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Made in ca
Enginseer with a Wrench






It is not uncommon for GW to use Age of Sigmar as a testing ground for new rules before implementing them, or a similar rule, in 40K.

Recently a new rule in building your army in matched play games was revealed for the new edition: reinforced units. Basically armies have a limited number of times they can increase the number of models in a unit beyond it's starting size; battleline can be increased to three times it's starting size and all others up to twice. In a 2000 point game you can increase a units size up to 4 times, with the restrictions above, that means that the new edition is encouraging armies made of MSU.

My question is if people think that something like this could come over to 40K were you have a limited number of times a unit can be increase past it's starting size regardless of points? This likely won't happen for awhile, either in a 9.5 edition or until 10th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 07:41:01


 
   
Made in us
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It's not that applicable to 40k. The difference in size between a minimum and maximum unit in Sigmar is way bigger; Space Marines come in units of 5-10, Stormcast come in units of 5-30.

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Made in ca
Enginseer with a Wrench






 AnomanderRake wrote:
It's not that applicable to 40k. The difference in size between a minimum and maximum unit in Sigmar is way bigger; Space Marines come in units of 5-10, Stormcast come in units of 5-30.


True, but it would still mean that in a SM army you would only be able to take a limited number of units above starting strength when now you can do it as many times you want as long as you have the points. Also the real issue is less the SM rather the armies that focus on large numbers like the Tyranids or AM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 08:02:03


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




For some armies it would be very stupid in matched play. Paladins for example have the option to take 4 heavy weapons if they have a squad that is 10 man strong. If they can be upgraded only twice, not being troop, then the unit can never reach the size of 10.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Ugh, I hope not.

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Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






It would be a very stupid rule to introduce in a system that already does a lot to encourage MSU except for maybe a few deathstars that would suffer from this issue at all. It also is aimed more against the few horde armies that are left than at any of the armies that currently are any kind of contender in the game.

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

People run anything other than MSU in 40K? Where? And you want to port over a rule to further encourage that? 40K almost needs the opposite rule.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Plenty of factions actually play units bigger than MSU currently. This was caused by many buffs becoming single target instead of aura.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

This rule just sounds like a hamfisted attempt to balance 8th edition WHFB.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 JohnnyHell wrote:
People run anything other than MSU in 40K? Where? And you want to port over a rule to further encourage that? 40K almost needs the opposite rule.


Ad mecha, orks, SoB under the new book, GK want at least one unit with 10 models to use their stratagems to full effect. There could be other armies too. I am not verse in GSC, Tau or mono demons.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Would be interesting if it came together with the permission to do these increases in unit size in datasheets that did not allow it before. 30 guardsmen infantry squads, 60 guardsmen conscripts, 15 Scion squads...

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in us
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NE Ohio, USA

A stupid rule in Sigmar ported into 40k will still be a stupid rule.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

God-Emperor help us if that travesty of a rule makes its way to 40k.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
People run anything other than MSU in 40K? Where? And you want to port over a rule to further encourage that? 40K almost needs the opposite rule.
Change the coherency rules to kick in at 11+ rather than 6+ and things will improve there.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 11:45:24


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in de
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Hamburg

The future is the unification of 40k und AoS similar to WM and Hordes.

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<Edit>

Opps.. wrong thread... Nothing to see here... move along

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 12:08:11


 
   
Made in us
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 Pyroalchi wrote:
Would be interesting if it came together with the permission to do these increases in unit size in datasheets that did not allow it before. 30 guardsmen infantry squads, 60 guardsmen conscripts, 15 Scion squads...

That sounds like work, though.

Also, I'd figure that vehicle squadrons were something of a hack to allow more vehicles to be brought under the pre-8e FOC, but I'd still be a little worried for them. I'm not sure how common they are these days (what with tanks generally being pants) and the expanded FOCs would lessen the impact, but now that extra detachments cost CP as well as an HQ tax the capacity to squad up vehicles becomes a bit more precious.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 wuestenfux wrote:
The future is the unification of 40k und AoS similar to WM and Hordes.


I could get on board for that. I have a lot of sigmar minis that never get any use because all my friends play 40k.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Would be interesting if it came together with the permission to do these increases in unit size in datasheets that did not allow it before. 30 guardsmen infantry squads, 60 guardsmen conscripts, 15 Scion squads...

Conscripts don't need bigger unit sizes, and people barely run 10 Scion Squads...you think they'd run 15?

You want bigger Guardsman squads, there's a stratagem for it.
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




I would be worried but thankfully GW never forgets Xenos when altering the core rules.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 wuestenfux wrote:
The future is the unification of 40k und AoS similar to WM and Hordes.


That's been a rumor since AoS came out. They're so far apart that it would take a very long time for this to ever happen, if at all.

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 KingGarland wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
It's not that applicable to 40k. The difference in size between a minimum and maximum unit in Sigmar is way bigger; Space Marines come in units of 5-10, Stormcast come in units of 5-30.


True, but it would still mean that in a SM army you would only be able to take a limited number of units above starting strength when now you can do it as many times you want as long as you have the points. Also the real issue is less the SM rather the armies that focus on large numbers like the Tyranids or AM.


Stormcast are the Space Marines of Sigmar. If you want to get into the actual horde armies Orks or Gaunts come in squads of 10-30, while there are Sigmar horde units that come in squads of 10-50 or 10-60.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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On the Internet

 KingGarland wrote:
It is not uncommon for GW to use Age of Sigmar as a testing ground for new rules before implementing them, or a similar rule, in 40K.

Recently a new rule in building your army in matched play games was revealed for the new edition: reinforced units. Basically armies have a limited number of times they can increase the number of models in a unit beyond it's starting size; battleline can be increased to three times it's starting size and all others up to twice. In a 2000 point game you can increase a units size up to 4 times, with the restrictions above, that means that the new edition is encouraging armies made of MSU.

My question is if people think that something like this could come over to 40K were you have a limited number of times a unit can be increase past it's starting size regardless of points? This likely won't happen for awhile, either in a 9.5 edition or until 10th.

I don't think so because AoS is likely doing this to balanced the increased ways you can use command abilities to include unit champions. Plus most of their units start at 10 models, not 5 so MSU play in AoS is a different kettle of fish.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I've always found MSU over rated; new load out rules discourage MSU. Clearly 40k designers are thinking in the opposite direction.

As for oversizing Guard squads, I'd rather see Platoons return as a mechanic, because they were fluffy and unique to Guard.

As for the vehicle squadrons, I think tank commanders should refund CP for Spearheads.

And as for unifying AoS and 40k... Daemons are already there; I built a Daemon army for 40k specifically so that I'd have an army that I could drop into WFB/ AoS. Beastmen could port to CSM with a little love too. We'll take your Psykers... Ahem... Sorcerors and Wizards; Kharadon Overlords look okay...

And we should SHRED anything else. The day an arrow pierces Terminator armour without magical/ psychic augmentation is the day I will complain as much as some of our more notorious Dakkanauts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 17:51:58


 
   
Made in us
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PenitentJake wrote:
The day an arrow pierces Terminator armour with magical/ psychic augmentation is the day I will complain as much as some of our more notorious Dakkanauts.

The day is already here I am afraid.
   
Made in nl
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
God-Emperor help us if that travesty of a rule makes its way to 40k.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
People run anything other than MSU in 40K? Where? And you want to port over a rule to further encourage that? 40K almost needs the opposite rule.
Change the coherency rules to kick in at 11+ rather than 6+ and things will improve there.



Change coherency to base contact and/or return to blast with simple rules and a smart template, e.g. with a simple phone app, and that fixes everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 coblen wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
The future is the unification of 40k und AoS similar to WM and Hordes.


I could get on board for that. I have a lot of sigmar minis that never get any use because all my friends play 40k.

Give them bolters ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 17:52:02


   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

PenitentJake wrote:
I've always found MSU over rated; new load out rules discourage MSU. Clearly 40k designers are thinking in the opposite direction.

As for oversizing Guard squads, I'd rather see Platoons return as a mechanic, because they were fluffy and unique to Guard.

NO THANK YOU!

Platoons were a godawful mechanism that should have been gone ages ago. Good frigging riddance to that awful design choice.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 jeff white wrote:
Change coherency to base contact and/or return to blast with simple rules and a smart template, e.g. with a simple phone app, and that fixes everything.
Adding a phone app to the game would be the opposite of 'simple'. And I don't think anyone wants to return to the days of anal retentive players that measure out 2" between everything to minimise blasts or scattering every. Single. Template. All. The. Time.

Removing blast markers was good idea.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hard no. Phone templates can be an option, fine. But this game must be playable without a phone.

People's reliance on phones FOR EVERYTHING is one of the worst aspects of the 21st Century. Again I don't mind that it is POSSIBLE, I just don't want it to be NECESSARY.

It's the only way I can think of to make a game this expensive MORE classist.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 ClockworkZion wrote:

I don't think so because AoS is likely doing this to balanced the increased ways you can use command abilities to include unit champions. Plus most of their units start at 10 models, not 5 so MSU play in AoS is a different kettle of fish.


Aren't all the top builds for KO based around guys , and all of those come in squads of 5 and require 15 to be efficient with over stacking buffs. Same way with 30 SCE double brick drops or how the other dwarfs are run with multiple units of 20-30 dudes. I don't play AoS, but some of the feedback from people that play specific AoS armies could be describe as , very not happy that the entire army is suddenly illegal to be played. The polish skaven players whine so much it spills in to other subforums, because from what I understand they run their units at 30-40 man size, but the regular unit size is 10, so they can't even fit full of certain units to not lose all their special rules as soon as one rat dies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote:
Hard no. Phone templates can be an option, fine. But this game must be playable without a phon
.


I would like to see my opponents face when I pull out my moms old phone and inform them that for this game I would like to see no use of templates for either of the players, because of technical limitations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 18:03:02


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

Karol wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

I don't think so because AoS is likely doing this to balanced the increased ways you can use command abilities to include unit champions. Plus most of their units start at 10 models, not 5 so MSU play in AoS is a different kettle of fish.


Aren't all the top builds for KO based around guys , and all of those come in squads of 5 and require 15 to be efficient with over stacking buffs. Same way with 30 SCE double brick drops or how the other dwarfs are run with multiple units of 20-30 dudes. I don't play AoS, but some of the feedback from people that play specific AoS armies could be describe as , very not happy that the entire army is suddenly illegal to be played. The polish skaven players whine so much it spills in to other subforums, because from what I understand they run their units at 30-40 man size, but the regular unit size is 10, so they can't even fit full of certain units to not lose all their special rules as soon as one rat dies.

I'll be honest, I don't track the competitive meta. I only play locally though I'd need time to actually play to know more than the most surface level understanding of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, no templates please. I enjoy the extra half hour of free time not arguing about if the template is clipping that fifth model or not.

And electronics should remain optional for games. Not just to keep from further raising the cost of entry, but because the last thing you want is your phone dying during the game making it unplayable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 18:09:27


 
   
 
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