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Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






It's been a while since i watched batreps on youtube, and man, i watched a few and it was total devastation for the necrons in each, against all opponents.

I started looking at just the ends of batreps this year and the necrons were getting destroyed in like 90-95% of them.

Have they just stopped winning battles this year?

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

(Shrugs) YouTube videos =/= reality.

In my circles & at my local shops we Necron players have enjoyed a fair degree of victory here in 2021.
How are they fairing on your groups/shops?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not completely. But the codex is definitely suffering from the normal GW codex creep syndrome. It is really annoying that they can't seem to resist increasing the power level mid-edition. The contrast between a lot of stuff in the Necron book and their rough equivalents in the Ad Mech book doesn't make for pretty viewing, for example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 17:06:09


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Power creep is normal but 9th's has been quite tremendous. I can recall specific books that were bad but not an edition which it was this severe overall.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Thin the Ranks changes also hit the codex extremely hard for no real reason. That change was so poorly thought out in practice, it ends up hurting a lot of marginal armies while not being enough to make it actually worth taking against elite infantry-based armies.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Power creep is normal but 9th's has been quite tremendous. I can recall specific books that were bad but not an edition which it was this severe overall.

What?
Are we playing the same game?

From Necrons to post-nerf Dhrukari all 9th armies are on a roughly even level. I reserve judgment for AdMech and Sisters until I have seen more of them.

If you can't remember an edition where it was worse, try to remember Chaos 3.5 or Eldar 4th, everything in 5th that had a codex compared to non updated armies, several contestors in 8th like Castellan, Ynnari and SM 2.0.

Compared to those times we have a perfect balance right now. For GW standards anyway.

   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Well it is always something like that. X is a problem in prior edition. Instead of fixing the actual problem, GW changes some core rule or mechanic and suddenly some other army gets super nerfed. Or there is some sales enticed stuff in the form, people take librarians and casters in general, but don't take, and more important don't buy, stuff like chaplains. So we nerf the librarians with abhore, nerf the smash hammers with some rules changes. And suddenly you have csm lords getting problems and GK/1ksons getting double dipped on secondaries.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Power creep is normal but 9th's has been quite tremendous. I can recall specific books that were bad but not an edition which it was this severe overall.


The only real powercreep books were the last two. SM was arguably weaker and DG and DA, while stronger than Necrons, weren't quite on the level of the best 8th books.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The creep has been there the whole time, it just kicked into overdrive with the DE and Ad Mech releases. It's easy to miss now going back because it wasn't so dramatic before DE, but the general trend of 9th has absolutely been for more power over time (aside from some of the SM supplements, which were pretty much lateral with the SM codex itself). Necrons were moderately weaker than SM, which were moderately weaker than DG, which were moderately weaker than DA (at least as of the release of the book), which were much weaker than DE and ad mech. You can quibble with some of the particular calls there if you really want, but the trend line is pretty clear overall.

Sisters seems to be the first book where it isn't on par or stronger with the prior releases, but that's surely just because of how ridiculous DE and ad mech are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 18:02:05


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sisters is also the first codex of 9th that feels nerfed compared to its 8th edition counterpart.

Which wouldn't be a bad thing considering the power of the Sisters 8th edition codex, if not for DE and Admech.

In general the balance of 9th edition codexes doesn't feel terrible or worst then it past but it certainly has outliers as always.

I just hope that this time GW doesn't screw it all up when they finally get close to a balanced situation by repeating the mistake of Marines 2.0
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Power creep is normal but 9th's has been quite tremendous. I can recall specific books that were bad but not an edition which it was this severe overall.

Already forgot 7th edition dekurions?

Not to mention Tau/Eldar in said edition who won by default without even using their rules with unending D spam, and the dekurions making the whole army 2++ or BS 2+, both rerollable, or outright immune to shooting? Nothing in 8th or 9th is even close to that.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Are we playing the same game?

From Necrons to post-nerf Dhrukari all 9th armies are on a roughly even level.

Apparently not, because no one playing 40K could miss Harlequins and Dark Eldar having winrate up to 80+% in some tournaments. But that must be my imagination, I guess, not easily verifiable fact. Oh wait.

And it's cute you think Dark Eldar "nerf" did anything, that tiny point hit and removing abuse sane players weren't even using changed nothing. Oh no, they will have model or two less while the actual big damage dealers remain unchanged, that will sure teach them, eh?

They are still the strongest army in the game even with "nerf", although admech might dethrone them soon, we'll see (although with expensive, rare models no one has, not with transports every DE player has 6+ of and can spam them at will)...
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

Irbis, your posts are funny.

It's good that 7th edition happened, because now all criticisms of any edition of 40K can be compared to it and rendered null. Pretty smart move by GW!

   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

 Irbis wrote:

Apparently not, because no one playing 40K could miss Harlequins and Dark Eldar having winrate up to 80+% in some tournaments. But that must be my imagination, I guess, not easily verifiable fact. Oh wait.

"80% winrate in some tournaments" is a pretty meaningless metric. If a single Harly player shows up and goes 4-1, the winrate of that faction for the tournament is at 80%. Both factions have a low player rate, so a single good or bad player will have a much bigger impact on it compared to say.. Space Marines.

40kstats.com puts Harlequins at 54% to 57% winrate, looking at the last two months or the whole edition respectively.
(For completeness sake: Pre-nerf Dhrukari are at around 70% for the whole edition, but that is not part of my argument)

And it's cute you think Dark Eldar "nerf" did anything, that tiny point hit and removing abuse sane players weren't even using changed nothing. Oh no, they will have model or two less while the actual big damage dealers remain unchanged, that will sure teach them, eh?

They are still the strongest army in the game even with "nerf", although admech might dethrone them soon, we'll see (although with expensive, rare models no one has, not with transports every DE player has 6+ of and can spam them at will)...

It is highly ironic that in your first paragraph you sarcastically joke about what you say isn't easily verifiable and then in the next you claim "nobody sane" was using the blender Succubus, Dark Technomancer, 2 free CP or conveniently priced units for WWSWF, while we can see those winning Dhrukari lists and they did contain this stuff.

Post-nerf Dhrukari tournament data is next to non existing at this point in time, so we have to wait and see. But the nerfs were exactly what most people on Dakka seemed to agree on.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 20:34:41


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Irbis wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Power creep is normal but 9th's has been quite tremendous. I can recall specific books that were bad but not an edition which it was this severe overall.

Already forgot 7th edition dekurions?

Not to mention Tau/Eldar in said edition who won by default without even using their rules with unending D spam, and the dekurions making the whole army 2++ or BS 2+, both rerollable, or outright immune to shooting? Nothing in 8th or 9th is even close to that.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Are we playing the same game?

From Necrons to post-nerf Dhrukari all 9th armies are on a roughly even level.

Apparently not, because no one playing 40K could miss Harlequins and Dark Eldar having winrate up to 80+% in some tournaments. But that must be my imagination, I guess, not easily verifiable fact. Oh wait.

And it's cute you think Dark Eldar "nerf" did anything, that tiny point hit and removing abuse sane players weren't even using changed nothing. Oh no, they will have model or two less while the actual big damage dealers remain unchanged, that will sure teach them, eh?

They are still the strongest army in the game even with "nerf", although admech might dethrone them soon, we'll see (although with expensive, rare models no one has, not with transports every DE player has 6+ of and can spam them at will)...


It was the DT nerf that was huge, a 60pts unit with the ability to kill 100pts of marines without trying is why DE was stomping the meta.

   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Tabletop Titans has fielded some pretty obviously terrible Necron lists against competitive lists for other factions. Bringing a Tesseract Vault against AdMech was... unwise, to say the least.
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon




UK

It's mainly Drukhari and Admech that Necrons will struggle with.

The other 9th Codexes are mostly a little more balanced amongst each other, although outliers like Blood Angels and White Scars are both incredibly good into Necrons despite having a concurrent codex and an 8th ed supplement.

However on the whole even a "competitive" Necron list won't actually look or be oppressively strong on the tabletop unless it's being piloted by a very good player. The army has a lot of limitations placed on any potential exploits or strong combinations it can do. 20 Novokh Warriors with Anrakyr, a Chronomancer and TSK nearby are genuinely frightening.... but they've still only got 12" guns, one of its buffing characters is supremely vulnerable to anti-tank fire and you're approaching something like 900 points for all of that to actually work properly.

And to be fair, a lot of 9th ed Codexes and their competitive lists don't really look all that skewed or obscenely oppressive on paper, nor feel absurd to play against in an actual game. It's just Drukhari and now Admech have some dumb interactions within them that lead to 20 ranger blobs just deleting anything in the game they look at. Sisters are a bit more of an unknown quantity at this point since they saw a lot of changes but it's a little eye-raising that all repentia lost were AAC but went down to 14ppm. That's fething nuts.

Nazi punks feth off 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ad Mech is basically just Necrons, but much better.
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






yukishiro1 wrote:
Ad Mech is basically just Necrons, but much better.


It hurts that fluffwise the Admech are way more technological regressive and backwards compared to Necrons but in game the faction is so heads and above superior to what Necrons are limited to.
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 Da Boss wrote:
Irbis, your posts are funny.

It's good that 7th edition happened, because now all criticisms of any edition of 40K can be compared to it and rendered null. Pretty smart move by GW!


When the critique is 'I don't think power creep has ever been this bad before!' 7th edition is a very appropriate answer. Did you read the post or were you just waiting on that zinger? Which was wasted, btw.


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Considering that Necrons are one of the faction that is regularly seen in tournament's top 4s, I would just dismiss this thread as the OP being poorly informed.

Nothing to see here.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Irbis wrote:


And it's cute you think Dark Eldar "nerf" did anything, that tiny point hit and removing abuse sane players weren't even using changed nothing. Oh no, they will have model or two less while the actual big damage dealers remain unchanged, that will sure teach them, eh?

They are still the strongest army in the game even with "nerf", although admech might dethrone them soon, we'll see (although with expensive, rare models no one has, not with transports every DE player has 6+ of and can spam them at will)...


Drukhari got a massive nerf, and a required one. Now their most OP list (DT liq spam) doesn't exist anymore. It wasn't simply toned down, but completely removed.

Codex Drukhari is good, but really people need to stop overreacting and learn how to play against something that isn't SM (or other elite oriented army like custodes or termy based deathguard) and accept to change their lists accordingly.

As other said Necrons are still very good, even at tournaments levels.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 07:07:05


 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






ccs wrote:
(Shrugs) YouTube videos =/= reality.

In my circles & at my local shops we Necron players have enjoyed a fair degree of victory here in 2021.
How are they fairing on your groups/shops?


Ok, why would people doing youtube batreps stage them? I mean i can see gw doing it for marketing reasons, but why would independent video makers?

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 Matt Swain wrote:
ccs wrote:
(Shrugs) YouTube videos =/= reality.

In my circles & at my local shops we Necron players have enjoyed a fair degree of victory here in 2021.
How are they fairing on your groups/shops?


Ok, why would people doing youtube batreps stage them? I mean i can see gw doing it for marketing reasons, but why would independent video makers?


Ok, let's assume who ever your watching aren't shills casting the new hotness they got sent in favorable light....

You can't watch a handful of vids & seriously draw the conclusion "Necrons aren't winning anymore!" That's absurd.
That's why I asked how the Necron players are fairing in your local scene atm.
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan




Florida

I hope not! I just got my Necron army at the point I can field it, hahaha

No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Matt Swain wrote:
ccs wrote:
(Shrugs) YouTube videos =/= reality.

In my circles & at my local shops we Necron players have enjoyed a fair degree of victory here in 2021.
How are they fairing on your groups/shops?


Ok, why would people doing youtube batreps stage them? I mean i can see gw doing it for marketing reasons, but why would independent video makers?


They're not staged, it's just a very small sample size you're dealing with. Many batrep channels are limited in what models they have available and also by familiarity with a given army since they usually have to play all armies but may not be that proficient with all of them.

The point is, using YT channel performance as a measure of an army's overall power is a bad idea, especially when there is much better data out there.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Still going strong here. I'm not sure what people think should be happening. If you lost and you scored 75 to 90 - that isn't a blow out.

Siegler is presently 6-0 with Tau at ACO having beaten unFAQed DE thrice, DA once, SW, and another Tau. Yes, he's an exceptionally good pilot. He also opted to not do the same old list and is running one Riptide, two Devilfish, tons of Breachers, a huge blob of Crisis, and some other support stuff.

Does that mean you can go out and do awesome with Tau? No. It would be hard mode, but what it should tell you is if you practice and change the way you approach the game you can be more successful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 14:22:20


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




What does Richard Siegler finding a Tau list that works in 9th have to do with whether Necrons are suffering from codex creep?

The whole point with Siegler's Tau list is that it is a very particular kind of list designed to do a very particular kind of thing, because the Tau book doesn't work overall in 9th. He'd be the first to tell you that T'au are not in a good place as a whole, even though his particular list works.

If anyone said it's impossible to win with Necrons that is obviously wrong. But if anything, Siegler's Tau list is an illustration of a very similar phenomenon to what is happening to Necrons, though Necrons don't have it as bad as Tau.

You see it with something like CWE too. CWE as a book sucks in 9th, but there are a few good units that do see competitive play. That doesn't mean the book isn't junk, it's actually evidence that the book *is* junk.

Now the Necron book isn't junk the way the CWE and Tau books are junk. But it is already starting to feel dated in some ways, which is a bad sign for a 9th edition book.
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





On defense of some of the YouTube bat reps, I doubt many are staged. Tabletop Titans plays in real time so if they’re editing it, they need to go work for the nfl or something and make an actual fortune.

Necrons do feel very off though. They got murdered with the core keyword. Death guard might be the only other army that had such a limited pull for core. Their protocols are also clearly the worst of the one faction rules. They missed out on the D6 damage overhaul too. A lot of it feels like it was a beta test for the edition.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yep. There's a bunch of stuff in the Necron book that feels like it was never updated to 9th edition v. 1.0.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
On defense of some of the YouTube bat reps, I doubt many are staged. Tabletop Titans plays in real time so if they’re editing it, they need to go work for the nfl or something and make an actual fortune.

Necrons do feel very off though. They got murdered with the core keyword. Death guard might be the only other army that had such a limited pull for core. Their protocols are also clearly the worst of the one faction rules. They missed out on the D6 damage overhaul too. A lot of it feels like it was a beta test for the edition.

Regarding core we kinda got fethed over by our dreadnought equivalent being a Triarch unit. If there was going to be a core vehicle it'd be the Stalker, but it can't be because it's a Dynastic Agent... Really wish we could just pull the damn pilot out and make it an AI like it should be.
   
 
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