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Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

It seems like everyone thinks that Lorgar is a little bitch and all, but im not fully sure why.

Im not really much of a reader but i do have basic background info on warhammer 40k. From what i know, i kinda feel like Lorgar is one of my favorite primarchs.

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

I actually like Lorgar myself. Everyone dismissed and underestimated him and yet it was his efforts that eventually destroyed the Emperor's plans. That is impressive for such an underdog.

But BL writers can't seem to let him have a win. Any interesting personality or impressive feats are undone by the next story. It leaves the reader with the impression he is nothing more than a conniving wimp.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




He's a flip-flopper in a setting and social context that values loyalty. That he's *right* on the material parts and deeply wrong on the moral ones is definitely a sins-of-the-father thing, but also, well, an actual sin.

Lorgar *is* a horrible little prick. It's not his fault, per se, but the emergent properties are his to own because he failed to be the adult in the room (because his father also failed to be the adult in the room.)

He's just tremendous fun because of that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/02 22:39:58


 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






He was very impressionable and was raised on a planet ruled by a Theocracy. He also had intense mood swings, where one minute he was laughing and the next enraged at a perceived insult. He also struggled with his role as a general in the Crusade as he wanted to be a scholar, dedicating his time to learning the mysteries of the universe rather than burning them. It's why he got along so well with Magnus. Lorgar's susceptibility to manipulation meant that when he was humiliated by the Emperor, Kor Phaeron and Erebus were easily able to turn him to Chaos but then Lorgar got really into it and rapidly outpaced them in skill for Warpcraft, manipulation, warfare, and scheming.
The blame for much of the Heresy lies at his feet but it's a combination of the Emperor being a rubbish dad, Kor Phaeron being another rubbish dad but in a different way, Erebus being literally the worst, and most of his brothers not liking him because he wasn't a good general.
Once he fell to Chaos he just kept falling and arguably the only "good" things he did were technically "saving" Angron's life but also turned him into a Daemon Primarch and letting Kharn beat the ever-living out of Erebus, after Erebus did a VERY BAD THING.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/02 22:50:17


 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Depends what you mean by little bitch. In the purely physical sense? Yeah most of his brothers would be able to beat him up and take his lunch money. If you tried to give him a visualization of stats like in Jojo or something he'd probably be average in most departments when compared to the others who have areas they excel. But as a character he's also one of the more interesting primarchs imo.

His up bringing was rough, his heresy treatment was rough, everything he believed in was spat on rather than being gently guided. Let's say nothing of those he kept close to him and their qualities.

It's honestly curious why the GW/BL writers haven't utilized him more. If it wasn't for Abbadon being the main mortal with the blessings of the whole pantheon I could very much see Lorgar taking that place. Except it would lose the whole good humanity vs bad humanity angle with him being a demon primarch and all.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I mean, one of his better decisions was "him before me, he needs it more" but... ah... still not a great choice


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I submit that Lorgar is *dramatically* best Primarch because he gets to fail and learn (badly) time and again and that makes for good drama (if you like Lear, etc.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/02 23:00:19


 
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




I don't think that many people hate lorgar, he's a compelling villain conceptually. Erebus on the other hand....
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Read The First Heretic. Seriously. Lorgar is a whiny bitch who is easily manipulated by anyone who tires. The Emperor, Kor Phaeron, ing Erebus, and the Chaos Gods all are all able to throw him off his game. His beliefs have the solidity of a sand castle. He is a lost child seeking someone to worship.

At least when Magnus screwed up, he was trying to do something good. Lorgar got punished for worshiping the Emperor and not prosecuting the Great Crusade effectively, so went crying to the next possible deity he could find.
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Though it is implied in a few stories that the need to worship and believe may be a fault in their legions geneseed. sooooo, big Es fault. Again.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

Didnt he hold his ground and basically fracture the skull of Robute guilliman?

Wouldnt that make him an equal to him at least? in terms of fighting

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/03 04:50:25


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Tiberias wrote:
I don't think that many people hate lorgar, he's a compelling villain conceptually. Erebus on the other hand....


I used to hate Erebus, but after listening to Child of Chaos, by Chris Wraight, I think he's a great character. I very much recommmend it as a 50 minute diversion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeXIvvX6IJY

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/03 09:47:54


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





He ruined what was supposed to be an age of reneissance and glorious dominant future of human race in the galaxy over his fee-fees about having to have something to worship. Emperor should have just nuked his home planet and come back saying that Whimpy Lorgar had died before he reached him.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






The blame isn't solely on Lorgar though, is it?
The Emperor, despite wholly going into the whole "I'm your space dad" angle with all the Primarchs was a terrible father figure and manipulated his son's against each other with the end goal rumoured to be a civil war between the ones he considered unworthy and his favs. Monarchia was a huge mistake and it was only the Emperor's fault that the razing had to be done in the first place. The Emperor is the height of hubris, nothing can go unseen by his eye and he is all-powerful (but not a god *wink*) yet right under his nose the Word Bearers set the seeds of the Heresy and the Chaos God's turned Primarch after Primarch against him.
Kor Phaeron was also always a manipulative father figure, turning Lorgar into his very own messiah to purge Kor Phaeron's enemies from Colchis and kept Lorgar's natural obedience to authority figures strong enough that Lorgar only really outdid himself during the Heresy itself when Kor Phaeron and Erebus lost control of the colossal egotist with a penchant for oratory and burning books.
Erebus is a snake who should have been atomised at birth.

Read First Heretic, it's amazing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/04 23:45:04


 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
He ruined what was supposed to be an age of reneissance and glorious dominant future of human race in the galaxy over his fee-fees about having to have something to worship. Emperor should have just nuked his home planet and come back saying that Whimpy Lorgar had died before he reached him.

The Emperor looked at horribly disfunctional guys like Angron or Konrad Curze and thought "this is fine." Either the Emp's pride in his own work made him blind to how flawed his sons were, or he just didn't care and incorporated those flaws into his plans (and miscalculted big time).
   
Made in tw
Been Around the Block





At least he's not Curze or Fulgrim, but other than that the dude was straight up irritating.
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Tiennos wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
He ruined what was supposed to be an age of reneissance and glorious dominant future of human race in the galaxy over his fee-fees about having to have something to worship. Emperor should have just nuked his home planet and come back saying that Whimpy Lorgar had died before he reached him.

The Emperor looked at horribly disfunctional guys like Angron or Konrad Curze and thought "this is fine." Either the Emp's pride in his own work made him blind to how flawed his sons were, or he just didn't care and incorporated those flaws into his plans (and miscalculted big time).


This. The Imperium was never going to be anything more than it became because the Emperor was the fundamental flaw in the whole plan.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Deadly Dire Avenger





 Gert wrote:

Read First Heretic, it's amazing.


Yeah, I remember really enjoying that book. I expected to despise Lorgar and the Word Bearers but it did a surprisingly good job of making him relatable. He is still a weak, pathetic figure desperate for something, anything to worship but you kind of have sympathy for him because he is basically a philosopher forced into the role of being a war leader. He didn't ask for his lot in life, the Emperor designed him to be a tool and used him as one. After the way the Emperor utterly humiliated him and scorned all his works and achievements it is totally unsurprising and inevitable that deepest love turned to hate.
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Tiennos wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
He ruined what was supposed to be an age of reneissance and glorious dominant future of human race in the galaxy over his fee-fees about having to have something to worship. Emperor should have just nuked his home planet and come back saying that Whimpy Lorgar had died before he reached him.

The Emperor looked at horribly disfunctional guys like Angron or Konrad Curze and thought "this is fine." Either the Emp's pride in his own work made him blind to how flawed his sons were, or he just didn't care and incorporated those flaws into his plans (and miscalculted big time).


This. The Imperium was never going to be anything more than it became because the Emperor was the fundamental flaw in the whole plan.

Can you explain how the Emperor was a fundamental flaw in the whole plan?
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Of course the current state of the Dark Imperium seems to show Lorgar was right. The ignorant masses of humanity in the 40K era do need a focus of worship.

Even if it was not the Emperor's original plan, there are hints given in a character's in-universe opinion (so admittedly it may be wrong) in Godblight that the worship of humanity in all the thousands of years since the Heresy may have empowered and maybe even changed the Emperor into a god. Certainly it seems that with the opening of the warp rift, Imperial miracles and acts of faith seem to be more frequent and countering some of the overt supernatural acts of the Chaos gods. Lorgar's ultimate view was that humanity needed to believe in something greater, and that a secular philosophy alone would not fill that need. In the 40K universe, and particularly the 40K era, when faith does shape the warp and provide protection, Lorgar is while perhaps not entirely right, he is not entirely wrong either.

What is ironic is if the Emperor had perhaps not fully rejected Lorgar but tried to steer his religious tendencies, it might have shaped the growth of the Imperial religion into something a little less dark and insane. If the Emperor had told Lorgar "Yes I am a god, and there are dark gods/daemons in the warp that will try to tempt you so you must reject them", Lorgar I think would have happily stayed faithful and rejected the blandishments of the Chaos gods. It's the combination of both rejection and previously being lied to that left Lorgar open to being turned by the Chaos gods.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/06 12:00:37


 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Tiennos wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
He ruined what was supposed to be an age of reneissance and glorious dominant future of human race in the galaxy over his fee-fees about having to have something to worship. Emperor should have just nuked his home planet and come back saying that Whimpy Lorgar had died before he reached him.

The Emperor looked at horribly disfunctional guys like Angron or Konrad Curze and thought "this is fine." Either the Emp's pride in his own work made him blind to how flawed his sons were, or he just didn't care and incorporated those flaws into his plans (and miscalculted big time).


This. The Imperium was never going to be anything more than it became because the Emperor was the fundamental flaw in the whole plan.

Can you explain how the Emperor was a fundamental flaw in the whole plan?


He was an authoritarian fascist who engaged in a genocidal war of conquest in the name of human supremacy. His worldview was built on eugenics and xenophobia, who viewed people as nothing more than cogs in the imperial war machine for that goal.

Any government built upon that foundation was only going to end one way.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/06 15:05:02


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Lorgar is the only Primarch to seek the actual truth. He found it, and it was terrible. But instead of shirking away from it, he accepted the awful truth of the 40K universe - God is real, and he hates you.

His mission is to bring that truth to everyone, so everyone knows what they are up against. I think that's a pretty compelling arc for a primarch villain, and probably one of the better ones. The fact that he struggles with this emotionally is also pretty fair I think.

The Emperor was lying to everyone to achieve his goals, whereas Lorgar wants people to know the truth. He's a helluva lot better than some of the other Primarchs who turned to chaos for far less edifying reasons. (though by far the worst chaos primarchs are the ones who never even made a choice - Fulgrim, Horus and all the others who were corrupted by magic rather than making choices that made sense for them as characters. Blech. Get rid of that garbage.)

I think people tend to hate him because he's not portrayed as a Grimdark Badass, he has feelings and that's a big no no. And also most heresy fans love the Emperor and the Loyalist chapters so they dislike the primarch most responsible for bringing their house down.

I love him! Word Bearers are my favourite Chaos Legion, I think they're the absolute best archetype of a Chaos faction. Far more to them than any of the god-aligned legions and of the undivided legions none of the rest come close. I can see preferring the more cynical warlord-raider undivided legions over the fanatical Word Bearers, that's a matter of taste. But I want my chaos to be full of cultists, daemons and mutants, with the Chaos Legionnaires themselves being the iron hard core of the army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/06 13:44:20


   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





What advantage would it bring if Lorgar managed to make everyone aware of Chaos and the truth about Chaos?
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Knowing the truth is always better than living a lie, this is a philosophical and ethical point for me. You can of course disagree, but from my POV telling people the truth is always the right thing to do.

   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Gert wrote:
The blame isn't solely on Lorgar though, is it?
The Emperor, despite wholly going into the whole "I'm your space dad" angle with all the Primarchs was a terrible father figure
.


While this is true, it's also somewhat meaningless. They were lost and most of them found other father figures that they had until adulthood.
That he's a crappy dad doesn't actually matter much- they don't even meet or even hear about him during their childhoods. Their collective biggest problem is that most of the primarchs didn't grow or mature well, some with deck actively stacked against them with their circumstances (Angron, Mortarion, Curze)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
Knowing the truth is always better than living a lie, this is a philosophical and ethical point for me. You can of course disagree, but from my POV telling people the truth is always the right thing to do.


I mean, that's demonstrably not true in the real world, even before you add in dark powers, accurate future visions and etc.

If you go around telling kids 'the truth' about various genetic and developmental conditions they can do nothing about and all the suffering they'll endure over their lifetime, you're just a jackass, not an exalted paragon of honesty.

Flinging truth around like an absolute is as damaging as any weapon (psychologically, anyway)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/06 14:01:15


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
What advantage would it bring if Lorgar managed to make everyone aware of Chaos and the truth about Chaos?


It could be argued that rather than keeping people in the dark as the Emperor tried to do about Chaos gods and daemons, he should have acknowledged their existence but set them as Devil figures and Evil to be resisted against. To some extent the Ecclesiarchy has done so but in a vague sense as they aren't allowed to refer directly to Chaos specifically.

The problem with keeping the population ignorant, is the unknown can attract curiosity, and then when the daemons point out the lies of the Emperor, people are more likely to turn entirely away from the Emperor due to anger and disillusionment about being lied to.

Now the problem is the Heresy novels and the retconning of the Emperor to be all atheist and such, whereas before in 2nd edition it seems the Emperor did not actively try to push any specific stance. The Emperor only seemed to care when the Word Bearers were slower than other Legions in their conquests. He cared about the numbers of worlds conquered, whereas Lorgar (in Lorgar's own mind) seemed to be going for quality over quantity.

That is the hardest part to explain now ever since the idea of the Imperial Truth was introduced into the setting. Why did the Emperor tolerate Lorgar's religion building for so many years then? Did the Emperor think Lorgar would "grow out" of it like some rebellious teenager growing out of a phase? If so, then the Emperor is a poor judge of character.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Voss: On an individual basis you can delay telling the truth ethically because children are not emotionally mature enough to deal with it and it might do them some developmental damage. But once someone is an adult withholding the truth "for their own good" is paternalistic as feth. You should tell people the truth and let them decide what to do with it. Kids can't always do that because their brains haven't fully developed, but once they have developed enough to know the truth they should be told, absolutely.

Edit to add: The Horus Heresy novels have some good individual installments, but they fluffed it with most of the important characters. They weren't able to write the Emperor or most of the primarchs very well and so we end up with these really weird problems with the Imperial Truth and so on. As well as the "magic knife make Horus bad in the second book" disappointment, so we never really get to see any character development from the titular character, he's basically a non-character from the moment he gets magic knifed. Ah well. At least some of the other books are alright.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/06 14:15:24


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Da Boss wrote:
Voss: On an individual basis you can delay telling the truth ethically because children are not emotionally mature enough to deal with it and it might do them some developmental damage. But once someone is an adult withholding the truth "for their own good" is paternalistic as feth. You should tell people the truth and let them decide what to do with it. Kids can't always do that because their brains haven't fully developed, but once they have developed enough to know the truth they should be told, absolutely.

Edit to add: The Horus Heresy novels have some good individual installments, but they fluffed it with most of the important characters. They weren't able to write the Emperor or most of the primarchs very well and so we end up with these really weird problems with the Imperial Truth and so on. As well as the "magic knife make Horus bad in the second book" disappointment, so we never really get to see any character development from the titular character, he's basically a non-character from the moment he gets magic knifed. Ah well. At least some of the other books are alright.


It would have been better to play up the whole Horus as Lucifer discontent with the displacement of the angels (i.e. Space Marines) in favor of what is viewed as an inferior normal humanity since the Heresy is basically the War in Heaven like from Milton's Paradise Lost. The struggle for normal human civilian control of the power structures of the Imperium vs. SM as warlords lording it over the normal humans, which is exactly the kind of society seen on daemon worlds and in nearly all CSM warbands.

That was the topic of one of the old 2nd edition short stories, where a Blood Angel reflected and concluded that the purpose of SM was to serve humanity not rule over humanity, which is the opposite conclusion of the CSM.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/06 14:33:51


 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Yup. That was kinda where I thought they were going in Horus Rising, with the reveal that the Emperor had been lying about the Warp just a big factor in the breach of trust. Sadly, magic knife was in the old background and I guess they felt they had to keep it in.

   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






 Da Boss wrote:
Knowing the truth is always better than living a lie, this is a philosophical and ethical point for me. You can of course disagree, but from my POV telling people the truth is always the right thing to do.


I disagree when it comes to the Chaos Gods.

The Emperor knew they can’t be conquered or successfully bargained with, as the cost is always ill defined. You cannot master them, because they’re fundamentally insane by our standards.

There’s even an argument to be made that as an emotion made manifest, they’re not truly sentient. They’re just obsession embodied.

If you can keep their existence under wraps? Then there’s less chance someone with good intentions, such as Magnus and even Lorgar, will go poking around in the first place. Ignorance of their existence is arguably better than knowledge of their nature.

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Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Knowing the truth is always better than living a lie, this is a philosophical and ethical point for me. You can of course disagree, but from my POV telling people the truth is always the right thing to do.


I disagree when it comes to the Chaos Gods.

The Emperor knew they can’t be conquered or successfully bargained with, as the cost is always ill defined. You cannot master them, because they’re fundamentally insane by our standards.

There’s even an argument to be made that as an emotion made manifest, they’re not truly sentient. They’re just obsession embodied.

If you can keep their existence under wraps? Then there’s less chance someone with good intentions, such as Magnus and even Lorgar, will go poking around in the first place. Ignorance of their existence is arguably better than knowledge of their nature.

On the other hand, if you keep people ignorant of the chaos gods, you make it easier for them to pretend they're some sort of benign or benevolent entity. Knowing at least that chaos can only lead to corruption is pretty important, even if the details can be kept secret.
   
 
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