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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Simple change to alter current meta problems:

Standard multi melta: Assault 1, range 24", melta stats.

Any unit where the multi-melta replaces ONE other optional gun (e.g one lascannon, one heavy boltgun,one heavy flamer, etc) receives this gun statline.

Retributors, Devastators, Leman Russ sponsons, attack bikes, land speeders

Heavy Multi Melta: Heavy 2, range 24", Melta stats.

Any unit where the mm replaces TWO guns (twin lascannon) or where the mm is taken as a straight upgrade receives this gun.

Land Raider, Dreadnought, Eradicators, etc.

Imo: the Gladiator Valiant would be better off with standard rather than heavy multi meltas. It is currently too offensively powerful for its defensive capabilities and a proper points cost make its offense unbalanceable. It overkills things too hard to be useful unless vastly undercosted.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I would just keep the "2D6 pick highest" rule they had before.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




If it has 2 barrels, it should be heavy 2.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






dammit wrote:
If it has 2 barrels, it should be heavy 2.


I think that doesnt work in practice in certain unit configurations.

It's been one shot for ages and gw has balanced it against single lascannons, single plasma cannons, single heavy bolters on many units.

That's created the weird meta were in now with crazy attack bikes/devs/retributors.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Also you want to allow attack bikes to advance and fire their multi-melta without penalty?

Their d6+2 threat range is 32 inches.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 15:00:16


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






dammit wrote:
Also you want to allow attack bikes to advance and fire their multi-melta without penalty?

Their d6+2 threat range is 32 inches.


If its one shot, sure.

....do attack bikes advance and shoot assault weapons without penalty?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Attack bikes should be "fast anti tank"

They shouldn't be "pound for pound the best antitank by a mile"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 15:25:35


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




turns out its only heavy that only affects infantry. How bout that.

Still, you're giving the attack bikes 6 inches extra range on their 3 multi-meltas (they advance flat 6).
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

dammit wrote:
If it has 2 barrels, it should be heavy 2.


So Boltguns, Lasguns, Battlecannons, Heavy Bolters and Baneblade Cannons should also just be 1 shot, since they have 1 barrel?


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






dammit wrote:
turns out its only heavy that only affects infantry. How bout that.

Still, you're giving the attack bikes 6 inches extra range on their 3 multi-meltas (they advance flat 6).


Dividing their damage in half from their current state would seem, in my opinion, to be more than a fair trade-off.

I am also allowing retributors, devs, etc to move and shoot with them without penalty.

Because particularly with devs- that would seem to be the way to make Melta Vs Lascannon finally make sense.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Valkyrie wrote:
dammit wrote:
If it has 2 barrels, it should be heavy 2.


So Boltguns, Lasguns, Battlecannons, Heavy Bolters and Baneblade Cannons should also just be 1 shot, since they have 1 barrel?



The first 2 are, the 3/5th are replacements for blast templates, and sure, the fourth one should be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any unit where the mm replaces TWO guns (twin lascannon) or where the mm is taken as a straight upgrade receives this gun.


What other guns change their type by becoming 'twin'?. Both assault or both heavy surely?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 15:41:13


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Seems reasonable to me.

Might need points adjustments in places, might not.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 JNAProductions wrote:
Seems reasonable to me.

Might need points adjustments in places, might not.


Mostly I just think it's a fools errand to try and appropriately cost around the tripling of firepower of multimeltas on all legacy platforms.

Retributors in current state are just, seventh edition fire dragons level silly in how much they can delete any vehicle ever from the board. To balance current mms they have to be like 40pts.

It's great on, for example, dreads, just like how the change to "heavy plasma cannons" was great, because youre comparing them to two autocannons, two lascannons, two heavy bolters.


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Soooo.....would the Land Raider Achilles have two Twin "Heavy" Multi-Meltas, or the downsized version? It just wouldn't be as fun if I couldn't melt primaris tanks into slag with my "Old School" Astartes tank.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Soooo.....would the Land Raider Achilles have two Twin "Heavy" Multi-Meltas, or the downsized version? It just wouldn't be as fun if I couldn't melt primaris tanks into slag with my "Old School" Astartes tank.


im assuming that these multi-meltas are taking the place of the twin lascannons on the side of the land raider, so, yep. Those would become Heavy Multi-Meltas.

obviously if implemented you'd have to look at the intent behind each unit that mounts a multi-melta and determine what other weapons that unit has access to and what setup makes sense. The main point for me here is I think we're running into a situation like with Plasma Cannons. Certain units that mount Plasma Cannons are mounting one in place of 1 other competing weapon, in which case they were typically fine. Others, most notably dreads, were mounting one in place of 2 other weapons in which case the PC was never really a worthwhile choice, so they changed it to a "heavy plasma cannon" and bumped it to base 2 damage where it's more of a thing you'd consider.

The Gladiator's multi-meltas are replacing:

-a fething storm bolter
-a twin AP-1 storm bolter

Not even the latter is anywhere near the same weapon 'class' as a multi-melta. A pair of "Tempest bolters" remove 30pts of guardsmen, just over 1/2 of a squad, when in rapid fire range. A pair of multi-meltas by their current rules destroy any T7 3+ target with 10 or fewer wounds. That's the capability to very nearly oneshot tanks that are often 130-160pts.

If you put those on the same platform, you'll have to charge an INSANE amount of points for the multimelta upgrade to be balanced, which means you'll be turning that platform into a super crazy glass cannon assuming it's properly costed.

but when you compare the output of a multi-melta by current rules to TWO lascannons, then you start to say "ok, it should probably cost a hair more, but we're in the same ballpark, what we're looking at is the lower range, "high risk high reward" weapon between the two.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







dammit wrote:
If it has 2 barrels, it should be heavy 2.


Barrels != shots. Boltguns have one barrel and two shots, scatter lasers have six and four shots, Cyclone launchers have twelve missile tubes and yet somehow come away with only two shots.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Need to give MM the ability to be used as a flamer again.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
dammit wrote:
If it has 2 barrels, it should be heavy 2.


Barrels != shots. Boltguns have one barrel and two shots, scatter lasers have six and four shots, Cyclone launchers have twelve missile tubes and yet somehow come away with only two shots.


bolters are rapid fire 1. that 1 is important.

fix the other ones.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







dammit wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
dammit wrote:
If it has 2 barrels, it should be heavy 2.


Barrels != shots. Boltguns have one barrel and two shots, scatter lasers have six and four shots, Cyclone launchers have twelve missile tubes and yet somehow come away with only two shots.


bolters are rapid fire 1. that 1 is important.

fix the other ones.


You want a Cyclone launcher to fire twelve krak missiles?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Then reduce the missiles on the model.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






dammit wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
dammit wrote:
If it has 2 barrels, it should be heavy 2.


Barrels != shots. Boltguns have one barrel and two shots, scatter lasers have six and four shots, Cyclone launchers have twelve missile tubes and yet somehow come away with only two shots.


bolters are rapid fire 1. that 1 is important.

fix the other ones.


....this seems dumb, lol.

Every gun fires at the same rate in The Beard Dimension? A cannon = the fire rate of a machine gun?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I'm wondering what you do about the Assault Cannon. Does it fire six shots because it has six barrels, or one shot because it has one chamber and one muzzle?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 03:45:17


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





cyclone launcher USED to fire ALL KRAK missiles in one massive volley. 2nd edition was awesome.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

What do you do when weapons are modelled differently?
Sometimes a shotgun is modelled as one barrel.
Sometimes the same shotgun is modelled as twin barrel, because GW doesn't know what a magazine tube is.
Sometimes shotguns are modelled as double barrelled weapons.

I think it's entirely reasonable that rules are an abstraction of models. Especially when it's something as arbitrary as barrel count, thus completely ignoring rate of fire!

As for the subject at hand, I really like the suggestion.

Although the Land Raider Achilles replaces the twin-lascannon with a twin-multimelta, so that should probably be a twin-'light' multi-melta.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 10:35:02


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

I'm also in the "2 barrels 2 shots" crowd. I'd change meltas and multi meltas only in points actually, making them 15 and 35 ppm.

And the multi melta should definitely be a heavy weapon, since all squads that can have it choose from heavy weapons from their kits, see devastators or retributors. They all fire heavy weapons and a multi melta definitely looks like one.


 
   
 
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