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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Hey everyone!

Now that the Sisters codex is out, we need to ask GW to address the elephant in the room : The Predator battle tank.

The new Castigator is superior to it in every way, whilst being CHEAPER in points cost.

The predator needs to come down to around 130-140 points for the variants. The Castigator gets the firepower of the Destructor variant almost with just the 3 heavy bolters,
add the 4 D3 autocannon or battlecannon on top of that, and its firepower potential is way higher, its no contest.

Make the predator great again! Reduce the point cost so Chaos players and Space Marine players alike will even consider including them in lists! I know as it stands I
wouldn't take it even in a casual list! What are your guys thoughts?
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






I can't remember and edition where the predator was actually good. I mean I agree with you and also wish the pred with 4 las was like...130-140.

The problem is GW undervalues mobility and invulnerable saves that other tanks gets and it overvalues the T7 stat.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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The castigator is cheaper, but still kind of not that enticing to take, even with the nerfs to the organ gun platform.
Nowadays for a tank to be good it has to either fly, be super undercosted, have an inv save or a combination of the three. If it is just a stock 140-180pts block of 10-11W with +3sv and t8, it is just not worth taking, unless somehow your army doesn't have any other source of long range fire support.

A predator to be could would need something like a rule that lets it shot twice, if it doesn't move. Or some very strong buffs coming from the outside. Like a inv stratagem, double shot stratagem, LoS ignoring stratagem etc.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User





Karol wrote:
The castigator is cheaper, but still kind of not that enticing to take, even with the nerfs to the organ gun platform.
Nowadays for a tank to be good it has to either fly, be super undercosted, have an inv save or a combination of the three. If it is just a stock 140-180pts block of 10-11W with +3sv and t8, it is just not worth taking, unless somehow your army doesn't have any other source of long range fire support.

A predator to be could would need something like a rule that lets it shot twice, if it doesn't move. Or some very strong buffs coming from the outside. Like a inv stratagem, double shot stratagem, LoS ignoring stratagem etc.


Well Sisters can give a castigator an inv save, so I think the new tank is pretty good. Space Marines can give the Predator a 5+ invuln through Psychic powers, the biggest problem as of right now
is the point cost imo. Its just way too high for what it offers, and it baffles me that almost every Space Marine tank got a 20 points drop but the Predator didn't.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Well it is an old tank. There is a lot of them on the secondary market, and there is a lot of rhinos and turrets made by other companies to fit them, GW doesn't have many entice to fix the tank.

On the other hand fixing something like an impulsor could earn them a quick buck, but I assume that GW has it plans done for the long time, and short time. Maybe the plan for marine vehicles to be strong in second part of 9th ed or in 10th. At the start of 8th, few people thought that from the look of rules alone, stuff like primaris or centurions is going to be a thing people are going to want to buy.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Black Knight wrote:
Hey everyone!

Now that the Sisters codex is out, we need to ask GW to address the elephant in the room : The Predator battle tank.

The new Castigator is superior to it in every way, whilst being CHEAPER in points cost.

The predator needs to come down to around 130-140 points for the variants. The Castigator gets the firepower of the Destructor variant almost with just the 3 heavy bolters,
add the 4 D3 autocannon or battlecannon on top of that, and its firepower potential is way higher, its no contest.

Make the predator great again! Reduce the point cost so Chaos players and Space Marine players alike will even consider including them in lists! I know as it stands I
wouldn't take it even in a casual list! What are your guys thoughts?


The Castigator is still doggak though. IT needs to be 130pts. The predator should be less

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Wouldn't be surprised if the pre-primaris vehicles eventually get phased out of Space Marines with IG and SoB getting the leftovers.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I can't remember and edition where the predator was actually good.


Around 3rd or 4th when GW gave assault cannons rend so the Blood Angels could spam even more with their Baal-pattern predators.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Altima wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if the pre-primaris vehicles eventually get phased out of Space Marines with IG and SoB getting the leftovers...


No, no, look at Sigmar. They'll get Legendsed in 10th, and then in 11th edition there will be an "old stuff" army book that crams, like, five different army books together into one army because no matter how much GW hates writing rules for old stuff they understand they have to keep pandering to the people that liked it.

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Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?

   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Karol wrote:
The castigator is cheaper, but still kind of not that enticing to take, even with the nerfs to the organ gun platform.
Nowadays for a tank to be good it has to either fly, be super undercosted, have an inv save or a combination of the three. If it is just a stock 140-180pts block of 10-11W with +3sv and t8, it is just not worth taking, unless somehow your army doesn't have any other source of long range fire support.

A predator to be could would need something like a rule that lets it shot twice, if it doesn't move. Or some very strong buffs coming from the outside. Like a inv stratagem, double shot stratagem, LoS ignoring stratagem etc.


Yea if it had the IG (and I think some other armies have this too) ability to shoot the turret twice if moved half speed, I think it would be much more appealing. Then you could keep it real cheap with no sponsors but still have a good amount of firepower. It should also have like 2 or 3 more wounds since it is a main battle tank (well I think it is right?) Actually most vehicles in the game should have a few more wounds at least, but that is a different discussion.

Also if the chaos one could take sponsors with reaper chain cannons that would also make it more appealing.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 xeen wrote:
Karol wrote:
The castigator is cheaper, but still kind of not that enticing to take, even with the nerfs to the organ gun platform.
Nowadays for a tank to be good it has to either fly, be super undercosted, have an inv save or a combination of the three. If it is just a stock 140-180pts block of 10-11W with +3sv and t8, it is just not worth taking, unless somehow your army doesn't have any other source of long range fire support.

A predator to be could would need something like a rule that lets it shot twice, if it doesn't move. Or some very strong buffs coming from the outside. Like a inv stratagem, double shot stratagem, LoS ignoring stratagem etc.


Yea if it had the IG (and I think some other armies have this too) ability to shoot the turret twice if moved half speed, I think it would be much more appealing. Then you could keep it real cheap with no sponsors but still have a good amount of firepower. It should also have like 2 or 3 more wounds since it is a main battle tank (well I think it is right?) Actually most vehicles in the game should have a few more wounds at least, but that is a different discussion.

Also if the chaos one could take sponsors with reaper chain cannons that would also make it more appealing.


Sponsons are mandatory.

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I don't see how you came to the conclusion that sponsons are mandatory on a Predator. The SM book (9th ed) says that it may have 2 heavy bolters or 2 lascannons not that it must.
   
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 jeff white wrote:
The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?


Ah yes, famously "running on fumes" companies, Games Workshop and Disney.

You also know jeff bezos is nearly broke because he cut his hair, and the American military budget must be critically underfunded because the planes keep crashing.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Wicked Ghast




I think the predator is fine. I have a list with 3 dakka predators that seem to do ok. it's not meta breaking or anything, but they're fine for their purpose.

it's kind of cheeky to run 3 Baal predators and 3 Dakka predators. yeah, its a lot of points, but that's a LOT of shots
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't see how you came to the conclusion that sponsons are mandatory on a Predator. The SM book (9th ed) says that it may have 2 heavy bolters or 2 lascannons not that it must.


Castigator sponsons are mandatory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?


Ah yes, famously "running on fumes" companies, Games Workshop and Disney.

You also know jeff bezos is nearly broke because he cut his hair, and the American military budget must be critically underfunded because the planes keep crashing.


Yeah, he's not the best at this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 22:46:27


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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Predators definitely got the boost they needed with the new Autocannon. I love the aesthetic of them, much better than the Primaris crap they've been putting out.

Is it better than the Castigator? Well do they fill the same role? The Cas is limited to the Auto/Battle cannon and Heavy Bolters, whereas the Pred can be outfitted with Las. I'm not sure you can make a decent comparison on stats alone when you consider the overall army benefits; I think the Marine benefits such as Doctrines etc affect the Pred more than the Sisters' ones do.

   
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Fresh-Faced New User





 Valkyrie wrote:
Predators definitely got the boost they needed with the new Autocannon. I love the aesthetic of them, much better than the Primaris crap they've been putting out.

Is it better than the Castigator? Well do they fill the same role? The Cas is limited to the Auto/Battle cannon and Heavy Bolters, whereas the Pred can be outfitted with Las. I'm not sure you can make a decent comparison on stats alone when you consider the overall army benefits; I think the Marine benefits such as Doctrines etc affect the Pred more than the Sisters' ones do.


Ah very true, thats a great point. So the heavy bolters will get -1 ap on turn 1, and in an Iron Hands list will also re roll 1's to hit, and you can spend CP to give it devastator doctrine again... I understand what you mean. Sisters tank comes with a 6+ invulnerable though.

Either way, would be nice to see a drop in points on the Predator, maybe not as drastic as I originally wanted, but maybe get it down to 150 points.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Let's put all the cards on the table.

Unit & Weapons
Castigator is 160 and has a 6++

4D3 S7 AP1 D2 - max of 24
9 S5 AP1 D2 - max of 18

Predator Destructor w/ 2 HBs is 160

2D3 S7 AP1/2 D3 - max of 18
6 S5 AP1/2 D2 - max of 12


"Doctrines"
Castigator gets 6++
Predator gets an additional AP in Heavy

"Super Docs"
Sisters 'super doc' is miracle dice. There is only one Sacred Right that the Castigator would benefit from and I imagine it will be the least used.

RG - +1 to hit and to wound in Tac
IH - reroll 1s in Heavy
IF - +1D w/ AC vs VEHICLE

Orders
VH 5+++ vs MW and reducing AP by 1 for AP1/2 seems meh at best
AS reroll one hit or one wound is ok
The rest seem useless

Chapters
IF - ignore cover, 6s explode on bolters
SA - reroll a wound, ignore AP1
IH - 6+++, Double wounds table
RG - light & dense cover


Conclusion

The Predator has a disadvantage in raw weapon stats, but has a more capable gun against W3/5/6 as well as additional AP available. The marine Chapters also offer a ton more to the Predator than the Orders offer the Castigator.

If you're taking a chapter than offers nothing to the Predator then the Castigator will be better overall. There is no escaping this dynamic. Either you reduce the cost of Predators and they're more worth it in other Chapters or you leave it as is and it is only good in certain Chapters. That or you move to costing each unit differently across Chapters which is a nightmare.

Overall these two platforms seem equally capable.






   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Screw the Predator. Tanks (and monsters) in general need a massive boost.

Fixing the Predator would be like putting a band-aid over an 6" exit wound.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 jeff white wrote:
...Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?


Because the community spent all of 8th screaming about how horrible and unfluffy soup lists were.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Exalted Beastlord




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Screw the Predator. Tanks (and monsters) in general need a massive boost.

Fixing the Predator would be like putting a band-aid over an 6" exit wound.


Yep.

The best 'fix' for the predator currently is splitting the turret weapon in half and giving 2 of the result and 2 hbs to an infantry squad.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Screw the Predator. Tanks (and monsters) in general need a massive boost.

Fixing the Predator would be like putting a band-aid over an 6" exit wound.


Agreed. Barring a few exceptions, most monsters and tanks are a joke. It's baffling that a SHV like a Baneblade has less damage output than some infantry units, and is certainly more killable than two LR in most cases.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's put all the cards on the table.

Unit & Weapons
Castigator is 160 and has a 6++

4D3 S7 AP1 D2 - max of 24
9 S5 AP1 D2 - max of 18

Predator Destructor w/ 2 HBs is 160

2D3 S7 AP1/2 D3 - max of 18
6 S5 AP1/2 D2 - max of 12


"Doctrines"
Castigator gets 6++
Predator gets an additional AP in Heavy

"Super Docs"
Sisters 'super doc' is miracle dice. There is only one Sacred Right that the Castigator would benefit from and I imagine it will be the least used.

RG - +1 to hit and to wound in Tac
IH - reroll 1s in Heavy
IF - +1D w/ AC vs VEHICLE

Orders
VH 5+++ vs MW and reducing AP by 1 for AP1/2 seems meh at best
AS reroll one hit or one wound is ok
The rest seem useless

Chapters
IF - ignore cover, 6s explode on bolters
SA - reroll a wound, ignore AP1
IH - 6+++, Double wounds table
RG - light & dense cover


Conclusion

The Predator has a disadvantage in raw weapon stats, but has a more capable gun against W3/5/6 as well as additional AP available. The marine Chapters also offer a ton more to the Predator than the Orders offer the Castigator.

If you're taking a chapter than offers nothing to the Predator then the Castigator will be better overall. There is no escaping this dynamic. Either you reduce the cost of Predators and they're more worth it in other Chapters or you leave it as is and it is only good in certain Chapters. That or you move to costing each unit differently across Chapters which is a nightmare.

Overall these two platforms seem equally capable.







Capable of nothing. Both die in a single volley to the majority of current anti-tank weapons, both do significantly less damage than an equivalent point value of a better unit(eradicators or retributors respectively). They are neither as survivable or as potent as their closest peers. There's no place for either at their current point values. Which is why you never see them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/09 00:12:55


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 Grimskul wrote:
Agreed. Barring a few exceptions, most monsters and tanks are a joke. It's baffling that a SHV like a Baneblade has less damage output than some infantry units, and is certainly more killable than two LR in most cases.
It makes me sad to see things like that. I mean, I look at my big Guard tanks, and I see that I own three Macharius' (and 3 Baneblades, and 2 Shadowswords, a Hellhammer, and a Stormblade... ), and I know that 2 Russes will not only be more effective than a single Macharius, but won't cost CP and take up another detachment, will benefit from Regimental Doctrines and so on.

Why they're not HS slots like Tyranid Hierodules I will never know. Probably easier to kill than Hierodules now that I think about it...

Tanks/Monsters need a complete rethink. Not saying AV system - I think that ship has sailed - but they need more wounds, better saves (in some cases), certainly higher toughness, and maybe the odd wound-reducing special rule, or self repair/regeneration stuff.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Agreed. Barring a few exceptions, most monsters and tanks are a joke. It's baffling that a SHV like a Baneblade has less damage output than some infantry units, and is certainly more killable than two LR in most cases.
It makes me sad to see things like that. I mean, I look at my big Guard tanks, and I see that I own three Macharius' (and 3 Baneblades, and 2 Shadowswords, a Hellhammer, and a Stormblade... ), and I know that 2 Russes will not only be more effective than a single Macharius, but won't cost CP and take up another detachment, will benefit from Regimental Doctrines and so on.

Why they're not HS slots like Tyranid Hierodules I will never know. Probably easier to kill than Hierodules now that I think about it...

Tanks/Monsters need a complete rethink. Not saying AV system - I think that ship has sailed - but they need more wounds, better saves (in some cases), certainly higher toughness, and maybe the odd wound-reducing special rule, or self repair/regeneration stuff.


For sure. I think this was mentioned in the other thread about the artificial toughness ceiling created by GW, but the game designers definitely haven't made the most of the lack of a unit characteristic cap to their fullest. It's bonkers that SHV Baneblades aren't at least T9, or 2+ save baseline, and they could easily throw on an extra 10 or some odd wounds and it still wouldn't be quite worth it's current price. Especially now when holding objectives and taking objectives matter more than ever, having a baseline rule where a SHV counts as 10 models in terms of holding objectives could at least prevent a random two man squad from waltzing over an objective and holding it. These are units that should be commanding and priority targets with their mere presence, but taking them is usually a detriment to your army versus a boon. Them losing detachment traits if you don't take a full on SHV detachment is just salt in the wound.

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Black Knight wrote:

Now that the Sisters codex is out, we need to ask GW to address the elephant in the room : The Predator battle tank.

The new Castigator is superior to it in every way, whilst being CHEAPER in points cost.


It's not just the Castigator, it's the Leman Russ too. A Leman Russ Exterminator has a Heavy 4 Autocannon with the potential to become Heavy 8 if you move less than half its Movement characteristic. That's 170 points.

Look at the Castigator, it's getting 8 shots on average. 3 Heavy Bolters compared to 1. It's full movement characteristic. BS3+ and a 6++. All the while being 10 points cheaper than a base Exterminator, or 40 points cheaper if you gave that Exterminator sponson Heavy Bolters.
   
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ERJAK wrote:


Capable of nothing. Both die in a single volley to the majority of current anti-tank weapons, both do significantly less damage than an equivalent point value of a better unit(eradicators or retributors respectively). They are neither as survivable or as potent as their closest peers. There's no place for either at their current point values. Which is why you never see them.


Eradicators barely see time and would get outranged pretty hard.

ABs just went up in cost, so, 180 for 3 and they're not likely to get LOS with all of them T1.

Dark lances will light up ABs unless they're DA. On the flip side a predator still has smoke and can actually make use of the extra AP.

ABs average 6.2 / 9.7 on a raider. A Destructor averages 5.3.

180 / 6.2 = 29
160 / 5.3 = 30

So if sacrificing 180 points to kill 95 seems like a better bet then take ABs.


   
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In My Lab

Jarms48 wrote:
 Black Knight wrote:

Now that the Sisters codex is out, we need to ask GW to address the elephant in the room : The Predator battle tank.

The new Castigator is superior to it in every way, whilst being CHEAPER in points cost.


It's not just the Castigator, it's the Leman Russ too. A Leman Russ Exterminator has a Heavy 4 Autocannon with the potential to become Heavy 8 if you move less than half its Movement characteristic. That's 170 points.

Look at the Castigator, it's getting 8 shots on average. 3 Heavy Bolters compared to 1. It's full movement characteristic. BS3+ and a 6++. All the while being 10 points cheaper than a base Exterminator, or 40 points cheaper if you gave that Exterminator sponson Heavy Bolters.
The Exterminator is also one of the worst Leman Russ variants.

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 jeff white wrote:
The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?


The Mandalorian kicks ass. What's better than Lone Wold and Cub in Space when Cub is Baby Yoda?
   
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The Exterminator is also one of the worst Leman Russ variants.


Which is true, I was just giving an example of how points efficient the Castigator is for the firepower it has. To get a similar level of firepower for the Exterminator you'd need a Tank Commander, so 205 points and sponson heavy bolters which brings it up to 235 points.

Let's look at their battle cannon instead then. 165 points with their battle cannon and 3 heavy bolters. Off the top of my head it was D6 S9 AP-3 Damage 3. Which makes it better than the Guard battle cannon against vehicles, monsters, and TEQ's. Even with less shots I'm pretty sure it's going to be better against MEQ's thanks to the heavy bolters, and the fact there's no chance to roll 1 damage. The only thing a Guard battle cannon is better against is hordes, but even then, the Castigator has the anti-horde shell too.

The only variant that's better is the demolisher, which is the only variant you can take competitively. Even then, that flat damage 3 on the battle cannon does step on the demolisher cannons toes.
   
 
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