generating the counter-intuitive possibility that T4 does benefit. Here half the vehicle is in, so you could maybe argue it makes sense, but it would still be true if the tiniest corner was inside, which starts to look more ridiculous.

That basically gives us our two outstanding questions here:

What comprises “between” a firing model and a target partially within Dense area terrain? In the diagram above, are T4 and B3 covered by it?
If the answer is that they aren’t, can INFANTRY, SWARMs and BEASTs in their position claim it as a normal benefit of cover?


For what it's worth, the way we play vehicles and monsters (which has no basis in the actual rule book) is to use a laser line (or eyeball if it's obvious) and sweep across the surface of the target model from the position of the attacking model. Essentially, this creates a 2D projected area of the target. If the majority (>50%) of these "lines" first pass over the dense cover terrain, then it's in dense cover. Otherwise no. It could lead to subjectivity if you're in the 49-51% ballpark, but usually it's pretty obvious.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

So is the ruleshammer diagram right or wrong for necron unit b?

I think its still wrong, but....
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

The diagram is wrong about necron unit b.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

If folk separate Area Terrain eligibility and terrain type eligibility rather than automatically conflating them as in previous eds it helps a LOT.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 Sazzlefrats wrote:
So is the ruleshammer diagram right or wrong for necron unit b?

I think its still wrong, but....


It's hard to tell without being able to see the base. I think it is wrong in what it shows, since Dense Cover applies when you can draw lines to the model's base (or hull), and a Devilfish has a base. The Hover rule of the Devilfish also allows one to measure to/from the base or hull, whichever is closer unlike say a Drukhari Raider which says specifically to always use the hull. But then again, both rules refer only to measuring distances, not drawing lines... so it's entirely possible that nothing overrides the fact that Dense Cover draws a line to the base (unless the model doesn't have one, in which case it draws to the hull)

So if the Devilfish's base is entirely off of the area terrain, Necron unit b could probably shoot without the -1 to hit penalty?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Even if it is off, the hull isnt, and you have to satisfy both the hull AND the base being "clear" of the terrain
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

The devilfish says to measure to the base or hull, whichever is closer.

Hover Tank
Instead of measuring distances to and from this model’s base, measure to and from this model’s hull or base (whichever is closer).


If the base is closer to the necron unit B, they wouldnt get the -1 to hit from dense cover, assuming the base is not touching the woods. If the hull is closer, they would get -1 to hit, because the hull is above the woods.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





But is drawing a line from a single point on the attacking model's base to every point on the target's base (or hull) measuring? Do we follow the measuring rules for this? Or do we use the base, because the model has a base?

I have emailed the 40k FAQ asking for clarification whether drawing a line follows the same rules as measuring distances, since drawing a line is poorly defined in the ruleset.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

The rule says its base (or hull). If the model has a base, you draw lines to the base. If the model doesnt have a base you use the hull instead.

Dense Cover
If this terrain feature is at least 3" in height, then subtract 1 from the hit roll when resolving an attack with a ranged weapon unless you can draw straight lines, 1mm in thickness, to every part of at least one model’s base (or hull) in the target unit from a single point on the attacking model's base (or hull) without any of those lines passing over or through any part of any terrain feature with this trait.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Even if it has a base, you also have to consider the hull, as you have no order of precedence to say you can use one and not the other as you posit above
   
 
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