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Name a character (from the following factions) that can defeat Jain Zar (WH40K) in a single combat  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in tw
Been Around the Block





((Fluff wise))
Oh, and obviously Drazhar doesn't count (be it the DE or Phoenix lords), he's already beaten her.
The factions:
  • Custodes

  • Astartes

  • Bonus: If you had to guess, how many thunder warriors would be required to take down Jain Zar?


  • Phoenix Lords

  • Harlequins

  • Dark Eldar


  • Chaos Space Marines


  • Orks


  • Tyranids


  • Necrons
  • This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/23 06:54:24


     
       
    Made in us
    Devastating Dark Reaper






    Custodes
    Anyone with a name, Jain Zar can respawn and is hyped as a scary combatant, so GW will use her to show off how awesome their brand new Custodes hero is.

    Astartes
    Anyone with a name, Jain Zar can respawn and is hyped as a scary combatant, so GW will use her to show off how awesome their brand new Astartes hero is.

    Bonus: If you had to guess, how many thunder warriors would be required to take down Jain Zar?
    One with a name, Jain Zar can respawn and is hyped as a scary combatant, so GW will use her to show off how awesome brand new thunder warrior survivor hero is.

    Phoenix Lords
    Similar to Drazhar fight, they would have to take turns offing each other and respawning. Fuegan is fated to be the last to fall so they will have to win before they can die and get better.

    Harlequins
    Any new hero, Jain Zar can respawn and is hyped as a scary combatant, so GW will use her to show off how awesome their brand new generic Harlequin hero is. (or imperial only named Harlequin hero)

    Dark Eldar
    Anyone with a name, Jain Zar can respawn and is hyped as a scary combatant, so GW will use her to show off how awesome their brand new Dark Eldar hero is and then have Jain Zar kill them since the Dark Eldar hero can probably respawn too.

    Chaos Space Marines
    Anyone with a name, Jain Zar can respawn and is hyped as a scary combatant, so GW will use her to show off how awesome their brand new Chaos Space Marines hero is.

    Orks
    Anyone with a name, Jain Zar can respawn and is hyped as a scary combatant, so GW will use her to show off how awesome their brand new Crippled grot with a slingshot hero is.

    Tyranids
    Anybug if it would seem to crate dramatic tension before a new eldar hero comes in to save the story, Jain Zar can respawn and is hyped as a scary combatant, so GW will use her to show off how awesome their brand new eldar hero is since nids aren't allowed to have new models.

    Necrons
    Anyone with a name, Jain Zar can respawn and is hyped as a scary combatant, so GW will use her to show off how awesome their brand new Necron hero is.

    See Avatar of Khaine (to the point of meme), bloodthirster, swarmlord, Drazhar, and every other respawning hero.

     
       
    Made in us
    Fixture of Dakka





    Well, Talos, the Night Lord apothecary, DID defeat Jain Zar in single combat.

    But Dan Abnett has no concept or familiarity with actual 40k lore, so take that as you will. He's the worst thing that ever happened to the lore.

    "'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

    This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


    Freelance Ontologist

    When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
       
    Made in us
    Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




    Inside Yvraine

    Talos did not defeat her in single combat.

    She disarmed and stabbed him, and while bleeding to death he detonated a bomb attached to his armor that blew them both up.

    And the Night Lords trilogy was written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, not Dan Abnett. If you want to see a truly heinous worfing of a phoenix lord, see Karandras getting one-shot by a random unnamed Dreadnought in the Path of the Eldar series.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/07 21:43:10


     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    As a ressurectable craftworld character, Jain-Zar kind of has punching-bag-for-humans syndrome. Doesn't Gaunt or one of his ghosts chase her away in one novel? I say this as a phoenix lord fan boy: PLs are skilled enough and have thick enough plot armor to usually avoid dying at the hands of random mooks, but their plot armor pulls a 180 in the third act and basically marks them for death. PLs are very, very powerful but also very, very killable. That said:

    Custodes: Any custodes, really. Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu applies. In a room full of custodes, she'll almost certainly take out at least half of them. If a single custodes runs into her after she's taken out a bunch of guardsmen, 50/50 odds the custodes wins.

    Astartes: See: custodes. A marine you've never heard of before has about 50/50 odds because the plot wants to show off how cool he is. If he's someone with a model you can buy 90% chance he wins, 9% chance they're forced to call it a draw.

    Thunder Warriors: During their prime, no number of Thunder Warriors would be able to subdue Jain because the author knows the T. warriors aren't likely to show up in future novels. A lone thunder warrior that shows up in 40k or some other series planned to continue for multiple books would have a nearly 100% chance of beating her so that the reader can see how cool he is.

    Phoenix Lords: Honestly, they all have pretty good chances if we allow their preferred fighting style to count as "single combat." Karandras would probably lose a fair fight, but he would have decent odds of ganking her from the shadows. Baharroth's gear isn't great for dealing with her skill set, but they both have nice disruption potential. He'd certainly have trouble losing against her due to his wings and range advantage. Maugan is good in melee, but ranged combat is his whole thing. If Jain isn't forced into a shooting gallery, she probably wins once she closes the gap. Even if she was forced to charge him down a long hallway, I wouldn't write her off. Fuegan could basically one-shot her, and he's tough enough to potentially get more than one shot, but I'd still give Jain the advantage due to her melee weapon specialization. Irrilyth is pretty much in the same boat as Karandras and Maugan; he can reasonably kill her if he gets a chance to ambush and shoot her. His gear is better suited for it than Baharroth's, but I still don't hate Jain's odds. Asurman might have the best odds given his more defensive gear and fighting style and the fact that his super dire sword (sucks your soul out and penetrates armor well) is relatively well-suited to dealing with her.

    Harlequins: Any named harlequin, really. Veilwalker has her fingers in too many metaplot pies to be permakilled, so she'd probably win. The Crimson Swan's author seems to like him, so he could conceivably win; "is a great harlequin" is probably sufficient credentials for him to beat her. Motley from the Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy probably has a fair chance. Basically, named harlies are few and far between and don't generally come back to life meaning they have thicker plot armor than Jain.

    Dark Eldar: Lelith, certainly. Wouldn't be surprised if she actually has slain Jain at some point. Kheradruakh could probably gank her the same way Karandras could. Beyond that, drukhari characters (excepting Drazhar whom you've said doesn't count) aren't generally known for being the bested fighty boyz in the galaxy the way marines, etc. are. Urien could kill her, sure, but he's more of a thinker/artist than a fighter. Malys could deal with Jain permanently if she really wanted to, but she probably wouldn't do it through stabbery. Frankly, drukhari are simply too interesting to have the raw power and plot armor needed to kill Jain.

    Chaos Marines: Lucius I guess. Ahriman could probably just brain 'splode her once he'd worked around the ambiguous "fate cutting" plot armor that she canonically has. Honestly, chaos characters have pretty much the same situation as imperial ones here: if the author wants them look cool, they'll beat her without too much difficulty. The only exception maybe being full on daemonic slaaneshi units that might not be able to resist devouring her souls (plural) and thus couldn't be allowed to actually beat her unless someone was nearby to save her armor.

    Orks: Again, any of them, really. If the author wants to make a given ork look cool, respect for the supposed badassery of an eldar character that can be brought back to life probably won't stop them, and Jain's lore doesn't give me a reason to think she's functionally invulnerable to power klaws. I mean, she probably wouldn't die to the first power klaw she came across, but my faith in her plot armor wanes after a chapter or two of ongoing combat and drama escalation.

    Tyranids: See: orks, but less so. Most 'nids don't have names/much personality meaning that they take a penalty to their plot armor stat. 'Nids are likely to act as punching bags for pretty much anyone.

    Necrons: See: orks. Although it would be cool to see how an author explains a named chronomancer like Orakin not insta-gibbing her in a one-on-one fight. Unless you give her the supernatural ability to counter his time stop or just hand waive away damage by saying her armor is "just that good," it seems like pausing the clock and blasting her in the face should be a bit of an auto-win.

    tldr; Pretty much anyone can conceivably beat her on her off-days. I'd give a gretchin even odds against her if the author has given him a name and spent at least one chapter from his point of view. Eldar characters exist to get beaten up by the author's faves.
       
    Made in us
    Fixture of Dakka





     BlaxicanX wrote:
    Talos did not defeat her in single combat.

    She disarmed and stabbed him, and while bleeding to death he detonated a bomb attached to his armor that blew them both up.

    And the Night Lords trilogy was written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, not Dan Abnett. If you want to see a truly heinous worfing of a phoenix lord, see Karandras getting one-shot by a random unnamed Dreadnought in the Path of the Eldar series.

    Ah you’re right. My brain was just clouded with rage at the physical body inside what he called Jain Zara armor. Both authors don’t care even a little bit about 40k lore

    As for the Karandras thing, I had no issues with that. For one, a dread has routinely been able to kill Karandras for 7 editions now. For two, Karandras didn’t really lose a fight, he intentionally intercepted a death blow

    "'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

    This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


    Freelance Ontologist

    When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
       
    Made in fr
    Longtime Dakkanaut






    Why does it have to be a named character? From what i saw looking up her stats and points cost on a certain site, a necron skorpekh lord is withi5 points of her cost and would have a fairly decent chance with his higher T and 4++ save plus regenerating a wound if the battle lasts more than 1 turn.

    "But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
       
    Made in tw
    Been Around the Block





     Matt Swain wrote:
    Why does it have to be a named character? From what i saw looking up her stats and points cost on a certain site, a necron skorpekh lord is withi5 points of her cost and would have a fairly decent chance with his higher T and 4++ save plus regenerating a wound if the battle lasts more than 1 turn.

    I mean, more than a few times an unnamed character was proven to be absolutely pathetic in the lore, and unfortunately I'm gradually accepting that.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 15:30:13


     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Cognitive wrote:
     Matt Swain wrote:
    Why does it have to be a named character? From what i saw looking up her stats and points cost on a certain site, a necron skorpekh lord is withi5 points of her cost and would have a fairly decent chance with his higher T and 4++ save plus regenerating a wound if the battle lasts more than 1 turn.

    I mean, more than a few times an unnamed character was proven to be absolutely pathetic in the lore, and unfortunately I'm gradually accepting that.

    Unnamed characters just don't have much plot armor. Especially not compared to named characters. Like, if you're reading a comic and it appears that Batman just got shot to death by a random, nameless henchman lieutenant, how likely are you to believe that Batman is actually dead?

    DarknessEternal wrote:
    As for the Karandras thing, I had no issues with that. For one, a dread has routinely been able to kill Karandras for 7 editions now. For two, Karandras didn’t really lose a fight, he intentionally intercepted a death blow

    From what I remember of that scene, it really just felt like the author was in a hurry to get the main character into a new set of armour. That's the bit that stuck out at me the most. The death itself was underwhelming to the point of near comedy though; especially now that we have the Asurmen and Jain Zar novels for comparison. Like, the Jain novel has scenes of her doing high-speed backflips and trick throws with the Silent Death to evade harm in the storm of battle. And then in comparison, Karandras runs forward, fall down, go boom. After contributing nothing to the fight that I can summon to memory a few years after reading it.

    But again, it mostly felt like the author was nearing his contracted word count and needed to digivolve his main character in a hurry.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 03:35:05


     
       
    Made in ca
    Legendary Master of the Chapter





    Wyldhunt wrote:
    Cognitive wrote:
     Matt Swain wrote:
    Why does it have to be a named character? From what i saw looking up her stats and points cost on a certain site, a necron skorpekh lord is withi5 points of her cost and would have a fairly decent chance with his higher T and 4++ save plus regenerating a wound if the battle lasts more than 1 turn.

    I mean, more than a few times an unnamed character was proven to be absolutely pathetic in the lore, and unfortunately I'm gradually accepting that.

    Unnamed characters just don't have much plot armor. Especially not compared to named characters. Like, if you're reading a comic and it appears that Batman just got shot to death by a random, nameless henchman lieutenant, how likely are you to believe that Batman is actually dead?



    about as much as I believe it if Batman is seemingly killed by Superman, The electrocutoner, The Joker, Darkseid, Bane, or any of the other super villians whom have in fact killed Batman in the comics

    Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    BrianDavion wrote:
    Wyldhunt wrote:
    Cognitive wrote:
     Matt Swain wrote:
    Why does it have to be a named character? From what i saw looking up her stats and points cost on a certain site, a necron skorpekh lord is withi5 points of her cost and would have a fairly decent chance with his higher T and 4++ save plus regenerating a wound if the battle lasts more than 1 turn.

    I mean, more than a few times an unnamed character was proven to be absolutely pathetic in the lore, and unfortunately I'm gradually accepting that.

    Unnamed characters just don't have much plot armor. Especially not compared to named characters. Like, if you're reading a comic and it appears that Batman just got shot to death by a random, nameless henchman lieutenant, how likely are you to believe that Batman is actually dead?



    about as much as I believe it if Batman is seemingly killed by Superman, The electrocutoner, The Joker, Darkseid, Bane, or any of the other super villians whom have in fact killed Batman in the comics

    Alright, but among comic characters that appear to have been perma-killed, they generally get finished off by a named supervillain rather than random henchman #12, is my point. Like, if they wanted to kill off a Green Lantern or Tony Stark or whomever, the wikipedia article is probably going to say they were finished off by someone with their own wikipedia page; not by someone you've never heard of before or since. Unless the authors are trying to drive home the idea that even random mooks are dangerous or something.
       
    Made in fr
    Longtime Dakkanaut






    Ok, for a little real history here, one of the most famous 'named characters" in military history was killed by essentially a total nobody footslogging soldier.

    The red Baron, or Manfred Von Richtoffen to give him the respect of using his name, was thought to have been killed by a fellow "knight of the air" for a long time but the theory never fit the facts of the entry point and path the bullet that killed Richtoffen took.

    Decades after his death, the truth was finally worked out. The red baron was likely killed by a rifle shot from a common foot soldier who doesn't even have a picture of him in recorded history.

    The possibility it was a fellow "knight of the air" has been debunked.

    "But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




     Matt Swain wrote:
    Ok, for a little real history here, one of the most famous 'named characters" in military history was killed by essentially a total nobody footslogging soldier.

    The red Baron, or Manfred Von Richtoffen to give him the respect of using his name, was thought to have been killed by a fellow "knight of the air" for a long time but the theory never fit the facts of the entry point and path the bullet that killed Richtoffen took.

    Decades after his death, the truth was finally worked out. The red baron was likely killed by a rifle shot from a common foot soldier who doesn't even have a picture of him in recorded history.

    The possibility it was a fellow "knight of the air" has been debunked.

    Well yes, but reality doesn't always politely follow the rules of narrative convention. "Plot armor" isn't a thing real people have (though we might retroactively ascribe it to some of them sarcastically).

    Named characters have plot armor, and plot armor generally keeps named characters from dying outside of sufficiently dramatic/entertaining circumstances unless the author's intentionally turn that plot armor off as a choice. That's why someone likeYriel probably won't get permakilled by a collapsing building or shot to death by a guardsman; it wouldn't be narratively satisfying (unless the other sets it up to be) and would thus be a waste of the dramatic potential they've built up for Yriel.

    Now, Jain is kind of a bad example here because her ressurectability means she has less plot armor than most, but it still sort of holds true in a situation where she might be perma-killed or inconvenienced for a prolonged period of time. So a random guardsman or marine captain might be able to kill her on a random field of battle, but a Slaaneshi daemon intent on slurping up her armor's spirit stones has pretty dismal odds of beating her because the author would have to contrive a reason for the daemon to not permanently kill her. Similarly, if being killed has a high chance of causing her armor to fall into a pit of lava or be sucked into the warp, she'll probably survive whatever fight she's in.

    EDIT: Also, lots of people can beat Jain when they're having a "good day," but that doesn't mean they should be able to kill her consistently. Jain Zar has probably died to a random guardsman's lasgun fire a few times over the millenia, but that doesn't mean I'd say a random guardsman should consistently defeat her in single combat. A gretchin might defeat Jain one in a million times if enough things go wrong for her or if the laws of slapstick bend to the grot's favor.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 01:02:16


     
       
     
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