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Help, Warhammer community: I want to buy Blackstone Fortress for my cousin's 12 year old birthday, but my fam is putting their foot down, saying 40k is too adult for sensitive kids like them. I must find a way to convince them...I think 12 yrs is old enough for this boy!

Said fam knows 40k lore quite well, so I'm a bit pressed to use any lore-based arguments here. Does anyone have any similar experience, or have any idea how to convince one about such things?

Even Age of Sigmar is better than nothing...but they won't even budge on that lol.

EDIT: Sorry, this is MY fam that is saying NOT to do this for them. The recipient family is entirely cool with anything. Thus the conundrum*!

EDIT 2: It's not my parents that are against it, but the fam I live with.

EDIT 3: To be clear, my in-house fam is very keenly aware of the lore/Warhammer/etc., but the kid's parents are absolutely not, but are generally cool with anything (except video games for some reason).

Plenty of things did more severe, permanent damage to my brain when I was a kid than 40k lore ever has. Unfettered access to the internet, for one.

Let your cousin's family raise their own kid, even if you think their choices about what media to give them access to are silly.

There isn't a real answer here I'm afraid. If they've made their mind up, you aren't going to change it. By your words, they've made their mind up (firm, etc), they know the lore themselves so aren't being blind about it, and so I'm not sure their is an argument. If they know the GW stuff, they know its a game promoting imagination, problem solcing, math skills , all the usual benefits. If they don't, maybe use those?

Related anecdote:
I lived through the D&D (and more generally RPG's) were the devils work etc. I remember parents bringing a religious leader to the house to "Have a talk with my mom." Fortunately, this minister listened, heard my mother's kids were home at the kitchen table friday and saturday night, and said "Sounds fine, I mean, they could be out drinking like most kids..." and left us alone.

This doesn't seem anything like that, since it sounds more like wait a few years than that, so count your blessings, and perhaps be like this minister, and give it a few years.

The lore for GW games is grimdark, a world where everyone just wants to kill everyone etc etc. If they feel this is too much for their 12 year old, you're not in a position to tell them they're wrong. Do I agree with them? Doesn't matter. I am not the one who gets to decide in this case.

Sorry, this is MY fam that is saying NOT to do this for them. The recipient family is entirely cool with anything. Thus the conundrum*!

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
Sorry, this is MY fam that is saying NOT to do this for them. The recipient family is entirely cool with anything. Thus the conundrum*!

Are you aged 18 or older?

Togusa wrote:

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
Sorry, this is MY fam that is saying NOT to do this for them. The recipient family is entirely cool with anything. Thus the conundrum*!

Are you aged 18 or older?

Yes. But I'm not going to do something that deeply offends my own fam just to get my cousin's kid a game. Thus I'm trying to see what rationale and logic I can use here.

 Netsurfer733 wrote:

Togusa wrote:

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
Sorry, this is MY fam that is saying NOT to do this for them. The recipient family is entirely cool with anything. Thus the conundrum*!

Are you aged 18 or older?

Yes. But I'm not going to do something that deeply offends my own fam just to get my cousin's kid a game. Thus I'm trying to see what rationale and logic I can use here.

Like it or not, you're an adult. You can do whatever you want to do. Buy it for him, or don't. That's on you.

 Netsurfer733 wrote:

Togusa wrote:

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
Sorry, this is MY fam that is saying NOT to do this for them. The recipient family is entirely cool with anything. Thus the conundrum*!

Are you aged 18 or older?

Yes. But I'm not going to do something that deeply offends my own fam just to get my cousin's kid a game. Thus I'm trying to see what rationale and logic I can use here.

If its going to 'deeply offend' them, then... I'm not sure logic and reason are in play?

Personally, I wouldn't stress about a gift for a 12 year old anyway. My default assumption is it'll get shoved in a closet and forgotten anyway. The odds of assembling, painting, playing over an extended period of time strike me as unlikely, but maybe the kid is the usual 'exception.'

Voss wrote:

 Netsurfer733 wrote:

Togusa wrote:

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
Sorry, this is MY fam that is saying NOT to do this for them. The recipient family is entirely cool with anything. Thus the conundrum*!

Are you aged 18 or older?

Yes. But I'm not going to do something that deeply offends my own fam just to get my cousin's kid a game. Thus I'm trying to see what rationale and logic I can use here.

If its going to 'deeply offend' them, then... I'm not sure logic and reason are in play?

Personally, I wouldn't stress about a gift for a 12 year old anyway. My default assumption is it'll get shoved in a closet and forgotten anyway. The odds of assembling, painting, playing over an extended period of time strike me as unlikely, but maybe the kid is the usual 'exception.'

I hear you, though I do love the heck out of this kid lol. He and his sister are truly creative, board-game lovers, and this sort of hobby would be an easy win for them. Especially with something like Blackstone Fortress to sink their teeth into. And many years down the line, we'd have another set of players to add to our small gaming group. It's the perfect crime

You might worry about whether you're feeding overly-gory glorified fascism to a 12-year-old, but you might also worry about whether you're handing a 12-year-old a fantastically expensive chore. Maybe try testing the waters by exposing the kid to your stuff and see if they're even interested first?

I was about that age when starting the LoTR battle game so I fail to see the harm. Warhammer lore can be a bit out there perhaps but there is no reason he needs to be introduced to that at this point, surely you can introduce the game without delving immediately into the less PG lore stuff?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You might worry about whether you're feeding overly-gory glorified fascism to a 12-year-old

This really is the heart of the matter. I made a thread about this a while ago, and folks properly convinced me out of it. The kid and his family are incredibly smart though, so in no way could this encourage any sort of negativity, and obviously he has no one else that would engage in that. So 'exposing' them to these ideas would mean nothing, especially if I tell them up front that 40k is intended to be a sort of political satire in addition to everything else. So I think my own fam (again, not the kid's family/parents at all) is still somehow concerned about the idea of even exposing such a kid to such ideas. But exactly how impressionable can a smart, even if sensitive, 12 year old boy be?

If you are truly worried about that just start spoon feeding him the clearly satirical lore first. 12 year olds can be impressionable though, but I don't think one will fall to Fascism because he plays 40k.
Also if i remember correctly, Blackstone Fortress is pretty much an adventure story/campaign? So I again fail to see the harm. Otherwise consider Killteam with the less evil factions.

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
But exactly how impressionable can a smart, even if sensitive, 12 year old boy be?

Is that a trick question? Stepping away your actual issue for a moment to pontificate- 12 is basically the perfect age to indoctrinate children. Has been for millennia. Apprentices, soldiers, knights, child-soldiers, terrorists, cultists, latest cartoon/toy/pokemon craze, whatever. Its the perfect age because they _are_ inherently impressionable at that age. If you're a cynical person looking to exploit children, that's what 12 year olds are for.


Though I don't think games and fiction are really that effective at that in any meaningful way, and I don't (hopefully obviously) advocate actually indoctrinating children.

Voss wrote:

 Netsurfer733 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You might worry about whether you're feeding overly-gory glorified fascism to a 12-year-old

This really is the heart of the matter. I made a thread about this a while ago, and folks properly convinced me out of it. The kid and his family are incredibly smart though, so in no way could this encourage any sort of negativity, and obviously he has no one else that would engage in that. So 'exposing' them to these ideas would mean nothing, especially if I tell them up front that 40k is intended to be a sort of political satire in addition to everything else. So I think my own fam (again, not the kid's family/parents at all) is still somehow concerned about the idea of even exposing such a kid to such ideas. But exactly how impressionable can a smart, even if sensitive, 12 year old boy be?

Is that a trick question? Stepping away your actual issue for a moment to pontificate- 12 is basically the perfect age to indoctrinate children. Has been for millennia. Apprentices, soldiers, knights, child-soldiers, terrorists, cultists, latest cartoon/toy/pokemon craze, whatever. Its the perfect age because they _are_ inherently impressionable at that age. If you're a cynical person looking to exploit children, that's what 12 year olds are for.

Lol yes...and I suppose that's what my own fam is afraid of there, even if his parents/family isn't. Like some have said above though, I don't see the harm when you really dig down into what they *should* be getting out of it.

But I'm getting the gist that there are more than one voices here now that are actually advising caution...so maybe there is something to it. I was hoping with Blackstone Fortress as opposed to mainstream 40k/codexes, this might be a reasonable starting point for a 12 year old, specifically. Even my fam was ok with Warhammer Adventures novels. But, oh well. Maybe I should just give it up for a few years after all....

40k is a terrible game to give to young children, it will introduce them to concepts like the inherent cruelty of the state and how religious zealotry perpetuates cycles of violence.

More seriously, when it comes to a boomer with Moral Concerns it doesn't really matter how right you are. There's nothing wrong with you giving the kid some space marines if his parents are fine with it; if yours don't it really just comes down to how many problems that's going to cause for you to fight them over it.

Can I make a suggestion: skip the Warhammer subject if it's going to be an issue and get them Lord of the Rings.

It's still a GW game, but they'll have a much harder time arguing that it's not suitable.

That nevertheless introduces them to GW as a company and a range of games, meaning if they look and find warhammer (either kind) interesting, they can make their decision themselves.


Don't get me wrong, I think Blackstone fortress should be fine. Let's not forget that the Hunger Games and the Dark Knight are considered acceptable for 12 year olds (both 12a)

BFG is about some adventurers on a mysterious Space station. It doesn't touch whatever atrocities are going on in fascist Imperium. Your party can Include Xenos even if you take the ecclesiarchy guy. It's a really soft start.

 Netsurfer733 wrote:

Togusa wrote:

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
Sorry, this is MY fam that is saying NOT to do this for them. The recipient family is entirely cool with anything. Thus the conundrum*!

Are you aged 18 or older?

Yes. But I'm not going to do something that deeply offends my own fam just to get my cousin's kid a game. Thus I'm trying to see what rationale and logic I can use here.

Then why are you asking? You know your family & their opinions/views & you know how far you're willing to push things.

Game stores are full of great games that aren't 40k. I suggest looking at a board game called Horrified - it's a game of trying to defeat the various Universal Monsters (Dracula, Frankenstien, etc.). Decently challenging, easy to learn right out of the box, and can entertain the whole family. It's also readily available at Target/Amazon/etc & doesn't cost anywhere near a GW game.

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
Help, Warhammer community: I want to buy Blackstone Fortress for my cousin's 12 year old birthday, but my fam is putting their foot down, saying 40k is too adult for sensitive kids like them. I must find a way to convince them...I think 12 yrs is old enough for this boy!

Said fam knows 40k lore quite well, so I'm a bit pressed to use any lore-based arguments here. Does anyone have any similar experience, or have any idea how to convince one about such things?

Even Age of Sigmar is better than nothing...but they won't even budge on that lol.

EDIT: Sorry, this is MY fam that is saying NOT to do this for them. The recipient family is entirely cool with anything. Thus the conundrum*!

I started playing when I was 11, made my Dakka account when I was 14. I rode my bike with my army strapped on the back uphill both ways 10 kilometers just to play a game sometimes. I got in way more trouble when I stopped playing Warhammer for a while and tried "growing up".

Blackstone Fortress is awesome for kids because it is a cooperative play game; players have to work together to defeat the bad guys.

It has novels based on, so if the kid likes it, he might read them.

I'm an educator by trade. I've taught kids both reading and math using 40k; because it is connected to a fun game, even reluctant readers might make it through a novel.

If they are concerned about the kid's sensitivity, they need to learn to play with the kid so that they can a) see the game's potential to teach and inculcate both literacy and numeracy and b) help reassure the kid enough that he learns the difference between violence associated with entertainment media and real violence.

This last is a very, very important life skill, and coddling children is as harmful or worse than letting them figure it out on their own. The most effective method is, and has always been to allow the child to experience the media in the company of a trusted, caring adult who is willing to decode, debrief and discuss before during and after based on the kid's need as opposed to the parent's internalized value system.

PenitentJake beat me to it. You're looking at this from the wrong angle. You don't convince them about the game, you convince them about what interacting with the game is in practice.

If the kid already likes 40k, then they are going to engage with the hobby. That includes painting and socializing. The kid's going to have motivation and opportunity to express themselves through the models. Like Jake said, that particular game is cooperative too. They'll get to play together with friends and family, and eventually engage with the local community. It'll be really important to engage with older people on a nearly-peer basis; it'll mature them by association, by forcing themself to adhere to social expectations of young adults.

There's a ton of arguments you can leverage about it being good for their development. And, again, ultimately you can just do it if you want.

I haven’t played black stone fortress but if it’s a cut down version of 40K then I can see that the game it’s self is ok for kids. But the 40K setting, the concepts of never ending violence and war and some of the stuff that’s gets dealt with isn’t suitable for some children and I could see why some parents wouldn’t want their kids exposed to it that young.

Some of the SOB stuff is pretty grown up, repentia squads and penitent engines etc. where as the ultramarines of course are pretty kid friendly until you get into the stories where space marines couldn’t careless about human life. There aren’t supposed to be any real heroes in the world of 40K

Started with Rogue Trader when I was 10, but I was already into Aliens & Terminator so it was much more benign. My sister, hell no, she'd get scared if our dad & I stated talking about the newest horror move. If they're a reasonably normal hormonal gak show(pre-teen) then yes, if not then use your discretion.

If it's you're parents & theirs are telling you no, then no.

But if the receivers parents don't care I'd say go for it. What are your parents gonna do, ground you?(if yes then don't do it)

BSF is overcomplicated and boring anyway.

If the boy's family are boardgamers, chances are they know the difference between a well designed game and a bad one. GW boardgames have a really poor reputation among the boardgaming crowd outside of the GW bubble. Maybe find something that is more likely to appeal to someone who knows modern, state-of-the-art game design as playing a GW game could be a step back for them ?

I started the hobby, mostly reading lore and painting the models rather than playing, at 11. I honestly don't think that GW's settings are as grim dark as they claim, I'd definitely recommend the hobby to a kid that is interested in sci-fi, fantasy or adventures.

It should be simple: If you are an adult spending their own money and the cousin's family have no objection's and you want to give a certain gift, buy the gift. It's none of your family's business.

Unless there are other factor's at play......?

a well-adjusted 12-year-old is psychologically developed enough to understand the differences between a fantasy universe and reality. If he is well adjusted and does not suffer from any kind of mental illness (and I'm being quite serious here, and meaning no offense) there is absolutely no harm in it.

I promise they are exposed to far worse material by watching the news.