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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Games-workshop wanted to sell entire brand new armies with the primaris aesthetic/fundaments

If you want to argue that the old school dreadnoughts are still good, well yes marines love their dreadnoughts and GW wouldnt dare such sacrilege

   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Ah yes, the predator is bad because GW only wants to sell new models... like the new Sisters predator, which is the same chassis with different weapons and has basically the same problems
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




bat702 wrote:
Games-workshop wanted to sell entire brand new armies with the primaris aesthetic/fundaments


That certainly explains why the Primaris tanks are ALSO bad.
I think you need to rethink your argument. Primaris were terrible on launch. It took multiple iterations to make them functional, and a few more to make them decent, and they still lack basic functionality that Old Marines have (heavy/special/assault). The Primaris tanks are still just as bad or worse than their Old Marine equivalents.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The Sisters new battle-tank is better imo than the predator, also the new sister tank I guarantee you will make GW plenty of money


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The new primaris tanks arent as bad as the predator.. also people will buy those tanks anyways just to have one. The predator was over-costed for what it does in a much more obvious way. Also primaris were dominating the better marine lists and still are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 01:54:36


 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





When primaris came out the best marine lists were Guilliman+Razorbacks with scouts as your troops.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Gulliman was really common obviously, and GW made a fortune selling him, then they nerfed scouts and increased the costs of razorbacks.. and primaris marines were becoming more common by the day
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

bat702 wrote:
The Sisters new battle-tank is better imo than the predator, also the new sister tank I guarantee you will make GW plenty of money


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The new primaris tanks arent as bad as the predator.. also people will buy those tanks anyways just to have one. The predator was over-costed for what it does in a much more obvious way. Also primaris were dominating the better marine lists and still are.

Even if the Castigator is better than the Predator, it's still not likely to see table time at this point in time because it's not that good.

Which says a lot on how bad the Predator is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 02:09:38


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







The Predator is bad because GW didn't bother to do some basic math/playtesting when writing the 8e Indexes and made all tanks bad, and then couldn't be bothered to fix the actual problem.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Predator is bad because GW didn't bother to do some basic math/playtesting when writing the 8e Indexes and made all tanks bad, and then couldn't be bothered to fix the actual problem.

I think they did playtesting, but early 8th seemed to also be when GW wasn't actually listening to playtesters most of the time. It seems to be getting better, but the dev team has a track record of nerfing problems rather than bringing under-performing units up.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

This thread is click-bait. Change my mind.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




To argue this thread is click-bait is bad because I don't profit from it where as; its target is to show that games-workshop is more of a corporation looking out for the optimized profit vs the correlation of trying to feed the patronage aspect of its loyal fan base. This further exacerbates the fact that corporations are moving further and further into the aspect of getting max dollars (especially on the short-term) vs the idea of business morals that used to exist more prominently, and yet corporations are getting more and more treated like they are "living beings" and have the rights of things that are alive and feel pain, sorrow, etc.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Gibberish.

Its clickbait because you're posting a bad argument for attention and fake 'outrage.'

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Illinois

the predator has never been good.
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 Kommisar wrote:
the predator has never been good.

It was playable in 5th, but 5th was rather vehicle heavy.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 ClockworkZion wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Predator is bad because GW didn't bother to do some basic math/playtesting when writing the 8e Indexes and made all tanks bad, and then couldn't be bothered to fix the actual problem.

I think they did playtesting, but early 8th seemed to also be when GW wasn't actually listening to playtesters most of the time. It seems to be getting better, but the dev team has a track record of nerfing problems rather than bringing under-performing units up.


The wound counts, point costs, ROF numbers, blast weapon implementation, AP values, and to-wound table in the 8e Indexes read to me like rough drafts nobody thought about at all. And even if it's true "they did playtest it, they just ignored the results!" is for all purposes identical to doing no playtesting.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Do we really need yet ANOTHER thread about how bad the Predator (and tanks in general) are?

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 29 | Current main painting project: Nazgul
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 ZergSmasher wrote:
Do we really need yet ANOTHER thread about how bad the Predator (and tanks in general) are?


Some people hold out hope that if we shout loudly enough someone at GW will notice. Unfortunately for that to have a practical effect we'd probably have to try spamming GW's Facebook/Twitter, and then we'd just get blocked.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 AnomanderRake wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Predator is bad because GW didn't bother to do some basic math/playtesting when writing the 8e Indexes and made all tanks bad, and then couldn't be bothered to fix the actual problem.

I think they did playtesting, but early 8th seemed to also be when GW wasn't actually listening to playtesters most of the time. It seems to be getting better, but the dev team has a track record of nerfing problems rather than bringing under-performing units up.


The wound counts, point costs, ROF numbers, blast weapon implementation, AP values, and to-wound table in the 8e Indexes read to me like rough drafts nobody thought about at all. And even if it's true "they did playtest it, they just ignored the results!" is for all purposes identical to doing no playtesting.

Fair. I just know from listening to playtesters via podcasts and having them talk about pointing out problems and seeing the problems in the codexes only for GW to have to address them by FAQ later shows that they were working but it seems like the dev team wasn't listening, wasn't waiting for the feedback before they sent off the books to print or GW didn't trust them enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Do we really need yet ANOTHER thread about how bad the Predator (and tanks in general) are?


Some people hold out hope that if we shout loudly enough someone at GW will notice. Unfortunately for that to have a practical effect we'd probably have to try spamming GW's Facebook/Twitter, and then we'd just get blocked.

Probably easier to email the FAQ/Feedback address instead: 40kfaq@gwplc.com

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 03:45:11


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





These days, adjustments seem to be made based on tournament data; it is, after all, the best source for statistical analysis of performance. Playtesting pre-launch is one thing, but no matter how much you do, it's never going to provide as much data as the tourney circuit.

So you release a predator with a Fleur de Lis on it since Sisters are a license to print money, and you wait to see what happens on the Tourney circuit. Any adjustments that come to the Castigator can be assumed to be at least somewhat applicable to other predators as well.

As for GW using points to drive sales, and so on and so on: a corporation makes the most money when ALL of its customers are happy. So while tweaks to help underselling kits get a boost make sense, intentional nerfs make far less sense, because they diminish sales.

It's one of the reasons that I find some of the arguments on Dakka particularly problematic. This is not the first; it will not be the last.

And as for loyalty to older customers and legacy players, yes, it's been a while since we've had proof that GW is going to cater to us; I mean, personally I see the return of Trueborn and Blood Brides to be a compromise between giving older players SOMETHING and still holding to the principles of post-chapterhouse policy. Clearly other people don't see it that way, and I understand that.

But Kill Team Rogue Trader and BSF were very much proof that old players mattered to GW in 8th. We all talk with such certainty about what GW is or is not doing to cope with these damn shipping, trade policy and lock down issues, but we can only judge based on what we see, and GW might have stuff in the wings that's been pushed back which we don't even know about.

We've got reason to believe that there might be a new box of upscaled MKVI old Marines and a plastic Spartan on the way, so lets all do ourselves a favour and wait until we've kicked Covid's ass and the stupid shipping container crap is over before we start speculating about how much GW cares about legacy players when it is clearly in their best interest to sell as many copies of Every. Single. Kit. They. Make.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 04:10:10


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The assumption that a happy customer will be the best way to make money is a bit flawed, there are a near infinite ways to get to almost any destination in life. It assumes that smarter people can't take advantage of less informed or dumber people. The idea that customers return to do business with a certain merchant/corporation on a loyalty or loyalty-like basis is called patronage. Unfortunately, we live in what I would argue a corrupt world and the idea of patronage being the order of the day is a bit too ideal for how corrupt our world is becoming, aside from the evidence of increasing trends of corporations becoming less moral and more greedy imo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 04:25:49


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I actually reported this thread because do we really need another pretend predator thread so someone can bring up the same old argument?
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 ClockworkZion wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Do we really need yet ANOTHER thread about how bad the Predator (and tanks in general) are?


Some people hold out hope that if we shout loudly enough someone at GW will notice. Unfortunately for that to have a practical effect we'd probably have to try spamming GW's Facebook/Twitter, and then we'd just get blocked.

Probably easier to email the FAQ/Feedback address instead: 40kfaq@gwplc.com


Do you really think anyone reads that?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Of course, everyone knows that the important people in big corporations always read the suggestion box..
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do you really think anyone reads that?

When the KSons playerbase used the FAQ email to yell at GW about Aspiring Sorcerers not being able to use their smite they gave us free smite across our entire army, so somebody is definitely reading it.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Arachnofiend wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do you really think anyone reads that?

When the KSons playerbase used the FAQ email to yell at GW about Aspiring Sorcerers not being able to use their smite they gave us free smite across our entire army, so somebody is definitely reading it.


I'm going to go with "broken clocks" on that one.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 AnomanderRake wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Do we really need yet ANOTHER thread about how bad the Predator (and tanks in general) are?


Some people hold out hope that if we shout loudly enough someone at GW will notice. Unfortunately for that to have a practical effect we'd probably have to try spamming GW's Facebook/Twitter, and then we'd just get blocked.

Probably easier to email the FAQ/Feedback address instead: 40kfaq@gwplc.com


Do you really think anyone reads that?

More than I think shouting into the void is a productive use of my time.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Considering that if I were on the dev team, Dakka would be the very last place in which I look for feedback, then yes, sending those mails is much more productive than discussing here.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

In a vacuum they aren't bad, just like most of the other SM tanks, including the LR (Which I typically play ). They suffer from having 1000 choices for the same role, with several of them ending up better or much better. That's it. In fact even considering the possible opponents, it's mostly against other SM (plus a couple of other factions) that SM tanks struggle.

It's pretty common for orks or drukhari to play with a lot of vehicles including heavy stuff for orks (BW, Bonebreaka, Gunwagon, Kannonwagon, flyers, nauts) not just buggies, trukks and mek gunz, deathguards tanks are definitely a legit choice, even SoB ones. An Immolator for example has the same cost of a predator and has the same stats and it's not garbage; Exorcists took a hit but they also became cheaper and I bet we'll see them again.

SM players are really too negative about their vehicles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 06:58:34



 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Ork vehicles are cheap, well maybe not in money, and DE stuff was way undercosted, and just got a huge power lift thanks to a new codex. And they already had one of the most powerful rules a vehicle can have in 9th which is fly.
Saying that because those faction vehicles are fine is not a very convincing argument, same as the option one. So many units to pick from, when in reality most are dead options, that no one takes unless they have to.

Just look at GK for example. Forced to use understrenght versions of marine vehicles. Dreads without the -1D, weaker version of Land Raiders etc You think that is makes those vehicles fine, because people are forced to use them?

And immolator is not the same as a predator, It has a better gun, gets scout if dominions sit in it etc What does a predator get from being lets say in a IF or CF army?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




This thread turns out to be exactly the stupid kind of clickbait I expected when reading the title. OP could've brought up his "argument" in the ongoing predator thread but he insisted on opening up a new thread because... I don't know why.
   
 
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