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The only real evidence I see is that Gragnos looks a lot like a Bull Centaur, anf the Hobgoblin connection with the new AoS launch box. But still, both of those are pretty compelling. At least they are to me...

But let's have some good ol' speculation to fuel our hope on the road to disappointment!

They are in the fluff as Chaos, both being referenced as such and when Chaos duardin characters have shown up. The way they were talking about them in the stream reinforced the notion for me that they are remaining Chaos.

there's a chaos dwarf in Warcry, and they're...well,chaos.

It would be perfectly possible for GW to have a faction in one Grand Alliance which impacts politically with another faction in a different Grant Alliance.


Heck we already have that. Khadorans are well noted in the lore to trade with basically any one if the price is right. They will even trade with Chaos forces if the price and situation are right, even though at the top end of their faction, they are against Chaos.


Of course Chaos itself is very different in the Mortal Realms and its important to remember what whlist it has wastelands of corruption like the Eight Points, it also holds most of the land mass in many realms. Furthermore the level of Chaos varies a lot, from totally mutated and corrupted to tribes or cities where its prevalent, but not as totally corrupted; perhaps even under the guise of a different god. Several of the Warcry Warbands represent such factions who could easily trade with Khadorans and the like.

Heck go a step further and every faction can call upon the services of a Gargant. Despite them being in Destruction, they have freely allied options as a race for each of the other Grand Alliance.s


So the idea that Chaos Dwarves could return and might influence other factions outside of the GA Destruction its perfectly fine.

No, as they are Chaos.

SO were the Fimir... and they ended up destruction, at least in as far as they "exist" in AoS

Fimir had half a page of lore in the Old World and a few models and were not around much at all.

Chaos Dwarves were an established army that had core GW models and an army at one time and established lore and then a Forgeworld Army.

They've a lot more history to them and a lot more fans.


Fimir had a few forgeworld models in recent years, but never a full army and never a big fanbase nor a diverse or deep lore.


It's much easier to just shift Fimir around however you want because there isn't much baggage that comes with them.

I mean, isn't it literally in the name "Chaos Dwarves/Duardin". If anything I was surprised the big new Destruction God-tier unit was a really big centaur, something that kinda sits in the whole Beasts of Chaos vibe.

The defining characteristics of Destruction imo is that they are so savage and war hungry that they can't put aside difference with other factions for any length of time even against the very existential threat of Chaos. This is exemplified by Gorkamorka's rejection of Sigmar and the pantheon.

(Aside: small individual bands of these races can do this sometimes for short periods, working as mercenaries and such. This is about trends for the faction as a whole).

For me, for this reason, it doesn't make sense to have a faction that is a thematic successor to Chaos Dwarves in Destruction. Chaos Dwarves are organised and calculating, and fantastic producers of complex machinery for their war machines. You have to keep those things or its just a brand new faction. That doesn't gel with a race that refuses to stand against Chaos when it comes to the crunch. They would clearly have the intelligence and self preservation instincts that would lead them resist Chaos along with the Order factions.

If we wanted Destruction Dwarfs, Fyreslayers would have been a better fit. Make them even more self destructive to the point where they literally don't care if Chaos wins. But recent fluff especially seems to be making Fyreslayers more reasonable.

I have a hard time aligning dwarfs with the philosefy of chaos. Unless you do some very spesific dwarfs. Berserker dwarfs? Dwarfs worshipping oblivion?

Chaos dwarfs traditionally are very into blacksmith and building things. Destruction is not about building things, except things like clans, teretory etc.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
The only real evidence I see is that Gragnos looks a lot like a Bull Centaur, anf the Hobgoblin connection with the new AoS launch box. But still, both of those are pretty compelling. At least they are to me...

But let's have some good ol' speculation to fuel our hope on the road to disappointment!

Kragnos has a equine, horse-like lower body. Bull Centaurs have a bovine, cow-like lower body. If anything that would place them closer to Avalenor, the Stoneheart King than Kragnos.

The Legion of Azgorh warscrolls have the CHAOS keyword and I can't really see GW changing that, after all they have 'Chaos' in their name don't they?

I mean, maybe? I'm not really saying GW will do it, just presenting a few things that made me think about the idea of it.

That said, I think alot of you guys are taking old world lore as more holy then it actually is in AoS. There's already been a pretty considerable shake up both lore and model range wise since AoS's inception and I don't really see what stops GW from just rewriting the script to cross out chaos and put some destruction if they wanted to.

Again, not saying they will, but a lot of these arguments aren't really convincing, either.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I mean, maybe? I'm not really saying GW will do it, just presenting a few things that made me think about the idea of it.

That said, I think alot of you guys are taking old world lore as more holy then it actually is in AoS. There's already been a pretty considerable shake up both lore and model range wise since AoS's inception and I don't really see what stops GW from just rewriting the script to cross out chaos and put some destruction if they wanted to.

Again, not saying they will, but a lot of these arguments aren't really convincing, either.

The Chaos Dwarves (i.e., the aforementioned Legion of Azgorh) are already in Age of Sigmar as CHAOS. It is not 'old world lore'.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I don't really see what stops GW from just rewriting the script to cross out chaos and put some destruction if they wanted to.

I mean they could of course, but my long post above I think details pretty thoroughly why I think it wouldn't make any sense. Not based on old world lore, but based on the defining character of Chaos Dwarfs if you set Chaos aside.

You could have Destruction Dwarfs for sure, but they shouldn't be anything like Chaos Dwarfs we've seen previously.

Also, as has been repeatedly mentioned, Chaos Dwarfs have existed in Age of Sigmar already as a Forgeworld faction. Canonically they exist.

They could, but they aren't, so it's moot.

Well I would find it pretty hard to imagine dwarves being destructions aligned. Unless they seek to destroy all of civilization by having the means to do so.

And by how well the armor was made on hobgoblins and wielding grenades (of all things) it seems less likely they have given up on proper smithing.

But Chaos Dwarfs could be bit more complicated compared to other factions.

Not a fan of the grand alliances for this reason. If its mutually beneficial for both races why can't GW reshape the lore to make it fit.

It isn't like factions in grand alliances never ally work work with others from different ones. Heck there are even rules for that in-game; Order, Death, and Destruction all have stuff that can be taken by any army.

I would love to see destruction based beastman army, I'm a little upset that the new Kragnos isnt the herald of a super kurnothi wild hunt army with centaurs, rampaging non chaos beasts and so on :(

Some sort of dwarves who have been under Nagash thumb for a long time gets liberation. And now they work on something big to destroy everything, including the afterlife. It is the only way to bee free from Nagash in eternety. They worship the consept of anihilaion and oblivion.

To meet their end they align with destruction that they supply with much wanted blacksmithing. They need allies, a mutual agreement. Would be cool.

From page 40 of the Age of Sigmar Core Rules (emphasis added):

Where once wheat and maize had swayed in the summer breeze, the land was flattened, scorched and bled dry. Grand engines of destruction and skull-lined fortifications were raised upon the sites of shattered temples by corrupted, metal-masked duardin and the human work-gangs that toiled beneath their whips. As the decades slid past, the sovereign lands of the Blood God were wrought anew, a hundred empires of pain and misery founded on the bones of the pure.

So we already have hints of the Chaos Dwarfs building fortifications and war engines for Chaos. GW is not going to abandon these seeds of lore they've buried throughout the background just to change Chaos Dwarfs to Destruction.

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I would love to see destruction based beastman army, I'm a little upset that the new Kragnos isnt the herald of a super kurnothi wild hunt army with centaurs, rampaging non chaos beasts and so on :(

As a BoC player, i hate this idea. Also other armies are allowed Centaurs (for those that say, Why isn't Kragnos with Beasmen, beastmen has Centaur giant heroes, blah blah)

Beastmen are the true children of chaos, saying beastmen would be in destruction is equal to saying Sigmar should have a army in Chaos b.c he "throws a fit" and that is giving into chaotic emotions.

Legion of Azgorh is mentioned by named in the Slaves to Darkness battletome, not to mention the number of places Chaos dwarfs show up in Warcry fluff.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Legion of Azgorh is mentioned by named in the Slaves to Darkness battletome, not to mention the number of places Chaos dwarfs show up in Warcry fluff.

Reference for those who don't have that battletome:

Whatever their reasons for stepping upon the Path to Glory, a Champion of Chaos soon becomes addicted to accumulating more and more power. At first, the rewards they receive seem relatively simple; their natural strength will be bolstered, or they may be bequeathed a suit of rune-marked iron forged by the Furnace Kings of Azgorh. Many champions will also begin to revere a particular deity at this point, though even as they channel their chosen god’s powers they will still offer prayer and supplication to appease the others.

Thanks Ghaz!

So when are we getting our Chaos Stormcasts then?

I don't think they will ever do them, nor would I want them to. That would be just... incredibly bland and certainly not make sense with the fluff!

Aren't Stormcast just Order Chaos Warriors? Which would make Chaos Warriors Chaos Stormcast?

Rihgu wrote:
Aren't Stormcast just Order Chaos Warriors? Which would make Chaos Warriors Chaos Stormcast?

Pretty much this, yes. StD are a bit underwhelming at the moment, but thematically they should be a chaotic parallel to Stormcast.