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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




There are nods in the lore to the AdMech's access to Psykers, both via the Magos Psykana and through arcane practices that sort-of-furtively resemble psychic stuff, in the same way that Sororitas miracles are DEFINITELY NOT latent psychic potential expressing itself. I'm planning to expand 30k's Cybertheurgy into a form of machine-controlled psychic expression employed by the AdMech in 40k, and I want to make it feel very different, more planned and controlled than true sorcery. This is definitely a D6+X Psyker, for one thing. These powers will all be buffs aimed at getting your units to do more, in the style of the old Tomb Kings magic. No access to Smite, either.

My current train of thought is that I'd like to make them "delayed" powers, that are cheaper or more flexible in exchange for only actually coming in play after a round of preparation. In other words, the equivalent of Warptime would be something like:
Blessing: Rite of Celerity has a warp charge value of 5. If manifested, select up to 3 friendly <FORGE WORLD> units (excluding AIRCRAFT) within 6" of this PSYKER. At the start of your next Psychic phase, one of the selected units can immediately make a Normal Move, Advance, or Fall Back as if it were your Movement phase.
Same benefit, but further range, lower WC, and more potential targets. In exchange, you have to do it a round in advance, and if it's not the buff you need anymore, too bad.

Alternatively, I thought of the opposite; bringing "forward" an action from the next battle round, i.e.
Blessing: Rite of Celerity has a warp charge value of 3. If manifested, select one friendly <FORGE WORLD> unit (excluding AIRCRAFT) within 6" of this PSYKER. At the end of your turn, that unit can make a Normal Move, Advance, or Fall Back as if it were your Movement phase. If it does so, that unit cannot be chosen to move in your next Movement phase.
That unit gets the same total Move that it normally would over two rounds, and can't move with this power before shooting/charging, like with Warptime. However, it still gets to avoid Advance/Fall Back limits next round, and this can get it out of a sticky situation ahead of your opponent's turn.

A third version removed any timing shenanigans from the powers themselves, so Rite of Celerity becomes a perfectly normal Warptime clone:
Blessing: Rite of Celerity has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, select one friendly <FORGE WORLD> unit (excluding AIRCRAFT) within 3" of this PSYKER. That unit can immediately make a Normal Move, Advance, or Fall Back as if it were your Movement phase.

Instead, the manner in which the power is cast changes;
Compile Code (Psychic Action - Warp Charge 4): A PSYKER unit from your army with the Cybertheurgy ability can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase. This action is completed at the start of your next Command phase. If completed, select one psychic power that unit knows, and manifest it using the Psychic test result for this action. Your opponent cannot attempt to resist that psychic power with a Deny the Witch test.
This is a bit more restrictive, since the Psyker can die partway through, but it allows the Psyker to choose the power when it's actually needed, so long as they actually stayed in range, and forces the opponent to blind-Deny.

Thoughts? Any of this sound fun to play with or against?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/14 05:31:57


 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






I'm not sure about the undenyable part in the last paragraph. If it's psychic it should be denyable. Otherwise it might be a big feelbad moment for psy-heavy armies that the cogboys have powers that cannot be messed with.

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Pyroalchi wrote:
I'm not sure about the undenyable part in the last paragraph. If it's psychic it should be denyable. Otherwise it might be a big feelbad moment for psy-heavy armies that the cogboys have powers that cannot be messed with.
The intent is that you can deny the initial Psychic Action, but not the power when it manifests. Otherwise the enemy would be able to try denying the Psychic Action on round 1, and then also deny the Psychic power on round 2.

I like the way it suggests the Cybertheurge isn't "really" a psyker, and is doing it through some kind of medium, but there are a lot more moving parts for a relatively straightforward effect, which is why I started looking more at just baking the delay into the power itself.
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Ah, now I understand. Yes that seems fair. I'm not experienced enough to have an educated opinion if this would be problematic, but from the general point of view it sounds like an interesting mechanic. Personally I find the version were you plan an action for the next turn cooler.

One might keep in mind though that AdMech currently seems rather strong so if they also get a Psy phase, other codices might need a buff.

Do you already have ideas for specific powers?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/14 08:29:44


~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I'd be up for the idea of Cybertheugy(sp?) and I think if it were implemented in 40k it'd just have to be in the psychic phase for simplicity. Was Cybertheugy even a psychic thing? I always thought it was just reprogramming them halfway through a battle.

I think it shouldn't be a psychic ability, and given that the new codex appears very strong at the moment I'd tone it down a fair bit, and introduce a mechanic similar to the 30k version where it becomes harder to cast on larger units. Here's my attempt:

A unit with the Controller keyword may attempt to cast one ability per turn from the list below, affecting a <Forge World> Cybertheugy unit within 9". To cast an ability, roll 2D6 and subtract the number of models in the affected unit. A unit may only be affected by Cybertheugy once per turn, and such powers last until the controlling player's next Command Phase where applicable.

For the sake of simplicity, such abilities are carried out in the Psychic Phase, but are not counted as Psychic Powers for any rules purposes.


Rite of Immolation: Choose a Vehicle unit within range. If the casting roll equals or exceeds the unit's Toughness value, the unit is destroyed. Do not roll to see if the vehicle explodes, it automatically does so. If the unit does not have the Explodes rule, any unit within 3" suffers a single Mortal Wound.

Mantra of Swiftness: If the casting roll equals or exceeds the unit's Move value, the unit may immediately Move or Fall Back as if it were the Movement Phase.

Rite of Repulsion: If the casting roll equals or exceeds the unit's Strength value, any enemy unit charging the affected unit must subtract 2" from any charge rolls.


If you roll a double 1 or 6 when casting a Cybertheugy power, something has gone wrong with the Holy Noosphere. The Controller and affected unit both suffer D3 mortal wounds (roll 1D3, they both suffer that number) in addition to any other effects. If the Controller is killed due to the ability, it immediately fails.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 10:02:58


   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Pyroalchi wrote:
One might keep in mind though that AdMech currently seems rather strong so if they also get a Psy phase, other codices might need a buff.
The way I see it, that depends on what the Psychic phase does; whether it does anything they can't currently do, or does it substantially better, and how strong those PSYKERS are. You could ditch all PSYKERS from ASTRA MILITARUM without changing the faction's power much, because they're so bad. Conversely, you could change the DRUKHARI Medusae into a Smite-only PSYKER with a 12" range, and it wouldn't be a huge buff to the (already strong) faction much, because that's... really just what it's already designed to do.
 Pyroalchi wrote:
Do you already have ideas for specific powers?
Yeah, it's modelled at least partly on Nehekhara's old magic in WHFB, so entirely buffs/extra actions. That also fits pretty well with AdMech's existing "Tech-Priests as buff engines" dynamic, and with the idea of delaying; you have to pick the right buff for next round.

The main concepts would be Extra Move (a la Warptime), Extra Fight (perhaps 1A per model, but the point is that you have to get that unit into combat and keep them there), Extra Shoot (with halved range, so you have to be sure you're manoeuvred right), either +1Sv or +1 Inv (choose when casting, know what your opponent will have), probably something to do with Canticles/Doctrinas that haven't been used yet or aren't being used right now (so you're limiting your choices for Canticles/Doctrinas this round), and a charge boost with an extra benefit when charging (so you'll want the unit to be within 12" but not actually in combat).

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'd be up for the idea of Cybertheugy(sp?) and I think if it were implemented in 40k it'd just have to be in the psychic phase for simplicity. Was Cybertheugy even a psychic thing? I always thought it was just reprogramming them halfway through a battle.
Yes, the original 30k Cybertheurgy was essentially just the Datasmith's reprogramming action, but at range. I'm specifically rewriting/reimagining it as an AdMech psychic discipline run by machines through the Empyrean, which can apply to more units than just the robots; I might rename it if that'll cause confusion, or develop more in-depth lore of how it developed into that post-Heresy. If it wasn't psychic, it'd just go in the Command or Movement phase along with most of the other AdMech abilities.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I feel like the easiest way to solve this, isn't by making an Ad-Mech special character as a Psyker but by adding to Agents of the Imperium.

GW could add Astra Telepathica units to the list of Agents of the Imperium. Perhaps with faction specific powers to represent the types of psykers those factions would request from the Telepathica.

Current there's 4 units this would work for:
- Aradia Madellan
- Astropaths
- Primaris Psykers
- Wyrdvane Psykers

Now Astropaths and Wyrdvance Psykers definitely make the most sense. Every Imperium faction needs Astropaths to communicate across the Void. While Wyrdvance Psykers are basically your psychic equivalent to Servitors, in terms of their role. They do all of your basic psychic tasks and are easily replaceable.

While I'm on the topic of Imperial Agents this would be the perfect opportunity for GW to add things like Rogue Traders as choices to any Imperium army. Characters like Elucia Vhane.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/15 00:16:47


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I like Valkyrie's suggestions. I'm a little confused as to what it is we're trying to represent though. Are we talking about some sort of mechanicum psyker, or just the various bits of possibly-supernatural cyberpunk wizardry they regularly pull off? Or like, the once a millenia weird stunts like the ones from Gods of Mars? That last one seems like it's too rare and uncontrollable to have a datasheet for. If you're just talking about like, logging into the noosphere to optimize some code in the heat of battle or shutting down an enemy machine spirit, something like Valkyrie's suggestions ought to work.

As an alternative, I kind of like the idea of just letting mechanicus characters spend their turns performing actions that serve as long-ranged buffs. Like they're in a "trance" as their minds watch the battle through the noosphere and manually toggle settings on various units or lend a skitarii arquebusier the benefits of some advanced targeting data or what have you. If you make the action take long enough, you create an interesting incentive for your opponent to try to assassinate the character before the buff can kick in while also justifying giving the buff more range or oomph.

So maybe something like...
* A character starts the action in the ommand phase.
* The action is completed at the beginning of your next command phase.
* When the action is completed, select form a list of buffs.

Possible buffs:
* Noospheric Insight: +1 BS or WS to a mechanicus unit or fortification anywhere on the table until the end of your turn.
* Cybersanctic Possession: Immediately resolve a shooting attack with one ranged weapon of a single enemy Vehicle anywhere on the table. You are treated as the controlling player until the attack is resolved.
* Wetware Bypass: Select an allied mechanicus unit anywhere on the table. Until the start of your next command phase, roll a d6 each time a model in that unit would be removed as a casualty. On a 5+, fire a weapon or resolve a single melee attack with that model before removing it form the table.

No extra rolling to resolve the powers. Powers can't be denied (seems more appropriate if this is a noospheric ability). Get a little mileage out of hte Actions mechanic. Gives the army a unique feel. Gives your opponent a reason to consider fielding sniper rifles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 04:16:56


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Wyldhunt wrote:
I like Valkyrie's suggestions. I'm a little confused as to what it is we're trying to represent though. Are we talking about some sort of mechanicum psyker, or just the various bits of possibly-supernatural cyberpunk wizardry they regularly pull off?
The former, a Cult Technomancer/Magos Psykana, but interpreted through the lens of the latter; to my mind, a Mechanicus Psyker wouldn't be tossing around Smite, they'd effectively be a Shadowrun Technomancer, delving directly into the noosphere and achieving impossible, supernatural feats of logic-manipulation through psychic means.

There is lore that the AdMech have psykers and psychic technology - it's just very low on detail and prominence, and much of that technology was probably outlawed by the Emperor when he first absorbed Mars. If nothing else, they make geller fields, psychic suppression collars, psyocculums, psychic hoods, psytitans, etc, and there's a whole Forge World pumping out psycannons for the Grey Knights.

And yeah, aside from losing Deny, it might be best to just ditch the whole Psychic angle. That does leave me with, unfortunately, just another AdMech character with a system of granting alternate buffs to units around them. A bit annoying.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

With the rise of Blackstone as a material, we have some missed opportunities.

Anyways the best option for AdMech is not to add psykers by themselves but rather to add machines with psykers caged within them.

Dan Abnett had a variant of the Stalk Tank in one of his novels. It ditched the 'gunner' in the exposed top bit for a psyker in a containment vessel. Something like that would be aces.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Kanluwen wrote:
With the rise of Blackstone as a material, we have some missed opportunities.

Anyways the best option for AdMech is not to add psykers by themselves but rather to add machines with psykers caged within them.
My feeling is that any psyker which takes to the battlefield as part of the Adeptus Mechanicus forces is either going to be a) a brain in a jar, effectively just reduced to a supernatural power supply or computing system for a weapon or vehicle, b) a psychic Tech-Priest (Magos Psykana, Machine-Touched, Technomancer, whatever) whose powers are fused with technology to produce machine-miracles. They could also employ a gaggle of psychic servitors (in the style of Transmat Links) overseen by a Tech-Priest, but that seems far too unreliable and fleshy for the Mechanicus to use it as a serious battlefield formation, and faces thematic overlap from the Wyrdvane Psykers.

Actual, living human psykers in cages - as opposed to just brains in jars - feels like something that would only show up in the Ministorum/Sororitas armies, as a "penitent witch" vehicle or walker with a captured heretic kept in electro-stocks and forced to channel their agonised psychic energies through coil-pylons.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




RevlidRas wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
I like Valkyrie's suggestions. I'm a little confused as to what it is we're trying to represent though. Are we talking about some sort of mechanicum psyker, or just the various bits of possibly-supernatural cyberpunk wizardry they regularly pull off?
The former, a Cult Technomancer/Magos Psykana, but interpreted through the lens of the latter; to my mind, a Mechanicus Psyker wouldn't be tossing around Smite, they'd effectively be a Shadowrun Technomancer, delving directly into the noosphere and achieving impossible, supernatural feats of logic-manipulation through psychic means.

There is lore that the AdMech have psykers and psychic technology - it's just very low on detail and prominence, and much of that technology was probably outlawed by the Emperor when he first absorbed Mars. If nothing else, they make geller fields, psychic suppression collars, psyocculums, psychic hoods, psytitans, etc, and there's a whole Forge World pumping out psycannons for the Grey Knights.

And yeah, aside from losing Deny, it might be best to just ditch the whole Psychic angle. That does leave me with, unfortunately, just another AdMech character with a system of granting alternate buffs to units around them. A bit annoying.

Ah. If the goal is to represent an actual psyker that just happens to work for the admech (and has tech-related powers), I'd actually be more inclined to just use standard psyker mechanics. If it's literally a human psyker using the warp to do something supernatural, that seems like the sort of thing that could result in perils and having your powers shut down by enemy psykers, culexus assassins, etc.

Maybe we ought to back up a step and identify the elevator pitch for this psyker. He's a mechanicum affiliated psyker who does... what exactly? If he's a semi-conventional psyker with a tech focus, you could probably just give him access to the Iron Hands psychic powers and call it a day. If he's doing deckery things then I have to wonder if he'd really even be on the battlefield in the first place. I could see the mechanicus using energy manipulators as components in plasma generators/experiments. Diviners could be used to perform enhanced mostly-tech-based divinations. Matter manipulators could be used to create superior cyborgs alongside a biologis or to grant impossible properties to material components. The sorts of things that might be deemed to valuable to put such a carefully cultivated tool (the psyker) on the front lines. Plus, your average tech priest can jack into the noosphere or local systems to basically deck their way through cyberspace and make things happen.
   
 
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