Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, there are those hidden amongst us who mostly or entirely enjoyed the Star Wars sequels or maybe love them to bits, and you know who you are...

This thread is for you, and we'd love to know three things you did like about the Sequels, perhaps one thing from each of the three movies.

Rule of engagement: Don't even think about it. This thread is a space to breath for those who want to chat about the sequels without getting clobbered with negatives, of which there are plenty of threads and avenues for that. So please stay on topic.

With that said, enjoy!

It felt like Star Wars. Grubby, lived in, believable.

We also saw more than The Usual Planets, expanding things somewhat.

I liked the kinda non-romance between Rey and Ren. Yes they smooch at the end, but not in a romantic way.

The demilitarisation of The New Republic made more sense to me than “and now we’ve nicked all the SSD for your protection why yes Palps did claim the same thing but we totes means it honest”

I really liked the clear Fanaticism of Hux in TFA with his speech on Starkiller Base. It gave us an idea of what rattling around in their demented brains.

Kylo Ren being a highly tortured young man was interesting. He’s kind of a victim, in his own way. Manipulated by Snoke/Palps, abandoned (in his eyes) by his parents.

Chewie tackling Phasma still raises a chuckle for me. Probably always will.

Kanto Bight I quite enjoyed as not just a new planet, but a new type of location. Somewhere explicitly not run down, but actually well to do.

There’s more of us, Poe. There’s more of us. Cinematic Joy. I’m glad I’ve got a big screen high def TV, as I like to pause that bit and go Ship Spotting.

More than anything? They’re fun.

Oh. And I appreciated the Time Jump, and not just picking up straight after ROTJ. Just as with the gap between the prequels and OT, it gave a big old period of time for “who knows?”. I like they didn’t try to tie down too much. Sure, we know Kylo Ren destroyed everything Luke had built up. But I’m not sure we got a precise timing for that (10 years before Sequels, 5 years before Sequels etc). And I’m loving the backfilling done in Mando.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also also?

Poe’s derring do and actual Ace Piloting on Takodona. Rather than being a fluff job for a new character to get them “over” with the audience? It was latest tech being used to provide the sort of effect I’m sure we’d have seen Luke, Wedge et al up to had it been available all those years ago.

I also liked Luke being a grumpy git. He’d yearned for adventure as a kid, then found he had this great destiny. Until Real Life came a-knockin’ and he utterly blew it,

His taunting of Kylo is still a favourite scene of mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Maz Kanata. Wish she’d been used more, because she’s a great screen presence.

I think the Rey and Ren relationship was pretty interesting.

I also really like the idea that Rey's parents were Nobody.

I also liked the idea that the rebellion reached out for help at the end of the Last Jedi, and no one bothered to help. The Galaxy wanted the First Order to win.

I liked how old man Luke was handled and can totally see how an old war hero and galactic superstar could go all crunchy hermit on the bit.

I overall like 7 probably enough to rank it among the original trilogy. It's not remotely original, but at least they copied one of the best films out there. It's big failing is just that the whole Republic/Resistance/First Order triangle is way more complicated than "rebels fighting evil empire" but doesn't frame it in a way that explains it through context clues. Still, Rey is great, Finn is great, Poe is phenomenal and Kylo succeeds in owning up to the idea that there can never really be another Vader by trying and failing to live up to the name. I personally think the Rathtars are kind of a low point in the story, but not enough is said about the incredible flight cinematography throughout the film.

On the whole, I really like 8. It's too long. Like way way too long and it definitely tries too hard in several places, mostly by taking things too far and drawing them out, but the things I really like about this film are some of my favorite scenes in the entire franchise. Snoke is everything I wanted out of Palpatine in the prequels. An absolute powerhouse who aggressively abuses those around him through total mastery of the Dark Side. He can really only be defeated by someone who understands his power and turns it against him and we STILL get a great saber fight out of it anyway.

I think Luke could have been handled a little better, but given his absence in 7 the direction they took worked. I'd have probably toned down the "murder Ben" scene. Having something where Luke lets down his guard and Ben hears his thoughts and fears of his power would have been more in keeping with both characters. For me its less about Luke and more an issue with trying to give Ben sympathy I think he's better without. Luke's send off is absolutely Epic though and again, one of my favorite moments in the entire franchise.

The fall of the Resistance is another thing full of great ideas, even if its too long. The chase gives the whole movie a sense of "real time" that the rest of the films generally benefit from ignoring. Ultimately though, its the arc that leaves me most excited for the future of the franchise. The old gets completely burned away and its scary and heartbreaking and hopeless in a way the franchise hasn't actually accomplished since Empire. The last shot of the slave boy rising to the cause after the great betrayal of those who claimed to support justice gives the Galaxy possibility in a way I haven't felt since I first read Heir to the Empire.

And then there's 9... but this is a positive thread, so I'll leave it at that.

 LunarSol wrote:
I overall like 7 probably enough to rank it among the original trilogy. It's not remotely original, but at least they copied one of the best films out there. It's big failing is just that the whole Republic/Resistance/First Order triangle is way more complicated than "rebels fighting evil empire" but doesn't frame it in a way that explains it through context clues.

I have this theory that if they'd started the trilogy after the fall of the New Republic...it would have solved a lot of problems. Would have been even more derivative of the OT...but in for 99 pennies/pence, in for the pound. I think you'd want to put a twist on the formula, though.

I enjoyed all of the sequels, with TLJ being one of my favorites of the saga. I only wish we had more of grumpy old man Luke.

They had their flaws, for sure, but so do all of the preceding movies. Overall, they're fun, and they feel like Star Wars.

I think the move back to using practical effects as much as possible was a big part of that, for me.

And they add some new and suitably epic battles to the last. The visuals in the battle at the end of TLJ are just awesome, as is the sheer spectacle of the end of RoS.

 gorgon wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I overall like 7 probably enough to rank it among the original trilogy. It's not remotely original, but at least they copied one of the best films out there. It's big failing is just that the whole Republic/Resistance/First Order triangle is way more complicated than "rebels fighting evil empire" but doesn't frame it in a way that explains it through context clues.

I have this theory that if they'd started the trilogy after the fall of the New Republic...it would have solved a lot of problems. Would have been even more derivative of the OT...but in for 99 pennies/pence, in for the pound. I think you'd want to put a twist on the formula, though.

I think its right when it needs to be. The destruction of the New Republic is a huge event and I'd hate to have it happen off screen. It really wouldn't have taken much to establish the stakes. Just look at how powerful Luke's offhand comment about "the Rebellion against the Empire" is. Something similar would have gone a long way. Just someone saying something like "we're a long way from the protection of the Republic. If not for the Resistance, we'd be slaves to the First Order already" would go a long way to giving some context.

I suspect some of it is just how much they avoided adding too much to the opening crawl. Imagine how much just this little bit in bold adds to the crawl:

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE, dedicated to protecting the outer worlds from conquest. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

We just needed a bit of context and honestly I don't think it would have taken all that much.

I actually almost started a general 'good things about star wars' thread but this is close enough.

I kinda liked Kylo's lightsaber. Since a lot of lightsaber fighters we've seen lost hands in duels it was about time someone made a lightsaber with crossguards.

I liked the fact that rey POd a lot of Aholes, and a lot of the bashers exposed themselves as racist and sexist trolls.

I thought it was good to portray the bad guy not as some really cool kinda tough badass but really as a whiney tantrum throwing little emo goth (rhymes with rich). I mean sure vader was cool and really impressive, plus he was a cold blooded mass murderer and not really anyone any sane person would emulate, but he looked cool and acted badass.

Ren, well, i already said it. The bad guys aren't cool, kids, and you really don't want to be one. Hux really drove this home too. (Honestly between ren and hux i don't know who was the bigger rhymes with rich.) It was good not to see the evil, murdering villains glamorized but portrayed as in many ways sad, pathetic people under their badass exteriors.

Also i liked the fact that the movie caused someone to make plans for this, which is a cool terrain piece for 40k and i guess wfb too.

https://www.instructables.com/DIY-Starwars-Sith-Wayfinder/

Lastly i guess i liked seeing it pretty much confirmed that JJA is a gak director who wrecks franchises.

"I didn't know there was this much green in the whole galaxy"-Rey


Maybe my favorite line in all of star wars. Top three for sure.

I loved the starkiller lightsaber fight in the trees.

Kylo was compelling to me as a character in TFA.

Positive things about the sequels:
-Visuals. Lots of interesting planets and new ship/vehicles, as well as updates of classic favorites like the X-wing. That was honestly cool. But we won't talk about those bombers from the beginning of TLJ as this is a positive thread...
-Characters. Oddly the only one of the main characters I liked was Poe, the others felt like missed opportunities. But other characters like Maz Kanata and the little technician guy from TROS were cool.
-Epic events: The exchange between Kylo Ren and Luke was pretty cool, especially when Kylo realizes Luke isn't really there and Luke says "See ya round, kid." The arrival of all the ships at the end of TROS was another pretty impressive moment.

SamusDrake wrote:
... and we'd love to know three things you did like about the Sequels...

A New Hope 2: I liked Rey. And Poe.

The Last Jedi: The hyperspace ram was one of the coolest things I've ever seen on screen.

Rise of Skywalker: It eventually ended.

Poe was good in all the films.

I absolutely love the Rey/Ren dynamic in TLJ; their Force conversations allow them to talk without being in/ on the verge of combat and there’s a wonderful back and forth of is she falling to the dark side or pulling him back to the light? Or a bit of both? It’s really interesting character development and something new and different for the universe. It also leads to the amazing throne room battle and an actual well-earned villain heel-turn moment from Kylo; his idea of “burn the past” fits exactly with everything we know of his character and history and even picks up the “balance the force” themes from the prequels, but him using that as an excuse to rule the galaxy also shows the twist of the dark side that he has been exposed to.

Similarly I wish they’d stuck with the Jedi texts being burned, as Rey just needing to be a good person is a really powerful message.

It’s such a shame that they didn’t expand on this core theme (and the related “Rey is nobody”) in episode 9, although they did give us the even cooler “phasing” fight, at least.

One nice touch was really never seen very well, it was kyloi ren;'s lightsager, which i liked. If you saw a good long closeup of it, it looked like this:



I mean, it looks like he had a regular saber and kitbashed it to make that crossguard model he had. I mean really, doesn't this just scream "armature customization job" at you?

So maybe he took his jedi version and decided to show uncle luke how smart he was by making it better in the equivalent of a garage or basement workshop.

Too bad he tossed it in an ocean. In some ways it was the coolest looking one there was just because it looked like someone took a standard model and did some serious " upgrading' on it.

it's kind of typical about how a lot of modern SF goes. I mean get this tiny details so right, and people barely notice them because they're not really prominent. But big things like plot, story, etc. are just totally botched. it's kinda like how they did discotrek, i mean a lot of the tech details were great, the new phasers looked like a evolution of the rotary barrel lasers from the original pilot and the models seen in TOS. I can't stand discotrek and wouldn;t watch it if it were free but i liked the technical details i saw. Too bad the big stuff was a toxic radioactive hot mess.

Luke the Grumpy Git. As fed up with the whole thing as Mark must have been at some point.

Han - still trying be the wheeler-dealer, not realizing how lame it looks on someone of his age.

Kylo outwitting Snoke and killing him.

They overplayed it, but the 'message for Hux' ploy to give time for the escape.

The no nonsense Dreadnought Captain at the start of TLJ.

The canon-blasting hyperspace ram - a great image.

The 'silhouettes' as the Falcon returns to the battle in TLJ climax.

Luke v Kylo duel.

I love that RJ realized that Kylo Ren was the best character in the ST -- and Adam Driver the best actor -- and that HE needs to be the villain.

Ren dispatching Snoke isn't just a great move within the context of the story -- a great twist on the OT formula that also gives Ren some great character development. It's also a great symbolic move that a good storyteller shouldn't need this ill-defined shadowy dark lord/wizard character to make the story work.

I love that TLJ threw cold water on the idea that Ben/Kylo was 'redeemable'. He wasn't, and neither was Darth Vader. But it doesn't really matter, because you can have a very evil villain who's also understandable and kinda relatable.

Yeah, making Kylo the villain had me incredibly excited for 9. It's a big part of why I left 8 really hyped for the future of the franchise. There were a couple things I really REALLY wanted them to do with Kylo:

- I wanted him haunted by Luke's Ghost. Hammil would have had so much fun in the role, and it would have played right into the way we see him at the end of 8.

- I wanted one more twist on Rey. I LOVE her being a nobody, but I wanted her to also be the ultimate example of Kylo's failure. I wanted Ben to have found her abandoned and brought her back to the temple. The night he turns on Luke I want him to go to kill the younglings and balk, instead hiding her on Jakku. Kylo creating his own undoing by just not living up to his grandfather's evil would have been perfect.

I'm not sure how I feel about redeeming Kylo. I certainly don't like how it was done with the whole clean slate treatment. I don't really think he needed to die the villain either. His death robs the franchise of the best character its had in decades. I think what I'd have really liked is to leave him in a penitent role. Make him some kind of scar in the Force, stripped of power, but able to seek out the source of the Sith in a way the heroes generally aren't allowed.

I’d say Kylo Ben is one of the more interesting characters within canon.

He’s just an angry, confused and damaged young man. All at sixes and sevens with himself.

Oh, and that “shrug, come at me, bros” when he takes on the Knights of Ren is just great in my book. As is the inclusion of the raised finger, just like Han used to do.

 LunarSol wrote:
Yeah, making Kylo the villain had me incredibly excited for 9. It's a big part of why I left 8 really hyped for the future of the franchise. There were a couple things I really REALLY wanted them to do with Kylo:

- I wanted him haunted by Luke's Ghost. Hammil would have had so much fun in the role, and it would have played right into the way we see him at the end of 8.

- I wanted one more twist on Rey. I LOVE her being a nobody, but I wanted her to also be the ultimate example of Kylo's failure. I wanted Ben to have found her abandoned and brought her back to the temple. The night he turns on Luke I want him to go to kill the younglings and balk, instead hiding her on Jakku. Kylo creating his own undoing by just not living up to his grandfather's evil would have been perfect.

I'm not sure how I feel about redeeming Kylo. I certainly don't like how it was done with the whole clean slate treatment. I don't really think he needed to die the villain either. His death robs the franchise of the best character its had in decades. I think what I'd have really liked is to leave him in a penitent role. Make him some kind of scar in the Force, stripped of power, but able to seek out the source of the Sith in a way the heroes generally aren't allowed.

I hear you. There is a third way (well, many ways really) between "all is forgiven" and the stereotypical villain's death.

I think there was a missed opportunity in that trilogy to explore the nature of the Light and Dark Sides more. It stuck its toe in those waters and flirted with some yin-yang stuff, but that was about it. Might have been interesting to end the Rey-Kylo conflict on a kind of stalemate, where neither can truly defeat the other and the lines between Light & Dark have been blurred somewhat, surprising each of them. Then each goes off in their own way to explore that...Kylo questing similar to what you said (seeking external knowledge) and Rey taking a more monastic approach like her mentor (seeking internal knowledge). So the characters are each 'off the board' to a degree for future films, but available if the actors are.

EDIT: To be clear, I imagine their conflict as separate from the First Order-Resistance battle. So in the overall story, the Resistance/Rebellion could win and give the trilogy its happy ending, but Rey & Kylo would continue their battle after the credits roll...albeit in a different way. Each seeking out the meaning of the relationship between Light and Dark.

I dunno...just spitballing.

The Force Awakens is a lot of fun. It is a rethread of Star Wars, and that's okay by me because I'm fine with a new generation of kids having a cool space adventure film. I think it's a fun romp, it kinda doesn't have a lot to say but I like it and have re-watched it a few times. I really like all the new lead actors, they're all really charismatic and fun to watch.
The Last Jedi I thought was nearly brilliant. Nearly my favourite Star Wars film. But in the end it has a few critical flaws. I love that it wanted to say something about the screwed up nature of the Jedi/Sith dichotomy and how neither organisation is really any good. The Jedi are a bunch of absolute weirdos and it's frankly depressing that they were ever shown as the good guys. You can't love people? What? And then no relationships? Given we're supposed to believe the Force is genetic (urgh, hate this) now, how does that work?
So having Luke as a sort of a Grey Sider, a little touched by the Dark while standing in the Light I thought was a great idea. And I was really excited the whole way through that he was gonna really properly lay into the Jedi and reveal that they were awful, and that was why he would be the last one.
As it happened they kinda bottled that, but I absolutely loved his final scene, love that he won by being clever with the Force rather than just being good at swordfighting, and I loved the "Seeya round, Kid" line. I really hoped they were going to do Kylo Ren being haunted by Luke throughout the next film, and that would have been AMAZING.
Rey's scenes with Kylo were also cool and I loved their dramatic swordfight. I felt Finn was underused and that whole side quest section needed a second pass to be honest, as did the concept of the slow motion chase scene.
But the strength of the ideas involved and the fact that it actually questions the set up and goes to interesting places is cool, and I liked that we ended with Kylo Ren as the full on bad guy. And the hyperspace ram looked awesome and the choice to make it silent was a cool one.

The Rise of Skywalker...has some good action scenes and dramatic setpieces. Cavalry charge on a star destroyer was fun.

 gorgon wrote:

EDIT: To be clear, I imagine their conflict as separate from the First Order-Resistance battle. So in the overall story, the Resistance/Rebellion could win and give the trilogy its happy ending, but Rey & Kylo would continue their battle after the credits roll...albeit in a different way. Each seeking out the meaning of the relationship between Light and Dark.

I dunno...just spitballing.

I ultimately came to a similar conclusion. Like if I was to write out the whole thing, Rey would have turned her staff into a double bladed saber with the two halves of Anakin's crystal (99% sure the only reason they didn't do this is they only had footage of Carrie Fisher holding the original). Have the crew rushing to get out the message that leads to people rising up against the First Order as outlined in the Trevorrow script. Kylo leaves his throne to stop them, but as he catches up, Rey stays behind to guard the door, probably have her ignite the staff in a way that calls back to Darth Maul in TPM. The two battle, but Rey fights completely defensively never attacking as Kylo gets more reckless, ultimately resulting in him losing his saber in a fit of anger. In response Rey snaps the staff in two and tosses one end to Kylo to resume the battle, making it clear to him that today neither the Sith nor the Jedi will determine the future of the galaxy and that it will be left to the people. Let the fight resume, but at a clear stalemate with Kylo fighting until he's out of fight, maybe with Ghost Luke providing some commentary on the nature of the Force and the purpose of the Jedi.

 Da Boss wrote:
I love that it wanted to say something about the screwed up nature of the Jedi/Sith dichotomy and how neither organisation is really any good. The Jedi are a bunch of absolute weirdos and it's frankly depressing that they were ever shown as the good guys. You can't love people? What? And then no relationships? Given we're supposed to believe the Force is genetic (urgh, hate this) now, how does that work?

It's kinda interesting to consider that both the Light and Dark Sides seem to consistently push their users either into unhealthy, arrogant organizations or solitude. Neither side truly plays well with others.

I mean, the "good-guy" Jedi did actually attempt a coup in the prequel trilogy.

 gorgon wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I love that it wanted to say something about the screwed up nature of the Jedi/Sith dichotomy and how neither organisation is really any good. The Jedi are a bunch of absolute weirdos and it's frankly depressing that they were ever shown as the good guys. You can't love people? What? And then no relationships? Given we're supposed to believe the Force is genetic (urgh, hate this) now, how does that work?

It's kinda interesting to consider that both the Light and Dark Sides seem to consistently push their users either into unhealthy, arrogant organizations or solitude. Neither side truly plays well with others.

I mean, the "good-guy" Jedi did actually attempt a coup in the prequel trilogy.

This is why I’m interested in the post sequel sequels.

Rey has access to written word texts on The Force. So rather than learning by rote, she’ll be learning more directly. The difference between reading and digesting a philosophical work, and reading a textbook.

She has the opportunity to break the Monkies in the Cage thing, where people known not to do something, but not the why.

The Jedi and the Sith absolutely are extremes. Clone Wars, Rebels, and the sequels really did a good job of exploring that. It’s one thing to say “don’t get too close to people, lest you do something awful with The Force” and “Thou Shalt Not Love”.

If, in the moment, your emotions super charge your Force abilities? That’s not necessarily a Bad Thing. Emotions like The Force are natural things after all. Way I see it, the trick is to acknowledge that when doing so, you must remain in control.

Crap analogy time? Let’s say that as a real world Jedi type example, I’m a well hard MMA fighter (I’m not. I’m surprisingly soft for a chunky six footer). Now. In the MMA cage (Jedi v Sith) sure I can unleash my prowess to overcome my opponent, because I have to. Nothing wrong with that. But, let’s say I’m having a lovely pint in the pub, and someone who I know not to be a well hard MMA fighter picks a fight with me? Restraint is my friend. They’ve essentially no chance against me, so there’s no need for me to go full on match ready “butter your face up the nearest wall”, when I need only pin you. Minimal effort, maximum effect. As a real world Sith? Yeah all their limbs are disappearing up their various orifices, because what the hell are you going to do about it.

So to see Rey or someone after her redound a Jedi academy, with the lessons of the past and the original texts? There’s mileage in that.

I think that Star Wars had this really cool aesthetic and was a super fun adventure movie, but the mythology of it was super half baked and presents a really weird and inhuman take on the world. I think the Jedi and the Sith are honestly the weakest and least interesting part of the whole franchise and it's a terrible shame that most stuff has been hung on them. They are certainly interesting and cool, but I think putting all this weight on them for this enormous 9 movie run shows that they are a shaky, poorly thought out foundation.

I thought that the people writing the new movies had realised that, and the parts of TLJ when I can believe that that is what is going on are by far my favourite parts.

So MDG, I'm gonna disagree super hard here. I don't want to see anything else about jedi or sith any more. I'm done with them. I won't watch anything that focuses on them. If someone convinces me that the new take is really about deconstructing them and moving the franchise on from them, maybe I'll watch it, but aside from that I am not going to watch any more Star Wars stuff that is jedi/sith focused. Jedi/Sith characters? Fine. Lightsabers? Fine. But delving into....? I mean what? What is there?

This simplistic obsession with Jedi and Sith seems to be something the creators keep falling back to. Let's not forget that Snoke wasn't a Sith...or at least not until TROS, when he was revealed to be the Sithiest dude of all in disguise (more or less).

The dynamic should be about the Light Side and Dark Side. Not two completely failed organizations. (One could say that the Sith enjoyed some success during the 9 episodes, but one dude and a guy with a learner's permit isn't an organization anymore.)

 gorgon wrote:

The dynamic should be about the Light Side and Dark Side.

Actually, turning the Force into 'Light Side' and 'Dark Side' is part of where I think things went wrong. The Jedi didn't originally use the 'Light Side'... they just used the Force, which was supposed to represent everything. The Dark Side was a shortcut to power that ignored balance and focused on the 'negative' energies.

Somewhere along the line (and I'm not sure if it started in the EU or with the Prequels) this morphed into something far less interesting, where the Jedi had to be all 'Light' to counteract the dark, with the last vestige of the original creed being Mace Windu's 'Vaapad' style walking the line between light and dark - which is what all the jedi should always have been, and is how Luke is portrayed in RotJ.

MarkNorfolk wrote:
The no nonsense Dreadnought Captain at the start of TLJ.

Yup, I love the way his exasperation leans into the fact that the higher-ups in the First Order are largely all incompetent.

 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

The dynamic should be about the Light Side and Dark Side.

Actually, turning the Force into 'Light Side' and 'Dark Side' is part of where I think things went wrong. The Jedi didn't originally use the 'Light Side'... they just used the Force, which was supposed to represent everything. The Dark Side was a shortcut to power that ignored balance and focused on the 'negative' energies.

Somewhere along the line (and I'm not sure if it started in the EU or with the Prequels) this morphed into something far less interesting, where the Jedi had to be all 'Light' to counteract the dark, with the last vestige of the original creed being Mace Windu's 'Vaapad' style walking the line between light and dark - which is what all the jedi should always have been, and is how Luke is portrayed in RotJ.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think the idea of 'grey' Force users using both sides in a balanced way is still pretty solid though, even in the current Light/Dark paradigm. And the thing is that they keep teasing the greys...Luke, Mace, Rey, Kylo/Ben...the floor mosaic. But they keep stopping short of exploring it and retreat to white hats and black hats. It's like they know what the more interesting route would be, but feel like they need that clear, simplistic good/bad distinction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

EDIT: To be clear, I imagine their conflict as separate from the First Order-Resistance battle. So in the overall story, the Resistance/Rebellion could win and give the trilogy its happy ending, but Rey & Kylo would continue their battle after the credits roll...albeit in a different way. Each seeking out the meaning of the relationship between Light and Dark.

I dunno...just spitballing.

I ultimately came to a similar conclusion. Like if I was to write out the whole thing, Rey would have turned her staff into a double bladed saber with the two halves of Anakin's crystal (99% sure the only reason they didn't do this is they only had footage of Carrie Fisher holding the original). Have the crew rushing to get out the message that leads to people rising up against the First Order as outlined in the Trevorrow script. Kylo leaves his throne to stop them, but as he catches up, Rey stays behind to guard the door, probably have her ignite the staff in a way that calls back to Darth Maul in TPM. The two battle, but Rey fights completely defensively never attacking as Kylo gets more reckless, ultimately resulting in him losing his saber in a fit of anger. In response Rey snaps the staff in two and tosses one end to Kylo to resume the battle, making it clear to him that today neither the Sith nor the Jedi will determine the future of the galaxy and that it will be left to the people. Let the fight resume, but at a clear stalemate with Kylo fighting until he's out of fight, maybe with Ghost Luke providing some commentary on the nature of the Force and the purpose of the Jedi.

You know, it occurred to me that what we're describing here is not completely unlike Naruto and Sasuke's final battle, if you're familiar with the anime or manga.

Which was a battle of philosophies, and after a stalemate is resolved by them co-existing and each performing the role of Hokage as they feel it should be done. Rewatched it a while back with my kids and it struck me that it was a better resolution and storytelling than I had given it credit for.

I love that Rey is a unique and powerful character, that isn't afraid of being humbled to learn something. And I like how the hate she drew, exposed people that don't know what a mary sue is, and sexist jerks.

I like that Finn is brave when the chips are down, but really wants to avoid danger.

I like Rose and feel so bad for her loss of her sister/role model and also being willing to put herself on the line when asked.

I love how the First Order is social commentary of certain alt-right groups in modern times. In both their dangerous fanatism and thankful incompetence.

I like that what deals the death blow to the First Order/Final Order, is a collection of good people fighting for what's right regardless of the consquences.

I love how the casino scene shows that rich people love and profit off the misery of others and couldn't care less if the galaxy burns down around them, as long as they live in luxury apart from the 'unwashed masses'

The Hyperspace ram is one of the coolest cinematic moves in sci-fi history.

I like how JJA basically revived two stagnant sci-fi franchises. And is an absolutely amazing visionary.

The Tie Silencer is one of the dead sexiest fighters in sci-fi behind only the Black Lance Dragon from WC4.

I like grumpy Luke and the scene of him chucking the lightsaber over his shoulder was great.

I love that each film had great messages.

I liked the character swerves like making DJ someone built as the typical dashing rogue like Lando, be nothing more than a rat in it for money.

And the battles were on the whole so good.

 gorgon wrote:

You know, it occurred to me that what we're describing here is not completely unlike Naruto and Sasuke's final battle, if you're familiar with the anime or manga.

Which was a battle of philosophies, and after a stalemate is resolved by them co-existing and each performing the role of Hokage as they feel it should be done. Rewatched it a while back with my kids and it struck me that it was a better resolution and storytelling than I had given it credit for.

Yeah, I read the manga when it was first published. I think its hard to appreciate that last battle just because of the tonal whiplash of Obito > Madara > Kaguya > Sasuke. Had they just let Obito be the villain I think it would have been a smoother transition.

In any case, after reading the Trevarrow script I definitely felt that they hadn't figured out what to do with Kylo quite yet and of the options I considered, I definitely think Sasuke's exile path would work well if done correctly.